Christians: What's your relationship with the dead?

I was told many years ago there's 'no relationship' between those who are dead and those who're left on earth.

I'm curious - (for personal reasons) - what (you) Christians believe about our loved ones who've 'passed away'.

Do you believe those who've gone before you are 'looking down'? Protecting you? Or at least - still a part of your life in that they witness all that's 'going on' here - if they so choose?

I'm truly curious about your opinion - and - if you have any personal stories to 'back up' your belief.

Has anyone you know who's died - given you a 'sign' or peace of mind or...anything...since they 'left'?

peace

reply to post by silo13


Yes.
My father died on August 2, 2010. I had spent the previous two years helping care for him when my mom needed breaks...when he was dying, and we knew it, Mom decided she wanted him at home. They might have kept him alive for some time on ventilators; but he had made clear that he was ordering DNR.

The final time that he fell and broke a rib, he wound up in the hospital, on oxygen. He clawed at it: "Take it off of me!" I went to the hospital. Mom chose to keep him "hooked up" until my brother in Montana could get here....
I felt his (Daddy's) anguish. He did not want that......
while watching him deteriorate for several years, I had a lot of soul-searching and pre-grieving (if that is the word for it) to do.

The last day in the hospital, while feeding him sherbet (after they had agreed to unhook him), I said, "Daddy, if I'm not here when you go somewhere, please let me know where you are, so I can find you later."

He smiled and said he would. I had to go home (they refused to let me stay in the hospital with him that night; saying I was not strong enough to take it). They said he'd be okay til morning, when my brother could arrive. I objected to them keeping him "hooked-up", and to the pain he was in. They kept him going.

When I got home, I wrote him a card:
"If you get there before I do, don't give up on me. I'll see you when my chores are through, I don't know how long I'll be. But I'm not gonna let you down, Daddy, wait and see. So between now and then, til I see you again, I'll be loving you. Love, me."

The next day (all the remote family had come), which was the last day I spent time with him, I got to talk with him, fed him some melon, and while he rested was holding his hand, just reading on the bed. When he awoke, he wanted to look at the coffee-table book of National Parks (his passion). I held the book so he could see. He became tired, and I was weary as well, and very sad. I asked my mom to please read him the card, knowing I would cry if I tried to. I asked him again to please let me know where he was if I didn't get back before he went somewhere else. He said he would.

I went home again. My brother came a couple of hours later to get me, as things were getting worse, and on our way, we got the call that he had stopped responding.

We missed his passing by four minutes.

I laid beside him for a few minutes. Finally the "undertakers" came to remove him to their facility.
I was the only one who walked with him out to the driveway.

I stayed the night with my mom. The next day, she gave me his watch, an Accutron by Bulova; it had a lot of sentimental significance for me, and not long before, I had tried to revive it for him (it had been not working for years).....

I put that watch on my wrist, and noticed the time. The next day, in my grief at home, I looked at the watch (no longer working and having no battery at all), and it had advanced by 11 seconds.

I knew it was a sign. People may scoff and pooh-pooh that, but since then I have seen the second hand advanced even when the watch was sitting undisturbed (not while it was doing so, but afterward).

I know it was my dad, and it gave me great comfort. Also, my mom reported things falling off of perfectly secure shelves in their home. I still grieve, and am weeping now.
I believe they are still with us, unseen perhaps, but never far away. I regularly (but not really 'often') "feel" the presence of people I've known who have died

I have had him with me in otherwise innocuous dreams; and each time, I feel he is fine. He is healthy, vigorous, and still Daddy. Those "visits" in dream-time are very real to me.

Just my experiences. Hope this is the kind of answer you were looking for.

Yes, I have a relationship with those who have passed: friends, family, pets, all of them.

Well, in Orthodox Christianity, we place great importance on praying for the dead. The first 40 days after death, we believe the soul is still around. On the 40th day we believe the soul undergoes what is known as particular judgment.

We also believe that those who have passed particular judgment into Paradise aren't dead. They are alive in Christ. Hence, praying for the intercessions of Saints isn't praying to the dead at all.

Scriptures that speak of being alive in Christ and the prayers of saints:

John 6:47-51
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

John 5:25-29
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 27:51-53
“And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

John 11:23-27
“Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise.’ Martha said to him, ‘I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.’ ”

“Jesus told her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?’ ” She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, ...’ ”

Matthew 22:32
“ ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Luke 20:38
“and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Revelation 21:27
“ … but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

John 8:51
“Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.”

Revelation 5:8-10
“… and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; and they sang a new song, saying, ‘Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation,10 and hast made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on earth.’ ”

Revelation 11:16-18
“And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, ‘We give thanks to thee, Lord God Almighty, who art and who wast, that thou hast taken thy great power and begun to reign. The nations raged, but thy wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, for rewarding thy servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear thy name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth.’ ”

Hebrews 12:1
“Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us rid ourselves of every burden and sin that clings to us and persevere in running the race that lies before us"

Luke 15:7
“I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.”

Hebrews 12:22-23"No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering,
and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect,"

Revelation 8:3
“I saw another angel who came and stood before the altar holding a golden censer and much incense was given to him that he might add it to the prayers of the saints upon the golden altar that was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense with the prayers of the saints went up before God out of the angel’s hand. And the angel took the censer and he filled it with the fire from the altar and threw it to the earth and there followed peals of thunder, and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake."

Scripture that speaks of prayers for the dead:

2 Maccabees, 12:40-46.

When Judas and his men came to take away for burial the bodies of their brethren who had fallen in the battle against Gorgias, "they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain. Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden. And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten...And making a gathering, he [Judas] sent twelve [al. two] drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection (for if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead), and because he considered that they who had fallen asleep in godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

When my grandfather passed away, I wasn't told about it as I was out of the country. He actually died the day I was flying back. He had been sick and in the middle of the flight, I started talking to a friend about him, and I just knew he had died. It was like he was there with me.

Anyway, we have memorial services for the dead. The family will make a dish of boiled wheat called koliva that everyone will eat after the service, as we consider it symbolic of death and resurrection.

en.wikipedia.org...

About our memorial services:
en.wikipedia.org...(Orthodox)

Chant for the dead- Memorial Service:



ETA: I do have another story, but it is fairly personal. I've only shared this with my priest and my husband. A few years ago, I was in Kodiak, Alaska. I attended an akathist service to St. Herman. An akathist is a hymn dedicated to a saint where you're expected to remain standing the entire time (which isn't hard to do when there aren't any seats to begin with). This particular church had this akathist every Thursday, as they have St Herman's relics there.

Anyway, for a few days I had been assaulted with negativity. I was overwhelmed with anger, sadness, depression, etcetera. The thing is, there was no reason for it. Logically, I knew it, but I didn't seem able to put a stop to it and get back to being myself. I was at the akathist only because I was with other people who wanted to go. At the end of the service, if you went up to the priest, he would bless everyone with oil from the vigil lamp that hung next to St. Herman's icon and relics. Immediately after being blessed, the 'cloud' lifted. So, I do feel a special devotion to St. Herman due to this. I consider that he interceded on my behalf.

reply to post by silo13


I don't believe they are looking down on me or helping me in any way.

My wife passed away in March 2010, and I have had numerous signs and experiences that tell me that she is still with me. Prior to her death, which was unexpected at age 46, I had no opinion as to whether Christians are "sleeping" until the final judgement, or aware, and with Christ in a spiritual form, now there is no question in my mind.

reply to post by silo13


We're still close. My loved one has been gone nearly 7 years now and still when something significant happens she is the first one I think of. I imagine my self telling her and feel the anticipation of wondering how she'll react and then in a moment I realize she is gone. I cannot call her. I think she is so present in my thoughts constantly because people never really do part from us if we are already attached by certain inextricable bonds. There is another thread here dealing with "entanglement" theory and I know in my heart it is not theory or even spooky action at a distance as Einstein called it...it is souls that are connected forever.

reply to post by LeSigh


Very interesting post. I thought they believe the soul hangs around earth for 3 days and that is why we normally have a 3 day wait before burial. It's really 40 days?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by silo13

 

I don't believe they are looking down on me or helping me in any way.

Curious...what DO you think?

Is that because you feel abandoned or because you think it is unlikely spirits linger after death?

If so why the cross? I noticed a "spirit" reference in your avatar. Do you suppose spirit never does die?
When we are dead, do you think there is nothing after this life? Mind you, not saying I know anything, just picking your brain out of curiosity since you said so little, and yet at the same time, so much.

Thank you everyone for your input. I'm soaking it up and sorting it out and appreciative of ever word posted.

To let you the 'whys' behind the thread? My Mother died recently. She had everyone I know bamboozled. They thought she was the most courageous, loving blah blah blah. She was nothing but a pathological liar who was full of stool meat.

Anyhoooo - I listened to way too many of her 'experiences' of interaction with loved ones after they passed on. She supposedly saw my Father, Grandmother, had 'words' with them etc - yeah whatever.

Now? She's two days gone. Nothing coming in to me (THANK GOD) - and even though she was a sure believer in 'connecting' with those 'gone before you' there's nothing 'coming in' to family members either.

Am I looking for her? Nope. In fact even though I'm a Christian I've been quasi-cursing her day in and out since she left. And please - I'm not looking for sympathy - I don't want or need it. My only reason for posting this info is out of respect for those who might be wondering why I hosted this thread.

peace

reply to post by silo13


From the standpoint of those who make it back home, they are allowed to come back and assist as needed. Guidance, etc. They cannot protect in that sense, as this is left for the guides and the soldiers.

I speak to some above, and we just speak on previous things that have happened here. I do not take guidance or anything of that nature, as I speak directly to Father on those matters.

When a person is down emotionally, they usually come and try and comfort said person.

There is no need to ask a Christian what they believe, just ask what the Bible teaches...as most Christian's don't actually follow the Bible on what it teaches concerning the state of the dead, because they have been deceived by false teaching, and the works of the fallen angels impersonating their loved ones.

State of the dead

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 For the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing...Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished, Nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun.

Job 14:12 So man lies down and does not rise. Till the heavens are no more, they will not wake nor be roused from their sleep

Psalms 115:17 The dead do not praise the Lord, nor any who go down into silence

Psalm 146:4 His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 11:11 After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:13, 14 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them who are asleep, that you sorrow not, even as others who have no hope.

The Bible makes it clear that the dead play no further part of any sort in the affairs of this world anymore, that they known nothing, have none of their own thoughts/consciousness and that they remain in the ground on this Earth (with only a few exceptions).

What will happen to the dead in Christ

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 King James Version (KJV)

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It is clear that they remain in the grave on this Earth until the second coming when they are then raised up, the idea of someone typically going straight to Heaven upon death is unbiblical.

The dead not in Christ
Covered in Revelation chapter 20 - they will be raised up at a later time (the second resurrection done after the 1000 years spent in the Heavenly city) where they are made aware of their sentence, will understand it is just and be erased from existence until they are stubble/ashes on the ground, body and soul burnt until completely gone (no burning forever but consequences of their actions in this life last forever as they get no second chance at another life)

Common Rebuttal refuted back
Some may like to cite the story of the thief on the cross seemingly that he is promised that he will go straight to Heaven that day upon his death. Let's look at this passage more closely:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you, Today shall you be with me in paradise.

Now the Bible correctly understood contains no contradictions in theology. In the original writing their is no comma to break up the sentence so by changing the comma location from where it is commonly put to after the word 'today' then the Bible reads in harmony again. Not only that, it also makes logical sense because in that day when Jesus died He never returned to Heaven but remained in the grave for 3 days and nights. Jesus would not be with him in paradise today because He would still be on Earth.

'And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto you today, you shall be with me in paradise.'

The example of the Witch of Endor shows why we should not consulate the dead

1 Samuel 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. (KJV)

This word 'gods', elohim, is a referencing to celestial beings i.e angels or in this instance the fallen angels that reside in the Earth.

The Bible gives strong warning about spiritism and those who seek to consult the dead ( Deuteronomy 18:10-11, Leviticus 20:27). The warning is for our own benefit as the fallen angels merely seek to lead us into deception and God wants us to be spared from that by not giving them any permission to be able to.

Anyone seeking to consult 'Mary' or any of the 'Saints' for their inter-secession before God have another thing coming. The dead will be doing absolutely nothing on your behalf according to the Bible, so what do you choose to follow then, the Word of God or the traditions of men based on paganism(which lead to being opened up to Satanic deception).

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by silo13

 

From the standpoint of those who make it back home, they are allowed to come back and assist as needed. Guidance, etc.

I speak to some above, and we just speak on previous things that have happened here.

You are not speaking from a Biblical perspective. If you are going to speak as a Christian and not be in harmony with the Bible then I will have to pull you up on it lest you lead others into error. The Bible makes it clear that the dead no longer play any role whatsoever in what happens on the Earth (Ecclesiastes 9:6). They are NOT allowed to 'come back', they are still in the ground awaiting the first resurrection after the Tribulation period still yet to come.

Did you ever hear Lazarus say why Jesus brought him back to life from the grave if he was already in Heaven? No...because he never went.

There are only a handful that are there already, like Elijah and some who came forth from the grave upon Jesus' resurrection. They do not play any role on Earth and the Bible suggests that in consult these others you are not speaking to anyone from 'above'. Anyone you speak to other than Jesus is from 'below' as the story of the Witch of Endor illustrates.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

The Bible makes it clear that the dead no longer play any role whatsoever in what happens on the Earth (Ecclesiastes 9:6).

She asked for others to speak on, I did not state anywhere in my post that I was a Christian.

On top of that, the bible speaks on the dead, yes, the dead, not the ones who whom are above in heaven.

Did you ever hear Lazarus say why Jesus brought him back to life from the grave if he was already in Heaven? No...because he never went.

No one (man) went to heaven, until after Brothers death.

They do not play any role on Earth and the Bible suggests that in consult these others you are not speaking to anyone from 'above'. Anyone you speak to other than Jesus is from 'below' as the story of the Witch of Endor illustrates.

1 John 4:1-3

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Why would it be written to test the spirits, if none come from above to speak?

The OP also stated:

I'm truly curious about your opinion - and - if you have any personal stories to 'back up' your belief.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

Anyone you speak to other than Jesus is from 'below' as the story of the Witch of Endor illustrates.

Matthew 4:11

Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and were ministering to him.

Hebrews 1:7

God said about the angels, "He makes his messengers winds. He makes his servants flames of fire."

Luke 1:11

While Zechariah was in the sanctuary, an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing to the right of the incense altar.

Rev 22:6

The angel said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place."

Acts 8:26

Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, "Go south to the road--the desert road--that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza."

I could go on and on, many do come from above and speak to man. You are in error, when you say, you can only speak to Brother.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


Are you actually insinuating that the God you worship is the God of the dead and not the living?

The God I worship is the God of the living. The saints of the Church are ALIVE in Christ. I will ask them to pray for me, as I ask my other brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for me, and I them. I Timothy 2:4 upholds the practice of intercession for others, and we are quite cognizant of the fact that Christ's mediation is what makes intercession possible. We DO go directly to the Holy Trinity in prayer. However, the next time someone at your church, or wherever, asks you to pray for them, I wonder if you would simply tell them to only go to Christ and not bother you with the task of praying for them?

As the Paschal Troparian states: 'Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!'

Here's a link to a post of mine along that topic: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Specifically, after the 'harrowing of hell' this occurred:

"...and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many."- Matthew 27:52-53

They seem quite alive here, to me.

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by LeSigh

 

Very interesting post. I thought they believe the soul hangs around earth for 3 days and that is why we normally have a 3 day wait before burial. It's really 40 days?

We actually have a memorial service on the third day after day- but also on the ninth, the fortieth, and the first year after. The idea with the fortieth day is akin to the transfiguration of Christ.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


Gee...I wonder if it's possible to misinterpret the Bible?

Hmmm...let me get a panel discussion going and find out.

We're done.

The answer is: Hell yeah.

reply to post by jhill76


I should say what I meant by "anyone you speak to other than Jesus is from 'below' as the story of the Witch of Endor illustrates." If people seek to communicate with any being (past human, original angel, Jesus) where they open the door or express some desire to interact with them beyond us merely understanding the mind of God by reading His Word or praying to Jesus then such communication has the potential, and is often the case, deceptive.

I know of instances where people have wanted to speak with angels and see them....many angels appeared to them, they gave them very deceptive messages to convince these people they were from God. The end result of people seeking after this type of communication, two people are now in jail for murder thinking they were carrying out the wishes of God and doing His service (that information is covered in Roger Morneau's book, ' A Trip Into The Supernatural'.

Whole religions and movements have been created from people who have been communicating with deceptive spirits.

Most people do not know how to 'test the spirits' properly. Most Christians (99% or so) can't discern from their own pastors or themselves the 'truth' they preach concerning the requirements of the new covenant and as a result they actively promote a religion that is not in harmony with the Heavenly kingdom and its statutes.

If people think they are communicating or interacting at all with their past relatives, that they are somehow in Heaven already then 99.99 ect % of the time they are going to be mistaken and actually will be interacting with fallen angels without them knowing. If God is going to communicate with anyone more formally it will typically be through a vision or a dream but it is also within the powers of the fallen angels to give visions and dreams to people as well (plus no one in our time knows what Jesus looks like or Gabriel and the fallen angels can assume any shape any appearance, and know everyone's history to mimic because they have been here from the beginning).

The way God communicates to me is in the very concealed affect He has on my heart when I read His Word or pray to Him silently where He makes it known quietly through the Holy Spirit that what I am now reading or thinking is the course of action He would like me to pursue. This would mostly come as knowing in the mind the truth of what you are reading (from the Bible), a feeling that you detect is not from yourself but a third party that is given you a sensation in or body as confirmation and then getting the sense that what you just read is exactly what is needed to be done in your present situation.

Well you can try and test their spirit but most don't know how properly, and a fallen angel is a formidable foe if you don't know what you are doing (an intellect and knowledge vastly superior than our own with centuries to perfect the art of lies and the ability to perform super-natural signs). One way to test a spirit is to say something like, 'In the name of Jesus those blood was shred I demand you to depart for me'. If the messenger/spirit is not from God then they will typical have to leave because you are not giving them any permission to be around you.

The two people I know of (over the past few hundreds years) that have had a direct enough line of communication with the above to receive messages that they have written down and can be analysed sufficiently to see that they are coming from Him or one of His messengers angels both are strongly against us seeking to communicate with anyone who is past.

reply to post by LeSigh


Who is the one who has authority to determine/judge who is a saint or not? What is a 'Saint'? Give a decent number of examples of people (by name) who are officially sanctioned by God to be 'saints', try to make the list modern if possible unless it can't be determined.

What is the earthly name of this 'Church' whom these supposed worthy saints belong to.

Please show me the verse where it says about praying to those that are past or any heavenly angel to intercede on our behalf or anyone else's. Please show me the verse about recommending we pray to those that are asleep and have no current conscious thoughts of their own.