Should Russia Send Nukes to Iran?

The first part of this is reworked from another thread.

Originally posted by ipsedixit
I think that NATO has decided to provoke a major war between Turkey and Syria, with the help of Turkey who must have been promised something big in exchange. Do they want anything big? Yes they do. You know they do. This is not rocket science.

An attack by Israel on Iran would be a confusing sideshow that might get in the way. Iran is definitely going to run into a lot of trouble in the not too distant future. Personally, I believe they would have, even if the nuclear issue were not at all an issue. Even, in fact, if they had no nuclear installations of any kind on their soil and had to send their citizens to Georgia for catscans.

Meanwhile, Sideshow Bob will have to wait a little while longer to see action.

The fact of the matter is that the Americans intend to control all of the oil resources in the Middle East and Caspian Basin. Israel's security, Iran's potential nukes, the Arab Spring are all just pretexts for action to that end. They all have the utility of built in "proxies" through which to act.

Things are going great for America's plans. Soon Assad will be gone and Syria will assume "basket case" status just like Libya and Egypt. The Islamic world's worst characteristic, the inability to live and let live, will once again be used against it, to reduce it to a geopolitically impotent oil depot.

In the near future it will be the fate of Iran to have a chunk of territory cut out of it by the Americans, using the Kurds as proxies, in order to topple the Mullahs and reduce Iranian influence in the region.

Nobody likes Iran. (Personally, I like Iranians, but that's just me. I like everybody, even Americans. I'm a late 21st century, post WW3 type personality, who has had it with warfare.) But the point is that Russia and China, who are the real important entities being squeezed by the US in all this, are not friends of Iran. People looking for poetic justice on the Americans and expecting Russia to supply it are bound to be disappointed.

Nobody likes a mouthy Mullah.

Having said that, Russia and China face a delicate decision with respect to current developments in the Middle East. They both have smarter people than me looking at the political trends. They can see where this is going. The question is whether it is in their, and the world's interest to allow the Americans to do what they want to do. Can they live with the results? That's the dilemma.

George W. Bush said that history would be kind to him. He might have been right, despite 9/11. Maybe it is in my personal interest for the Americans to achieve hegemony and de facto control in the Middle East and the Caspian. Maybe a lot of future blackmail and tough times and material hardship in North America and Europe will have been avoided, by using the methods we have seen so far, advancing American interests, those methods being murder and murder and more murder.

It is a tough thing to decide, but the decision is already made. We will never know what would have happened if America had decided to use the "peace dividend" that followed the collapse of the Soviet Union in another, more benevolent way. We will never know what would have happened had an era of cooperation been inaugurated, an era of honest declaration of resource problems. An era without the naked larceny of the oligarchs and the would be oligarchs world wide.

Human nature has given us the world we currently inhabit and the threat of WW3.

Looking at this from the Russian and the Chinese perspective, does it not make some sense to attempt to halt American expansion, even though neither country, particularly Russia is in immediate danger from it?

Aren't Russia and China facing the American equivalent of the Iranian Mullahs, a crazy group determined to bring abouit a "New World Order" with themselves in charge and everyone else reduced to supporting roles?

From the perspective of Russia and China, do they not seem to be between a rock and a hard place? On the one had they have the crazy Mullahs and their worldview and on the other hand they have the crazy oligarchs and their worldview. What to do?

Would it not make some sense to send nuclear tipped warheads to Iran immediately, to put a halt to American expansion at Syria? Would it be crazy to do so, given the seeming inability of Islamic cultures to control their emotions and impulses? It's a very tough question. American brinkmanship is forcing this sort of question on them. They have to be considering it. They have heard of Zbigniev Berzhinski. They have read The Grand Chessboard. They know that they are next.

What do they have to lose? I wish the esteemed American Secretary of State were on ATS. I wish she could adress this question.

Should Russia sends nukes to Iran?

Should Russia Send Nukes to Iran?

I say yes.

Call me crazy but I think it would add stability to the region.

The only other way to add stability would be to disarm all the other countries with a nuclear arsenal.

(Israel, Pakistan, India)

reply to post by Corruption Exposed


It is a very, very tough decision. In an emergency would you give a machine gun to a hyper six year old? How would you get it away from him again when the emergency is over? Would he turn it on you if you told him to clean up his room?

That's the calculation that has to have been made over at State, that Russia won't do it. Very, very risky.

your question is making the assumption that Iran would want a nuke.

If they accepted a nuke it would give strength the the west saying that Iran cant be trusted, not accepting a nuke gives them the moral high ground.

reply to post by ipsedixit


If the US can have a state of emergency for eleven years, why should Iran's emergency ever come to an end? If anything, Iran's emergency really is lsting eleven (or more years) because of US and Israel hostility. I don't want any country living under an emergency but if the US is going to do it, they have no grounds to criticize what another country or person does.

Originally posted by munkey66
your question is making the assumption that Iran would want a nuke.

If they accepted a nuke it would give strength the the west saying that Iran cant be trusted, not accepting a nuke gives them the moral high ground.

What you are saying is true. In fact the Mullahs at one point had a fatwa saying that Iran was forbidden to acquire nuclear weapons. There is no doubt that they don't like them. (Who does?) But events are leading to revisions of position. The fatwa was rescinded, I believe.

My answer :

Nuke

reply to post by filosophia

I agree, but looking at things from the perspective of the widely held belief that oil is running out, one can see an American driven geopolitical change. Everyone is having to cope with that.

Developments in Iran, post Kholmeini, and in other areas post the Arab spring have been capitalized on by a very sweeping American/European agenda based on securing resources. The big question is how the other Great Powers, Russia and China will greet these developments.

Originally posted by Ben81
My answer :

Nuke

I like a man of few words. I'm assuming from the thumbs down you're saying, "Don't send nukes to Iran." Is that correct?

If so, I tend to agree.

A really diabolical Russian answer to the situation would be a blitzkrieg strike into Eastern Europe to reclaim territories formerly held by the Soviet Union particularly Georgia and the Ukraine and Byelorussia. But I hope they are not that bloody minded. That's not the way the world should be going.

reply to post by ipsedixit


Russia and china might not care that the west plans on controlling the resources of the middle east, as long as they have the belief, guarantee, or understanding that once the west seizes control of the resources, they will sell them to china and Russia at very low prices?

Is that a possibility?

I guess the other possibility is, they do not trust the west to sell at cheap prices, and if that is the case, then I suppose it would be in their best interest to support Iran. If the leaders in Iran give them some sort of guarantee that the prices will be lower under the Iranians than under the America's, perhaps china and Russia will side with Iran.

It sounds so simplistic, and I am sure it is not, I am sure there is a lot more that I am not taking into account right now, but for the ease of discussion I am trying to keep it simple.

Funny how this whole thing could boil down to "bargain shopping" who has the lowest price to offer....

Of course, if china or Russia decided they did not want to pay either the western prices or the Iranian prices, but would prefer to take the resources for themselves....well then that would become a ww3 style mess for sure.

I am guessing they will not do that last option because they do not want to dirty up our planet with nuclear fallout.

But....who knows? Wars for land and resources have been happening since man first realized he needed them to survive.

Originally posted by Mijamija
reply to post by ipsedixit

 

Russia and china might not care that the west plans on controlling the resources of the middle east, as long as they have the belief, guarantee, or understanding that once the west seizes control of the resources, they will sell them to china and Russia at very low prices?

Is that a possibility?

Yes, but countering it is the belief in some circles that those who think like players on a "grand chessboard" will eventually seek to dominate Russia and China anyway.

I guess the other possibility is, they do not trust the west to sell at cheap prices, and if that is the case, then I suppose it would be in their best interest to support Iran. If the leaders in Iran give them some sort of guarantee that the prices will be lower under the Iranians than under the America's, perhaps china and Russia will side with Iran.

Interesting point. I believe that what has happened, in fact, is that China has already used the sanctions against Iran to haggle them into bargain basement prices for Iranian oil shipments to China. A little peek into life in the crocodile pen. Nobody in this is Iran's friend. In fact, and in America's favor, these people can't even see that they are allies who should be dealing honorably with one another. It's great to be American when you live in a world of venal suckers.

Of course, if china or Russia decided they did not want to pay either the western prices or the Iranian prices, but would prefer to take the resources for themselves....well then that would become a ww3 style mess for sure.

America has thought through this thing very thoroughly. It is difficult to see how that could happen, but Russia seizing the Ukraine or Georgia, . . . that's another matter.

The big question for Russia is, "Is the Cold War over, or not?"

America has been sending mixed signals.

I am guessing they will not do that last option because they do not want to dirty up our planet with nuclear fallout.

But....who knows? Wars for land and resources have been happening since man first realized he needed them to survive.

Bad people will do anything they think they can get away with.

Yes, but countering it is the belief in some circles that those who think like players on a "grand chessboard" will eventually seek to dominate Russia and china.

So, who do think will eventually "seek to dominate" Russia and china?

Interesting point. I believe that what has happened, in fact, is that China has already used the sanctions against Iran to haggle them into bargain basement prices for Iranian oil shipments to China. A little peek into life in the crocodile pen. Nobody in this is Iran's friend. In fact, and in America's favor, these people can't even see that they are allies who should be dealing honorably with one another. It's great to be American when you live in a world of venal suckers.

Do you mean that the USA and Iran should be allies? I am sorry, I'm confused on that one!

America has thought through this thing very thoroughly. It is difficult to see how that could happen, but Russia seizing the Ukraine or Georgia, . . . that's another matter. The big question for Russia is, "Is the Cold War over, or not?" America has been sending mixed signals.

I agree, America has been sending very mixed signals.....nato bases in the former eastern block are proof of that. I believed when I was younger the cold war was over, but after what I have seen in the last decade that I lived in Europe...I would say it was just a thaw.

Bad people will do anything they think they can get away with

Agreed as well. I'd like to know how far these people are willing to go.....at what cost? Would they really resort to things like nuclear war, just for resources? If so, then maybe it is true and we do have mad men running the asylum!

Originally posted by Mijamija

Yes, but countering it is the belief in some circles that those who think like players on a "grand chessboard" will eventually seek to dominate Russia and china.

So, who do think will eventually "seek to dominate" Russia and china?

Europe and the United States.

Originally posted by Mijamija
[

Interesting point. I believe that what has happened, in fact, is that China has already used the sanctions against Iran to haggle them into bargain basement prices for Iranian oil shipments to China. A little peek into life in the crocodile pen. Nobody in this is Iran's friend. In fact, and in America's favor, these people can't even see that they are allies who should be dealing honorably with one another. It's great to be American when you live in a world of venal suckers.

Do you mean that the USA and Iran should be allies? I am sorry, I'm confused on that one!

I'm simply saying that in the currently developing situation, contrary to what one might expect in a hemisphere where people see the advantages of cooperation when threatened, China, under pressure from the US in Africa and in the Pacific, instead of choosing to make an ally of Iran and support an important oil supplier, quickly jumps on the opportunity presented by sanctions, to haggle them down to bargain prices for oil, since Iran can't ship anywhere else anyway.

It would be wonderful if the US and Iran could be allies, but for that to happen "The Great Satan" would have to enter rehab, like Lindsay Lohan, and emerge a modern whipped cream saint, like Elton John, Bono, or Sting.

reply to post by ipsedixit


Do you think china chooses not to side with Iran because they have so many ties to the USA already? Do you think that maybe china sees that siding with Iran would bring the hell fire from the USA and they simply are not interested in going there?

I don't know.

But I think it would be crazy for china to tick off the west like that....not saying it won't happen!

I have been told many times on here I don't know what I am talking about, but that is mostly from people who are members of the public eg arm chair battle fighters, but I can tell you like it or not we are going to see some major event very soon that will shock 99% of earths people.
I cannot tell you details of what is to happen for reason that you can figure out yourself I think, but I can tell you a major conflict is close now, and if you think you have enough food/water/shelter/batteries/radios/torches/medicines/paper rolls/matches/cooking equipment ten you need not worry about WW3 soon, you will be okay, if your lacking stuff like that list then grab now while you can.

Originally posted by Alternative4u
I have been told many times on here I don't know what I am talking about, but that is mostly from people who are members of the public eg arm chair battle fighters, but I can tell you like it or not we are going to see some major event very soon that will shock 99% of earths people.
I cannot tell you details of what is to happen for reason that you can figure out yourself I think, but I can tell you a major conflict is close now, and if you think you have enough food/water/shelter/batteries/radios/torches/medicines/paper rolls/matches/cooking equipment ten you need not worry about WW3 soon, you will be okay, if your lacking stuff like that list then grab now while you can.

Are you the owner of a store that sells all of these supplies, in bulk, at low low prices, perchance? :-) After All the apocalypse is big business right now.

Contrary to what you've been told by 'Protect and Survive' and other such works of fiction, if there is a nuclear war/exchange, the chances of survival are very low, pack up as much batteries for your torches as much as you want, but they wont help you fight radiation sickness or help you when the entire planet is dead from a nuclear winter.

Originally posted by Mijamija
reply to post by ipsedixit

 

Do you think china chooses not to side with Iran because they have so many ties to the USA already? Do you think that maybe china sees that siding with Iran would bring the hell fire from the USA and they simply are not interested in going there?

I suspect that China and maybe to some extent Russia too, cannot believe what is happening. This happened to Russia right before Germany attacked it in WW2. Stalin refused to believe his own intelligence sources when they told him that an attack was immanent and even when they told him it would occur on a given date.

China and Russia have been through a lot. They want the "peace dividend". Americans have been fed so much baloney with regard to those nations that it is really embarassing. Those two nations want to build up their own prosperity. China, if anything, would like to strut around in front of Japan. That's it.

Russia is self sufficient, except in very sophisticated manufactured goods. They just want to do business, sort out their society and build a beautiful future.

Americans have decide to grab the marbles off the table. People don't like that. There are other ways.

Originally posted by ipsedixit
I think that NATO has decided to provoke a major war between Turkey and Syria, with the help of Turkey who must have been promised something big in exchange. Do they want anything big? Yes they do. You know they do. This is not rocket science.

yes but Turkey will never be a winner in this exchange !

An attack by Israel on Iran would be a confusing sideshow that might get in the way. Iran is definitely going to run into a lot of trouble in the not too distant future. Personally, I believe they would have, even if the nuclear issue were not at all an issue.

yes Nuclear issue is not an issue, it is false flag or an issue !

The fact of the matter is that the Americans intend to control all of the oil resources in the Middle East and Caspian Basin. Israel's security, Iran's potential nukes, the Arab Spring are all just pretexts for action to that end. They all have the utility of built in "proxies" through which to act.

no the spring has vivid roots of anti_colonialism and islamic concepts against Israel supported dictators.

Things are going great for America's plans. Soon Assad will be gone and Syria will assume "basket case" status just like Libya and Egypt. The Islamic world's worst characteristic, the inability to live and let live, will once again be used against it, to reduce it to a geopolitically impotent oil depot.

yes they are struggling to divert the situation for their benefits but I do not think so, you forgot the role of people and their will.

In the near future it will be the fate of Iran to have a chunk of territory cut out of it by the Americans, using the Kurds as proxies, in order to topple the Mullahs and reduce Iranian influence in the region.

no they can not, again you forgot the role of people. Iran has passed such tests already. war, coups, sanctions,...

Nobody likes Iran. But the point is that Russia and China, who are the real important entities being squeezed by the US in all this, are not friends of Iran.

yes Russia and China are worried for their own benefits as any other country including Iran !

Nobody likes a mouthy Mullah.

your sentences are strict. are you sure !?

Aren't Russia and China facing the American equivalent of the Iranian Mullahs, a crazy group determined to bring abouit a "New World Order" with themselves in charge and everyone else reduced to supporting roles?

so do you really think that there are only Russia and China and north america in this world ! there are lots of country that want to experience a fair new world order !

From the perspective of Russia and China, do they not seem to be between a rock and a hard place? On the one had they have the crazy Mullahs and their worldview and on the other hand they have the crazy oligarchs and their worldview. What to do?

what they are doing is to go after benefits, it is natural. moreover I prefer the worldview of that mullahs !

Would it not make some sense to send nuclear tipped warheads to Iran immediately, to put a halt to American expansion at Syria?

no. what can a nuclear weapon do ! this is exactly what america wants an excuse to put harsh pressures on Iran !

Would it be crazy to do so, given the seeming inability of Islamic cultures to control their emotions and impulses?

so do not motivate their emotions !

Originally posted by maes2

The fact of the matter is that the Americans intend to control all of the oil resources in the Middle East and Caspian Basin. Israel's security, Iran's potential nukes, the Arab Spring are all just pretexts for action to that end. They all have the utility of built in "proxies" through which to act.

no the spring has vivid roots of anti_colonialism and islamic concepts against Israel supported dictators.

There might be some language difficulty here. I'm not questioning the validity of the "spring". I'm saying that it has been hijacked by the Americans for their own purposes.

Things are going great for America's plans. Soon Assad will be gone and Syria will assume "basket case" status just like Libya and Egypt. The Islamic world's worst characteristic, the inability to live and let live, will once again be used against it, to reduce it to a geopolitically impotent oil depot.

yes they are struggling to divert the situation for their benefits but I do not think so, you forgot the role of people and their will.

The people have will but are not unified. They are often led by strongmen who are paid off by the Americans and Europeans.

Nobody likes a mouthy Mullah.

your sentences are strict. are you sure !?

I shouldn't say nobody. You are right. I mean nobody of significance in international politics.

Aren't Russia and China facing the American equivalent of the Iranian Mullahs, a crazy group determined to bring abouit a "New World Order" with themselves in charge and everyone else reduced to supporting roles?

so do you really think that there are only Russia and China and north america in this world ! there are lots of country that want to experience a fair new world order !

Among people in this forum the phrase New World Order is a reference to the idea of "world order" described by the Oligarchs of America and Europe. I agree that most people would like fairness and decency in life, but that is not what "New World Order" is usually taken to mean in discussions in these forums. In this case the words themselves lie.

Would it not make some sense to send nuclear tipped warheads to Iran immediately, to put a halt to American expansion at Syria?

no. what can a nuclear weapon do ! this is exactly what america wants an excuse to put harsh pressures on Iran !

There is a difference between an "excuse" and a "pretext". I don't think that nuclear weapons are at all related to America's desire to squash the government of the Mullahs in Iran, but they do scare people. Israel would never fly into Iranian territory if they believed that a nuclear tipped missile could be launched at Israel.

Would it be crazy to do so, given the seeming inability of Islamic cultures to control their emotions and impulses?

so do not motivate their emotions !

Unfortunately in our times it is not possible to seal the Muslim world off from emotional disturbances. In the past it was easier for people with delicate emotions to ignore the rest of the world. Those days are gone.

Originally posted by munkey66
your question is making the assumption that Iran would want a nuke.

If they accepted a nuke it would give strength the the west saying that Iran cant be trusted, not accepting a nuke gives them the moral high ground.

I'm sure they woud love to do the same thing to Pakstan, but why haven't they? They have nuclear weapons. Having a nuclear weapon certainly makes potential invaders think twice about invading. Maybe the same reason proxies are being used in Syria in the case of Chemical/Biological weapons.