Partisans.... Tomorrow Sees You

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posted on Oct, 11 2012 @ 11:46 PM
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Hello again ATS.

A couple of months ago I began to strongly temper my own political views because I realized that I'd starting becoming emotionally invested in what should be a logical decision making process. I caught myself defending things I didn't truly believe in simply because partisan division suggested I should. I caught myself posting the popular answer and not the one that felt right.

So I began posting about polarization, making threads about indoctrination, mind control, influence peddling, and so forth.

At that time I truly believed that America was as polarized and divided as a nation could be.

I have come, now, humbly before you ATS to say that I was wrong. And I wish to retract my previous statement about America being as polarized as was possible. Because over the past month, of sitting back and trying my best to not give into my own predispositions, I watched as.....

It all became even more polarized.

If this, the forums of ATS, were an actual space - in the real world - and somebody tossed in a few machetes" I don't know if I'd run for my life, or grab some popcorn. I truly believe that the blood is so thick in the water, and the emotions are so overpowering right now, that quite a few people would pick up those weapons and start swinging without a second thought.

Doesn't simple logic dictate that the way to compromise is to actually compromise? To find a set of solutions that leaves neither side totally sated, nor totally denied? Have we lost ( if we ever possessed it as a species ) the ability to say "I disagree but am willing to listen to your side of things"? When did we become so dogmatically entrenched that the very concept of the middle has become morally repugnant to those on both sides?

The worse the economy gets, the more polarized people become. To whose advantage is that?
Who controls that economy?
Would they knowingly abuse it as a means of divide and rule?
Would those being divided even recognize it if it where happening?
Would you, honestly, admit to it even if you did catch yourself getting caught up in the hysteria?

Most days I think that my psych diagnosis is a curse I have to struggle through. I have to second guess myself constantly because my emotions are not in sync with my rational mind... I feel things when I shouldn't and don't feel them when I should. But today? I'm thankful for the blessing of having a differently wired mind. Because of it I can see this without emotion. And I gotta tell you. It's ugly. On all sides. In all ways.

Everyone is screaming that we're going to lose America. Truth is we lost it before most of us were even born.

Can we ever hope to take it back? Maybe. But never like this. You can say what you want about Jefferson and Hamilton - but I truly feel that if they could see us now... they would be stunned and ashamed at what their good intentions have come to.

We have to do better than this people. We are insignificant when compared to those who will be born into the world we are currently forging for them.

~Heff




posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 12:02 AM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 


You have people who work to produce or are running a business, trying to make ends meet. And seeing the government as a roadblock to their success.

On the other hand, you also have people who do niether and expect to be taken care of. And expect the more fortunate to help.

50 Shades of Grey between them, but on a personnal level, they only see their own plight.

Perception is key.

edit on 12-10-2012 by TDawgRex because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 12:03 AM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 
A very interesting thing about this apparent polarization you mention is that it seems to break down the middle. Like fifty fifty. Obama at 48% Romney at 48%. This seems highly suspicious. Sounds contrived to me. Interestingly this even split seems to go back a long way.

And as far as losing America I think you are correct. All we wanted for a long time was more of the same with an emphasis on more. We let ourselves be turned into consumers dressed in red white and blue.



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 12:05 AM
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Come on all of you red and blue people, can't you see that we're all mostly purple?


On a related note, I am actually debating the topic of two party dominance currently, link down below.

Thought maybe putting the effort in for color would distract from the entire purpose of this post being a promotion.

Alright, I'll add some more....


Whether you hail from Surbiton, Ulan Bator or Nairobi, your genetic make-up is strikingly similar to that of every other person on Earth, an analysis concludes today.

Although scientists have long recognised that, despite physical differences, all human populations are genetically similar, the new work concludes that populations from different parts of the world share even more genetic similarities than previously assumed.

All humans are 99.9 per cent identical and, of that tiny 0.1 per cent difference, 94 per cent of the variation is among individuals from the same populations and only six per cent between individuals from different populations.
www.telegraph.co.uk...

Yup, everyone is the same. 99.9% genetically exactly the same. It's science. (Thought about a joke about republicans not respecting science, decided against it in the spirit of the thread).

Liberals are idiots (balancing previous parenthetical).

Red and blue divide us, purple will unite us.
edit on 10/12/2012 by PatrickGarrow17 because: color fail



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 12:05 AM
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Hi Heff,

Your probably not going to like my answer, but here goes...

Since the creation of the United States there has always been an interest to nullify our constitution. To weaken it and to eventually overthrow it.

This can not be done without waging war against the American people.

So get ready.



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 01:48 AM
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The irony here is that, even in posting this, I new it would die a quick death. This OP was authored from the point of view of a person truly calling out, into the darkness, hoping to hear voices with similar messages.

It was a lost cause from the beginning. Calm is always lost in the maelstrom.

It truly does pain me that, eventually, I'll have to pick sides again, and reenter the arena. Once there I'll have to bloody my sword for one King or another - and respect Neither of them as rulers. The term "Lesser of two evils" really doesn't apply in this case, for a variety or reasons. POTUS elections are about hiring the spokesperson for a party - and not the actual political party itself. More, I'll have to decide which lie to believe, or which liar spoke the prettier words. And then I will bloody my sword on behalf of a cause that is mired in lies, led by false Kings, and created by career criminals.

In this case, my sword is my mind. And the idea of bloodying it with the blood of either side not only pains me, on a human level... but disgusts me because I know that doing so will forever foul my blade.

I often see claims that America will soon become another Greece... with mass protests and the like. I disagree. Take it from an old, and far-too over experienced street fighter. When two groups get this angry at one another - blood will flow.

The first civil war was predicated upon slavery - but was really about states rights VS Federal rights.
The next will be predicated upon class - but will really be about Corporate rights VS human rights.

I am not claiming any particular religious beliefs here ( to avoid that devolution of the thread ) but when I was a kid and was taught of the concept of Antichrist, I could not conceive of a world where such a person could come along and easily seize power.

Today? I see such a world. A place where another Jack Kennedy or Reagan might come along and forge a majority by stealing large numbers from both sides.

And if he does? We'll all call him a hero and hand him the keys to the kingdom.

Amazing stuff.

~Heff



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 01:59 AM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 




Can we ever hope to take it back? Maybe. But never like this. You can say what you want about Jefferson and Hamilton - but I truly feel that if they could see us now... they would be stunned and ashamed at what their good intentions have come to.

Appealing to what the founding fathers "would say/think" is a common meme that is tossed around by those ignorant of history. Hamilton not only lived to see a patriot act like law passed in his day, he helped write it.
en.wikipedia.org...
edit on 12-10-2012 by Superhans because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 02:13 AM
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reply to post by Superhans
 


You've missed the point. I am not speaking about the Constitution. I am speaking about the nation they founded. The people.

Terrible laws have come and gone since the beginning. The Sedition Act is an example ( I apologize if that's what you linked - I have not clicked the link yet ). The Constitution was designed to be a living document - that is why the Framers included rules for changing it.

I meant how they'd see us... a nation struggling and dividing. A house divided. Their foundation, cracking beneath the imbalance of the house built upon it.

~Heff



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 02:24 AM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 




I meant how they'd see us... a nation struggling and dividing. A house divided. Their foundation, cracking beneath the imbalance of the house built upon it.

I just don't see how much different it is, you had republicans and democrats back then, you also had a nation so polarized that it latter went into a civil war. I think people just have a very distorted view of how things used to be.



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 02:26 AM
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reply to post by Superhans
 


Back then it was Tories versus Colonials - and then Federalists against the Democratic-Republican party.

When the Constitution was drafted, and George Washington became POTUS - there were no political parties. Their advent came during his term - and against his wishes.

~Heff



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 02:29 AM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 




and then Federalists against the Democratic-Republican party.

And how is that different than the Libertarians against the Democratic-Republican party?


Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by Superhans
 


Back then it was Tories versus Colonials - and then Federalists against the Democratic-Republican party.

When the Constitution was drafted, and George Washington became POTUS - there were no political parties. Their advent came during his term - and against his wishes.

~Heff


other than just responding to respond, was there a point here you were trying to make that I missed?
edit on 12-10-2012 by Superhans because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 02:33 AM
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reply to post by Superhans
 


This will explain the differences.

As far as the OP topic goes. The Framers, in some cases, strongly disagreed with one another on a variety of issues. But they remained United and able to negotiate a final document.

Today? If we were to hold another such Convention? Just as in the 1850's - we'd end up with two separate nations and not one united one.

~Heff



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 02:37 AM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 


Heff, just my two cents.

There is a group in America that makes lots of demands for themselves, but they don't do anything to the benefit of society or each other or America. They are selfish people and they care not for their country, but their own vanities and pocketbooks.

Time has come to thin the herd.

We can not change this country simply by hanging out on the street with signs.



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 02:45 AM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 




This will explain the differences.


Really? Did you really just throw a wiki article out instead of just trying to say what you were trying to say?
That does not explain how the "polarization" and division of the Federalists and the Rep-Dem parties was different than the polarization and division of the Libertarians rep-dem parties.
Its an article on Wikipedia inserted to take the place of a coherent argument.



The Framers, in some cases, strongly disagreed with one another on a variety of issues. But they remained United and able to negotiate a final document.

That is until some "farmers" decided that the south should be its own country and succeeded from the union.



Today? If we were to hold another such Convention? Just as in the 1850's - we'd end up with two separate nations and not one united one.

You do realize that the peace that resulted from the happy get along convention you see through your rose colored history glasses only lasted for 11 years until the compromise erupted into a full blown civil war right? You kind of destroyed your own argument there and personally I hope we never have something like the compromise of 1850 again because it clearly did not work and it DID result in two separate nations.



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 02:46 AM
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reply to post by thehoneycomb
 


Slow down....what herd are you saying needs to be thinned?

I'm about to go into full blown rant mode, because this is killing me.

PEOPLE ARE ACTING LIKE AMERICA IS WORTHLESS. This is nonsense. It is a highly reactionary perspective based on a few bad years, which really HAVEN'T been that bad. Right now, we still have a ton of economic production, a ton of wealth creation. If anyone out there in the world has a GREAT IDEA, you want to be in America. Our market is the best, our colleges are the best, our R&D is the best, our investing culture is top notch.

We're a few good years away from being ay okay, ease up on the violent revolution talk. We need an intellectual, philosophical revolution. Which is in fact, going to happen. Internet and social media is new, and has been abused. But these are the tools that will allow for superior ideas to spread. As we refine our educational systems to maximize the potential of these tools, and create a better learning culture, Americans will be smarter consumers, smarter voters, and still the most dynamic population on Earth.

But nah, lets go kill a bunch before that happens.


We're in a transitional phase, that should be obvious. Growing pains shouldn't be a cause for suicide.
edit on 10/12/2012 by PatrickGarrow17 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 02:52 AM
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Originally posted by thehoneycomb
reply to post by Hefficide
 

There is a group in America that makes lots of demands for themselves, but they don't do anything to the benefit of society or each other or America. They are selfish people and they care not for their country, but their own vanities and pocketbooks.

Time has come to thin the herd.

We can not change this country simply by hanging out on the street with signs.


Interesting, thing the herd?

Okay lets take two scenarios and see who does what for the country.

Lets say all the people hanging out on the streets with signs all moved to Russia and take everything they own with them overnight, what would happen? A few million jobs open up? less unemployment gets distributed? Less people receive welfare?

Now lets say some super rich guy like Mike Duke, lets say he takes off and takes everything with him, what would happen? Over two million jobs-GONE



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 02:53 AM
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reply to post by Superhans
 


1) Yes, I sourced Wiki. Did you read the information provided there? You do understand that using sources is considered more polite and practical debate practice than straw men. Correct?
2) I said "Framers" not "farmers"
3) My reference was not directed toward pre Civil War compromises. It was referencing the build-up to - and the Civil War itself.

The information has been provided, as has my opinion. Your opinion has been stated as well. If we agree to disagree, then so be it.

~Heff



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 02:54 AM
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reply to post by PatrickGarrow17
 


Im speaking of the people on the extreme left that want to collect welfare checks, not work and spend this country into oblivion with other peoples money.

By thinning the heard, I mean laying down some strict guidelines and if they want to stop with the games and help put this country back together then great.

But if they want to sit around and protest that their union salaries or their welfare checks arent big enough, then they have other things coming. We need to cut them off and deal with the aftermath, whatever that entails.



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 02:57 AM
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Originally posted by thehoneycomb
reply to post by Hefficide
 


Heff, just my two cents.

There is a group in America that makes lots of demands for themselves, but they don't do anything to the benefit of society or each other or America. They are selfish people and they care not for their country, but their own vanities and pocketbooks.

Time has come to thin the herd.

We can not change this country simply by hanging out on the street with signs.


What group do you speak of? The poor? If so then you are misled greatly. They perform most of the rudimentary work that allows a nation to run. Manufacturing, waste disposal, retail, food supply, shipping. They are the spine of any society and, without them, no society can stand.

Thin the herd? Kill off the weak? What happens, then, when you or your loved ones are declared "unfit"? Will you stand by that principle then?

And, for the record, I have never stood on any street, holding any sign, in my life.

~Heff



posted on Oct, 12 2012 @ 03:00 AM
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reply to post by Hefficide
 





1) Yes, I sourced Wiki. Did you read the information provided there? You do understand that using sources is considered more polite and practical debate practice than straw men. Correct?


No sourcing is when you say something like "Lincoln was born in 1809 en.wikipedia.org...(president)". What you did is say "This will explain the differences. " which it didn't, you just threw a long article out to dodge answering a question.



2) I said "Framers" not "farmers"

my mistake



3) My reference was not directed toward pre Civil War compromises. It was referencing the build-up to - and the Civil War itself.

And now you are not making any sense. So division and polarization is sooooooooo much worse today than it was in your version of history but you at the same time realize that the way they did things back then divided them to the point of civil war.





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