Christians: What's your relationship with the dead?

reply to post by FlyersFan


Very true on the demons. All they know is hate. The only one who is very crafty and a master deceiver is satan. He will trick you into thinking he is of good.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Please provide the Bible verses where Eve was able to detect the 'HATE' coming from the Serpent to warn her that she was in the presence of a demon and which would help her not be led into error....

Demon can produce signs and lying wonders and be very charming or appealing to someone and induce all manner of feelings in someone. When humans seek out the Incubi and Succubi demons for sexual relations with them they don't describe the 'HATE' ...

If a demon can get a person to doubt the Word of God by giving a person an 'experience' whether good or bad then they have set out what they have desired to achieve and it is apparent from this thread just how many people are all too happy throwing out the plain Word of God.

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
There is no need to ask a Christian what they believe, just ask what the Bible teaches...as most Christian's don't actually follow the Bible on what it teaches concerning the state of the dead, because they have been deceived by false teaching, and the works of the fallen angels impersonating their loved ones.


The Bible makes it clear that the dead play no further part of any sort in the affairs of this world anymore, that they known nothing, have none of their own thoughts/consciousness and that they remain in the ground on this Earth (with only a few exceptions).


It is clear that they remain in the grave on this Earth until the second coming when they are then raised up, the idea of someone typically going straight to Heaven upon death is unbiblical.

The dead not in Christ
Covered in Revelation chapter 20 - they will be raised up at a later time (the second resurrection done after the 1000 years spent in the Heavenly city) where they are made aware of their sentence, will understand it is just and be erased from existence until they are stubble/ashes on the ground, body and soul burnt until completely gone (no burning forever but consequences of their actions in this life last forever as they get no second chance at another life)

Common Rebuttal refuted back
Some may like to cite the story of the thief on the cross seemingly that he is promised that he will go straight to Heaven that day upon his death. Let's look at this passage more closely:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you, Today shall you be with me in paradise.

'And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you today, you shall be with me in paradise.'


This word 'gods', elohim, is a referencing to celestial beings i.e angels or in this instance the fallen angels that reside in the Earth.

The Bible gives strong warning about spiritism and those who seek to consult the dead ( Deuteronomy 18:10-11, Leviticus 20:27). The warning is for our own benefit as the fallen angels merely seek to lead us into deception and God wants us to be spared from that by not giving them any permission to be able to.

Anyone seeking to consult 'Mary' or any of the 'Saints' for their inter-secession before God have another thing coming. The dead will be doing absolutely nothing on your behalf according to the Bible

Some great teachings from the bible there.
How any Christian can have another opinion surprises me when what is taught is so clear.

I agree as a Christian that the dead are dead. I would add any other worldly connections would be demonic in nature.
Its not uncommon for demons to mask themselves as family members.

Satan's Secret: Exposing the Master of Deception and the Father of Lies (book)
They must disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, or they would be rejected by the seekers of truth, because God warns us not to "be partners with demons", as 1st Corinthians 10:20, attests to, and one only ... Why is it that so many are astonished when they are informed of secrets and knowledge from these beguiling spirits when they disguise themselves as our dead relatives and friends?

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by wildtimes
I don't believe I've ever been approached by a demon,

I have. If a demon is near you .. you will know it. You won't have to ask yourself .. 'geee .. could it be a demon'. You KNOW it. It HATES .. and HATES .. and HATES ... and you can feel all the hate focused on you. It's like it's pure hate and you are the only thing it is thinking about and the only thing it's looking at.

I couldn't see it. But I was absolutely sure when it showed up.

BTW .. this happened when I was a Chaplain Assistant in the Army.
It happened in the Army Chapel in which I worked at.

Demons are real.
They couldn't 'comfort' anyone.
They simply aren't capable.

Satan is the father of lies, demons are liars.
They may not be capable of comforting anyone but they could surely pretend to comfort people. Anyone can pretend to care and show the correct emotions needed.
That is what demons do.

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
Please provide the Bible verses where Eve was able to detect the 'HATE' coming from the Serpent to warn her that she was in the presence of a demon and which would help her not be led into error....

1 - Please provide proof that Eve actually existed and isn't just the Summerian creation myth adopted by the Jews and retold as their own with their own spin on it. Good luck with that.

2 - Please provide proof that the bible is the only source of information of value as far as knowing what is happening in the spirit world. Good luck with that.

FACT ... I encountered a demon while working as a Chaplain Assistant for the US Army in Japan.
FACT ... It was invisible and appeared out of nowhere.
FACT ... it was PURE HATE. HATE. HATE. It was a tangible HATE and it stood next to me.
FACT ... It was as if all that HATE and all it's attention was focused on me. It HATED ME.
FACT .. it would be IMPOSSIBLE for something of that much HATE to 'console' anyone.

There may be different demons with different 'personalities' but the demon I encountered was absolute and pure HATE .. and it was all directed my way. That's just the absolute truth and fact of the matter.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Please provide proof that Eve actually existed and isn't just the Summerian creation myth adopted by the Jews and retold as their own with their own spin on it.

This is the kind of question I expect to hear from an atheist

Not surprising coming from Catholic sympathises just what regard the the Bible is held in ....and why they allow the Pope to say such blasphemous things as considering evolution as legitimate when there is no good evidence for it at all. I guess when the Pope calls himself above the Bible and equivalent to God on Earth, is perceived to be allowed to change the Bible and add to it however way he deems fit then you have his followers that have such a weak respect for what the Bible has to say.

Matthew 4:4 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"

Galations 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

As a person who is supposedly a Christian, is it necessary that others need to back up the Bible for you or is the 'God ' you follow so weak and deceiving that His Word can't be preserved and promises can't be trusted and it is all based on made up myth.

Perhaps it would be better if I just follow the pagan myths of venerating the 'Queen of Heaven' (the same 'Queen of Heaven' that the Bible condemns in Jeremiah to get myself in line with Catholic authority.) or maybe the Catholic Egyptian mythology from the Amduat that upon death you either go to the good place or the bad place forever. Let's see what the Bible has to say about the Catholic/Egyptian doctrine of eternal torment

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day comes, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that comes shall burn them up, says the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

So how would you like me to prove that God created Eve? ...
- Should I prove that humanity is only 6000 odd years old (would that suffice)?
- Should I prove that it is impossible through natural genetic processes for us to evolve from pond scum (and that there is no intermediate fossils) and thus the image of God isn't pond scum???

2 - Please provide proof that the bible is the only source of information of value as far as knowing what is happening in the spirit world. Good luck with that.

Hmm, I wonder why it is the case that the Catholic church says:

People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists
source: St. Catherine Church Sentinel, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995.

The Adventists are the only body of Christians with the Bible as their teacher
"Rome's Challenge" p.2 Rome's Challenge

Now if the Adventist Church says that according to the Bible what Rome (the Catholic Church) bases it's doctrines on that are different to the Adventist Church are unscriptural and that God never gave Rome any authority to change the Bible or add anything to it then that means that the Catholic Church agrees that the supposed scriptures they used are not what the Bible intended them to be, that they have deliberately misrepresented the Bible for their own gain.

Guess what the Adventist Church also says (after doing scriptural analysis), that the Roman Catholic Church was given its 'power, throne and great authority from Satan', that it is the persecuting sea beast power of Revelation 13 and 'little horn' Daniel 7...and the Catholic Church themselves agree we are scripturally accurate. So if this 'Church' honors people with calling them Saints and saying we should pray to them then should we trust their scriptural authority?

Adventist say their is no authority outside of the Word of God, Catholic Church agrees that we are scripturally accurate therefore according to your own authority, anyone who wishes to follow the Creator of the universe should not seek authority from anything other than the Bible (KJV, not the Catholic versions of it of course).

Testimony from an ex-Satanist (Roger Moreau) about the state of the dead deception by Satan

reply to post by adjensen

My wife passed away in March 2010, and I have had numerous signs and experiences that tell me that she is still with me. Prior to her death, which was unexpected at age 46, I had no opinion as to whether Christians are "sleeping" until the final judgement, or aware, and with Christ in a spiritual form, now there is no question in my mind.

That must have been very tough for you Ad. My sympathy and prayers.

OP I don't want to get on your bad side here. I respect you as the author of many great threads here with-in.
But......I have to say I consider to even speak of the dead in this manner is very impolite.

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
This is the kind of question I expect to hear from an atheist

You don't have to believe in the Old Testament to be someone who believes in God or in Christ.
To think that you do have to buy into the myths of the old testament in order to believe in God ..
that's myopic and absurd.

Not surprising coming from Catholic sympathises just what regard the the Bible is held in ...

You really ought to get over the 'Catholics hate the bible' fundamentalist christian bunk.
That simply isn't true. Catholics interpret the bible differently than you.

Perhaps it would be better if I just follow the pagan myths of venerating the 'Queen of Heaven'

oh blah blah blah ... off topic attempt at an insult, and trying to jab at Catholic beliefs in regards to Mary and the dead. Deflection. Again .. answer the question. Provide proof that Eve actually existed and that the Adam and Eve story isn't a recycled Summerian Creation Myth.

Should I prove that humanity is only 6000 odd years old (would that suffice)?

You can't.

Should I prove that it is impossible through natural genetic processes for us to evolve from pond scum (and that there is no intermediate fossils) and thus the image of God isn't pond scum???

Evolution vs Creationism is a useless debate.
1 - There is no definitive evidence to support absolutely one or the other.
2 - It doesn't matter how God made people. God can use whatever method He wants.

2 - Please provide proof that the bible is the only source of information of value as far as knowing what is happening in the spirit world. Good luck with that.

Hmm, I wonder why it is the case that the Catholic church says:

I don't care what the Catholic Church says ... I said to YOU ... go ahead and try to prove that the bible is the ONLY source of information of value as far as knowing what is happening in the spirit world. YOU quoted scripture as if it were the end-all authority on the matter. (which it isn't). Go ahead and prove that your cherry picking of scripture is the only possible reality when it comes to the spirit world .. and that the bible contains ALL POSSIBLE information in regards to the spirit world. Again .. good luck with that.

God never gave Rome any authority to change the Bible

The bible is a CATHOLIC BOOK. It was collected and written and affirmed by the CATHOLIC CHURCH back in the 300s. Therefore, if the Catholics wanted to change the bible - which they didn't, but Martin Luther did - IF they wanted to change it .. they could do whatever they wanted to do with it. IT's A CATHOLIC BOOK.

For reference ...

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
Please provide the Bible verses where Eve was able to detect the 'HATE' coming from the Serpent to warn her that she was in the presence of a demon and which would help her not be led into error....

Like I basically said ... IRRELEVANT. What the creation myth of Adam and Eve says in regards to this is IRRELEVANT when it comes to reality and experiences people have with demons.

The one I encountered was pure HATE. ABSOLUTE HATE. It couldn't possibly pose as a 'being of light' Other demons may be able to .. or the devil may be able to .. but the one I encountered was absolute and pure HATE. HATE directed at me and totally concentrated on me. It was TANGIBLE.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
Please provide the Bible verses where Eve was able to detect the 'HATE' coming from the Serpent to warn her that she was in the presence of a demon and which would help her not be led into error....

1 - Please provide proof that Eve actually existed and isn't just the Summerian creation myth adopted by the Jews and retold as their own with their own spin on it. Good luck with that.

2 - Please provide proof that the bible is the only source of information of value as far as knowing what is happening in the spirit world. Good luck with that.

FACT ... I encountered a demon while working as a Chaplain Assistant for the US Army in Japan.
FACT ... It was invisible and appeared out of nowhere.
FACT ... it was PURE HATE. HATE. HATE. It was a tangible HATE and it stood next to me.
FACT ... It was as if all that HATE and all it's attention was focused on me. It HATED ME.
FACT .. it would be IMPOSSIBLE for something of that much HATE to 'console' anyone.

There may be different demons with different 'personalities' but the demon I encountered was absolute and pure HATE .. and it was all directed my way. That's just the absolute truth and fact of the matter.

Heylel isn't a demon, he's a Fallen One. Angels are angels not demons. Demons are the disembodied spirits of the dead nephilim. And it's not surprising you felt hate coming from it, we were their food once.

The Bible makes it clear that the dead play no further part of any sort in the affairs of this world anymore, that they known nothing, have none of their own thoughts/consciousness and that they remain in the ground on this Earth (with only a few exceptions).

So how about Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16: 19-31)? It appears that both of those men died and knew things, had consciousness, emotions, etc.

Anyone seeking to consult 'Mary' or any of the 'Saints' for their inter-secession before God have another thing coming. The dead will be doing absolutely nothing on your behalf according to the Bible

The Bible says that the whole body of Christ functions together, each supplying what the rest of the body needs (Ephesians 4:16) and that when one part of the body of Christ has joy or suffers, the entire body has joy or suffers with it. (1 Corinthians 12:26) Now, unless you believe that once a Christian dies, he/she is no longer a part of the Body of Christ, it seems clear that dead Christians share our joys and sufferings and can supply us with something that we need for our growth.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

The bible is a CATHOLIC BOOK. It was collected and written and affirmed by the CATHOLIC CHURCH back in the 300s. Therefore, if the Catholics wanted to change the bible - which they didn't, but Martin Luther did - IF they wanted to change it .. they could do whatever they wanted to do with it. IT's A CATHOLIC BOOK.

If I recall my church history, the Christian church was still fairly apostolic in the "300s". The Catholic Church, as we know it, did not appear until about 500 AD. Yes, yes, there was a bishop of Rome from the first century on, but at first he was just another bishop, and Peter was not the first bishop of Rome, BTW. The first bishop of Rome was actually British, IIRC. Rome was made Christian by the Britons, not the other way around - by the time RCC missionaries reached Britain, it had already been Christian for centuries.

As to changing the bible, you are mostly correct - Martin Luther made more changes than the RCC, but he only excluded certain books which can still be read separately. I have them myself. What the SDA's and others accuse the RCC of are changing times (holy days and sabbaths - Saturday to Sunday) and laws (throwing out the anti-idol commandment and dividing another to make ten). Shall I add the RCC's monumental persecutions on top of that?

reply to post by FlyersFan

You don't have to believe in the Old Testament to be someone who believes in God or in Christ. To think that you do have to buy into the myths of the old testament in order to believe in God .

Even Satan and the Fallen Angels ‘believe in’ God or Christ, they know He is God so why are they going to be destroyed from existence and your not? Perhaps there is something a little more to it than ‘believe in’.

You really ought to get over the 'Catholics hate the bible' fundamentalist christian bunk.

Please fill me in on what selective parts of the Bible the Catholics hold themselves to if they discount whatever is said in the Old Testament. Can I hold you to things said in the New Testament or only those things in the New Testament that don’t show that the Papal doctrines are unbiblical?

I guess it must be true then that the Papacy never burnt people alive with their Bible around their necks, put the Bible on a list of forbidden books for a period of time, would seek and kill anyone with their own Bible, attempted to assassinate King James in the Gunpowder Plot, sent the Catholic Spanish Armada to destroy protestant Britian (God destroy the fleet in storms), read from their versions in a language the common people couldn’t understand or killed anyone who questioned them on the accuracy of their teaching (because of course the Pope must be infallible, and they would just be a heretic and as ‘Saint’ Thomas Aquinas taught, it is perfectly fine to kill a heretic).

oh blah blah blah ... off topic attempt at an insult, and trying to jab at Catholic beliefs in regards to Mary and the dead.

How is the ‘insult’ off-topic…it is exactly on target to do with Catholic doctrine of praying to the dead ‘Mary’ for her intercession for them yet the titles they give Mary are from pagan religions and Satanic worship.

It is through this weakness that the perfected man, the Sun, is of dual nature, and his evil twin slays him in his glory. So the triumphant Lord of Heaven, the beloved of Apollo and the Muses is brought down into the dust, and who shall mourn him but his Mother Nature, Venus, the lady of love and sorrow? Well is it if she bears within her the Secret of Resurrection!...She is Isis and Mary, Istar and Bhavani, Artemis and Diana.
p. 635, Chapter 67, 'Confessions' by Aliester Crowley

Are you please to know that 'Mary', the androgen or dual nature diety is Aliester Crowley's Satan?

"Satan! Cry Aloud! Though Exalted Most High! Oh Me Father Satan! The Eye!" (Aleister Crowley, Magnum Opus, Book Four)

"This serpent, Satan, is not the enemy of man... He is 'The Devil' of the (Egyptian) Book of Thoth, and his emblem is 'Baphomet,' the Androgyne who is the hieroglyph of arcane perfection...But moreover his letter is Ayin, the Eye; he is Light and his zodiacal image is Capricornus, that leaping goat whose attribute is liberty." (Magick in Theory and Practice' by Aleister Crowley)

Jeremiah 44:17 'But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem...'

We have a parallel text here from Jeremiah 19:13
And the houses of Jerusalem, and the houses of the kings of Judah, shall be defiled as the place of Tophet, because of all the houses upon whose roofs they have burned incense unto all the host of heaven, and have poured out drink offerings unto other gods.

Hmm, so what really went on at this 'Tophet' and who were this tophets were dedicated too?

Jeremiah 7:31
They have built pagan shrines at Topheth, the garbage dump in the valley of Ben-Hinnom, and there they burn their sons and daughters in the fire. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!

Surely the 'queen of heaven' could not have been demanding human sacrifices! Oh, but of cares right, the OT is all just myths and propaganda huh...Let's see what history says.

The cemetery at Carthage was in use from around 700 BCE to 146 BCE. It contained over 20,000 urns holding the cremated bones of young humans and animals, 80% of which were fetuses or neonates (Aubet 2001: 251-252; Schwartz 1993:49). The accepted scholarship agrees with the excavators that the bones are the result of thousands of sacrifices, especially since the inscriptions were mostly votive; that is, they indicated that the depositors owed the deities a return for a favor.
source

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“Mary is the mother and model of the Church"... “Like Mary, the Church is the mediator of God’s blessing for the world. ” Pope Benedict XVI, “Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God” The Vatican Today

Perhaps the clearest evidence that the Catholic view of Mary is legendary rather than historical is how the Marian mythology has evolved over time. Whereas the doctrine of Christ has remained stable since the early creeds, Marian dogma continues to evolve: 1) in 431, she was called the “Mother of God”; 2) by 600, prayers were officially offered to Mary; 3) in 649, Pope Martin I stressed the perpetual nature of Mary’s virginity declaring her the “blessed ever-virginal and immaculate Mary”; 4) in 1854 came the dogmatic assertion of the Immaculate Conception (that she was born sinless); 5) in 1950, we have the Assumption of Mary (her body was taken to heaven); 6) as recently as 1965, she was proclaimed “Mother of the Church”; 7) currently there is an earnest campaign to proclaim Mary as “Co-Redemptrix Mediatrix of All Graces” and “Advocate for the People of God.”
source: Horn, Thomas R.; Putnam, Cris D. (2012-04-15). Petrus Romanus: The Final Pope Is Here (Kindle Locations 6276-6282)

Perpetual Virginity
At the Lateran Synod of AD 649 when Pope Martin I decreed:

“blessed ever-virginal and immaculate Mary” and that, “she conceived without seed, of the Holy Ghost, generated without injury (to her virginity), and her virginity continued unimpaired after the birth.”
Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (St. Louis: B. Herder Book Company, 1957), p.203

Ah, you do realise that Jesus had other siblings...so teaching that Mary was ever-virginal is like saying that white is black or war is peace, it does not mesh with the hisortical record or common sense.

Perpetual Sinlessness
Official Roman literature states:

“In consequence of a Special Privilege of Grace from God, Mary was free from every personal sin during her whole life.” Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p.203

Romanists make an absurd assertion that:

“Mary gave birth in miraculous fashion without any opening of her womb and injury to her body and without pain.” John Saward, Cradle of Redeeming Love: The Theology of the Christmas Mystery (San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 2002), 206.

Immaculate Conception (of Mary)
This is quoted directly from the papal bull “Ineffabilis” which was delivered on December 8, 1854. Ineffable means it so sacred, divine, and transcendent that it is hard to express in words. This document is even called ineffabilis deus meaning God’s ineffable declaration.

“The Most Holy Virgin Mary was, in the first moment of her conception, by a unique gift of grace and privilege of Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Redeemer of mankind, preserved free from all stain of original sin." Pope Pius IX, The Immaculate Conception, as quoted in Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 199.

Assumption of Mary
On November 1, 1950, Pope Pius XII promulgated the “Munificentissimus Deus” as divinely revealed doctrine that:

“Mary, the immaculate perpetually Virgin Mother of God, after the completion of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into the glory of Heaven” Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p.208

Historically, this seems to be a clear case of pagan goddess legends which infiltrated the Roman Church. The oldest manuscript fragments of the legend are in Syriac, dating to the fifth century, and the oldest quotation is a sentence in a homily of Eusebius of Alexandria from the late fourth century. (source: Esbroeck, “Assumption of the Virgin,” as quoted in The Anchor Bible Dictionary ed. David Noel Freedman (New York, NY: Doubleday, 1996), 6:856)
Horn, Thomas R.; Putnam, Cris D. (2012-04-15). Petrus Romanus: The Final Pope Is Here (Kindle Locations 6402-6405). Defender Publishing LLC. Kindle Edition.

Mariolatry
Bishop Mark A. Pivarunas representing “The Religious Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen” states emphatically that, “Catholics do not, as Protestants falsely believe, worship the Blessed Virgin Mary.” Let's take a look if he is right.

Does this prayer by Pope Pius XII sound like worship?

Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty, and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother, Mary, confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.

Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery, we admire and praise the peerless richness of sublime gifts with which God has filled you, above every other mere creature, from the first moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.

O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O fragrant Lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume! O Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin, which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell!

O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cry which rises up from every heart. Bend tenderly over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and oppressed, comfort the poor and humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity in youth, protect the holy Church, make all men feel the attraction of Christian goodness. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that they are brothers, and that the nations are members of one family, upon which may there shine forth the sun of a universal and sincere peace.

Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people! Amen.
Scott P. Richert, “Prayer of Pope Pius XII: In Honor of the Immaculate Conception,”

Perhaps consider if this officially sanctioned work The Glories of Mary by St. Alphonse Liquori, qualifies as worship:

HAIL, holy Queen, Mother of mercy.
Hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope!
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve;
To thee do we send up our sighs,
mourning and weeping in this vale of tears.
Turn then, most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us.
And after this our exile show unto us
the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.
V. Pray for us, O holy Mother of God.
R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
source: Liquori, “The Glories of Mary: An Explanation of Salve Regina,” 1931, Catholic Tradition

Mediatrix & Coredemptrix

Mary was given the title “Mediatrix” in the above cited bull “Ineffabilis” of Pope Pius IX, the same document that proclaimed her immaculate conception. In 2012, Pope Benedict XVI affirmed this blasphemy in the statement quoted at the beginning of this chapter when he referred to her as “the mediator of God’s blessing for the world.” Rome’s theologians argue it is an inference from her role in the incarnation of the God-man Christ Jesus. They further claim she had a role in His sacrifice on the cross to God the Father for the sake of the redemption of mankind. While there is nothing in the Bible to support it, they extend the role to the more demanding sense that, after her death, “Mary’s intercessory co-operation extends to all graces, which are conferred on mankind, so that no grace accrues to men, without the intercession of Mary.” [source: Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p.213]
Horn, Thomas R.; Putnam, Cris D. (2012-04-15). Petrus Romanus: The Final Pope Is Here (Kindle Locations 6506-6514)

Roman Dogma

“From that great treasure of all graces, which the Lord has brought, nothing, according to the will of God, comes to us except through Mary, so that, as nobody can approach the Supreme Father except through the Son, similarly nobody can approach Christ except through the Mother.” —Pope Leo 13th (source: Pope Leo XIII, Rosary Encyclical, “Octobri mense” (1891) as quoted in Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 213)

"All our hope do we repose in the most Blessed Virgin—in the all fair and immaculate one who has crushed the poisonous head of the most cruel serpent and brought salvation to the world: in her who is the glory of the prophets and apostles, the honor of the martyrs, the crown and joy of all the saints.” —Pope Pius IX
Pope Pius IX, “Ineffabilis Deus,” Papal Encyclicals Online, December 8, 1854

"In the power of the grace of Redemption merited by Christ, Mary, by her spiritual entering into the sacrifice of her Divine Son for men, made atonement for the sins of men, and (de congruo) merited the application of the redemptive grace of Christ. In this manner she co-operates in the subjective redemption of mankind.” (source: Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p.213)

"Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces by her intercession in Heaven (Mediatio in speciali). Since her assumption into Heaven, Mary co-operates in the application of the grace of Redemption to man.” (source: Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p.213)

Official Catholic sources have formulated it in even more blasphemous language as:

“There is one Mediator between Christ and men, the Holy Mother Mary. Mary is the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to Jesus but by Mary.” (source: Walter Martin, The Roman Catholic Church in History (Livingston, NJ: Christian Research Institute, 1960), p.49)

In a 1918, Pope Benedict XV wrote:

As the blessed Virgin Mary does not seem to participate in the public life of Jesus Christ, and then, suddenly appears at the stations of his cross, she is not there without divine intention. She suffers with her suffering and dying son, almost as if she would have died herself. For the salvation of mankind, she gave up her rights as the mother of her son and sacrificed him for the reconciliation of divine justice, as far as she was permitted to do. Therefore, one can say, she redeemed with Christ the human race. (source: Pope Benedict XV, Apostolic Letter Inter Soldalica, AAS 1918, p.181)

Um, that's called blasphemy!

Comparison between God's Word and Catholic teaching
1. Bible:

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6).  

“Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” (Matthew 11:28).

Pope Leo 13th:

“From that great treasure of all graces, which the Lord has brought, nothing, according to the will of God, comes to us except through Mary, so that, as nobody can approach the Supreme Father except through the Son, similarly nobody can approach Christ except through the Mother.”
source: Pope Leo XIII, Rosary Encyclical, “Octobri mense” (1891) as quoted in Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 213.

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2. Bible:

“And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it [He] shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel” (Genesis 3:15).  

“And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen” (Romans 16:20).

Pope Pius IX:

“All our hope do we repose in the most Blessed Virgin—in the all fair and immaculate one who has crushed the poisonous head of the most cruel serpent and brought salvation to the world: in her who is the glory of the prophets and apostles, the honor of the martyrs, the crown and joy of all the saints.” — Pope Pius IX, “Ineffabilis Deus,” Papal Encyclicals Online, December 8, 1854

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3. Bible:

“For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven” (Col 1:19–20).

“In the power of the grace of Redemption merited by Christ, Mary, by her spiritual entering into the sacrifice of her Divine Son for men, made atonement for the sins of men, and (de congruo) merited the application of the redemptive grace of Christ. In this manner she co-operates in the subjective redemption of mankind.”
source: Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 213.

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4. Bible:

“For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5).

Rome:

“Mary is the Mediatrix of all graces by her intercession in Heaven (Mediatio in speciali). Since her assumption into Heaven, Mary co-operates in the application of the grace of Redemption to man.”
source: Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 213.

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Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High

Revelation 13:5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies

It is hardly a deflection of the topic to question Catholic doctrine of praying to the dead Mary when it is needed as she is considered your intercessor and not Jesus. It is hardly off-topic to point out that the origin of authority of the doctrine the Catholic esposues is Satanic power according to the Bible. The Vatican doesn't interpret the Bible differently than me, they know exactly how it should be taught and choose not to teach it.

[to be continued...with the answers/evidences to your other questions]

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


What victory did the death and resurrection of Jesus win, if his followers are still to be stuck in the fear and superstition of the Old Testament?

Didn't Jesus commune with angels, talk to the dead and the ghost/spirits of Elisha and John the Baptist? Didn't the graves of the saints open up, upon his death, and the dead got up and walked around, visiting their friends and relatives?

How can today's Christians have faith in Jesus' promise of eternal life if they are supposed to believe that the comfort and communion they receive from their loved one's who have passed are actually demons trying to trick them?

Honestly, JesusGarlic, you seem to be promoting some kind of cultish version of Christianity that is the farthest away from my understanding of freedom and love that Christianity teaches, than any other fringe poster, myself included, here on ATS. And there are some really out there Christians here!

Congrats!

reply to post by windword
I wish members would stick to the OP topic and lay off the proselytizing. Wrong time and place for it; the OP's mom has just died. Plus I despise huge walls of text that bash other religions by a zealous religious fanatic.

How is that helping ANYONE? Honestly?



Ughh. I wrote some things before I edited this in response to your words above (with which I agree entirely) that was talking about that, wind.....
then I remembered T&C....

but some religious fanatics just don't know when to shut it and back off. Their posts are infuriatingly off-topic, rude, boring, and bizarre. It's like they're possessed or something. (And it's not by the Holy Spirit, I'll tell you that!)


JG is a 20-something "elder" in the Seventh Day Adventists.

Originally posted by windword
Honestly, JesusGarlic, you seem to be promoting some kind of cultish version of Christianity that is the farthest away from my understanding of freedom and love that Christianity teaches, than any other fringe poster, myself included, here on ATS. And there are some really out there Christians here!

JesusGarlic is a Catholic hater on a par with Jack Chick, that's what drives him.

BTW, Jesus didn't speak with John the Baptist's spirit, it was Elijah and Moses at the Transfiguration.

reply to post by adjensen


Moses, right! I wasn't sure, should have looked it up, but I'm only on my first cup of coffee.

I am unaware of this Jack Chick fellow, but even after my 2nd cup, I'd rather not know!

reply to post by windword

I am unaware of this Jack Chick fellow, but even after my 2nd cup, I'd rather not know!

I wasn't either. Here, check out my thread about discovering THAT madman!
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by windword
I am unaware of this Jack Chick fellow, but even after my 2nd cup, I'd rather not know!

In case you want to see the depths of Chick's goofy worldview: Wildtimes' thread from last month: My "Jack Chick Tract" initiation: 9/26/2012

ETA: She beat me to it by a minute, lol

reply to post by adjensen


Thanks...:p

We better get back on topic, though. My thoughts out to Silo: "You hang in there, girl!"

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

It is hardly off-topic to point out that the origin of authority of the doctrine the Catholic esposues is Satanic power according to the Bible.

It's TOTALLY off-topic. The OP didn't ask about the Catholic worship of Mary. She asked whether Christians (and others) feel they have communication from their deceased one ones.

Lay off, JG....you sound positively diabolical.