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Originally posted by TheAngryFarm
reply to post by Rubic0n
I dont know, and I dont claim to know. I can only speculate as to why and the chief reason I believe would be to avoid pissing off more retarded muslims who cry, riot, and murder every time the wind changes direction
I rely on common sense
I've answered a few of your questions, how about you answer a single one of mine:
Where is your evidence to the contrary?edit on 15-11-2012 by TheAngryFarm because: (no reason given)
And your irrefutable proof of this is from where?
Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by OratoryHeist
And your irrefutable proof of this is from where?
I can never have irrefutable proof of anything; I don’t even have irrefutable truth that you or I for that matter exist. One can only determine truth with knowledge and a little bit of trust. So what is my “proof”, what is that makes me “know” that Bin Laden died during Operation Neptune Spear, let me tell you.
I know Bin Laden died that day because
• The President of the United States said so
• Al-Qa’ida confirmed that Bin Laden had been killed
The Internet statement, the first by the terror network since its leader was slain in a U.S. commando raid against his Pakistani hideout, was apparently designed to convince followers that it will remain vigorous and intact even after its founder's demise.
"The blood of the holy warrior sheik, Osama bin Laden, God bless him, is too precious to us and to all Muslims to go in vain," the statement said. "We will remain, God willing, a curse chasing the Americans and their agents, following them outside and inside their countries."
"Soon, God willing, their happiness will turn to sadness," it said, "their blood will be mingled with their tears."
Former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook wrote that the word al-Qaeda should be translated as "the database", and originally referred to the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen militants who were recruited and trained with CIA help to defeat the Russians
Shortly before his untimely death, former British Foreign Secretary Robin Cook told the House of Commons that “Al Qaeda” is not really a terrorist group but a database of international mujaheddin and arms smugglers used by the CIA and Saudis to funnel guerrillas, arms, and money into Soviet-occupied Afghanistan. Courtesy of World Affairs, a journal based in New Delhi, WMR can bring you an important excerpt from an Apr.-Jun. 2004 article by Pierre-Henry Bunel, a former agent for French military intelligence.
the database was divided into two parts, the information file where the participants in the meetings could pick up and send information they needed, and the decision file where the decisions made during the previous sessions were recorded and stored. In Arabic, the files were called, ‘Q eidat il-Maaloomaat’ and ‘Q eidat i-Taaleemaat.’ Those two files were kept in one file called in Arabic ‘Q eidat ilmu’ti’aat’ which is the exact translation of the English word database. But the Arabs commonly used the short word Al Qaida which is the Arabic word for “base.” The military air base of Riyadh, Saudi Arabia is called ‘q eidat ‘riyadh al ‘askariya.’ Q eida means “a base” and “Al Qaida” means “the base.”
“Because of the presence of ‘rogue states,’ it became easy for terrorist groups to use the email of the database. Hence, the email of Al Qaida was used, with some interface system, providing secrecy, for the families of the mujaheddin to keep links with their children undergoing training in Afghanistan, or in Libya or in the Beqaa valley, Lebanon. Or in action anywhere in the battlefields where the extremists sponsored by all the ‘rogue states’ used to fight. And the ‘rogue states’ included Saudi Arabia. When Osama bin Laden was an American agent in Afghanistan, the Al Qaida Intranet was a good communication system through coded or covert messages.
Meet “Al Qaeda”
“The truth is, there is no Islamic army or terrorist group called Al Qaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an identified entity representing the ‘devil’ only in order to drive the ‘TV watcher’ to accept a unified international leadership for a war against terrorism. The country behind this propaganda is the US and the lobbyists for the US war on terrorism are only interested in making money.”
• The media at the time all reported that he had been killed
• Every world leader to my knowledge has now accepted that
Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by Rubic0n
You are guilty of the classical conspiracy theorists deflection an inability to stay on topic. Take your first point for example, what on earth does the absence of WMD in Iraq have to do with the death of Bin Laden.
Owh , so you did get it ? Then why are you complaining that it is of-topic?
The two are not related all you have done is tell me that presidents can lie,
you need to look at all the evidence that’s what I have tried to do.
If all I had was “because Obama told me so” then yes I would be open to all kinds of problems
but when the evidence backs up his claims then I can be more confident in what he had to say of being the truth.
The “so the internet convinced you” comment, again we have multiple sources all saying Al-Qa’ida confirm Bin Laden’s death yet to argue against this all you have to say is nothing, you have nothing to say otherwise. That’s not an argument, that’s just an observation, so yes the internet told me, what of it?
Once again what you are saying about Robin Cook, that has nothing to do with what we are talking about.
I can tell you that what Cook said was utter rubbish
Its totally of topic and does nothing to negate any of the 15 or so points I raised above its just an attempt at deflection.
Same with all those video’s you showed me, what do they have to do with the killing of Bin Laden all they do is deflect form the debate at hand.
Also I don’t know what you need me to clarify, what I am saying is that to my knowledge there has yet to be a single world leader who has said Bin Laden did not die that day.
Please stop with this “you can’t think for yourself” mentality you have of me. My posts hear speak for themselves it is because I think for myself that I know Bin Laden died that day.
I find it really quite insulting to my intelligence when you post baseless comments like that.
Now when you respond to this this post, keep it on topic I don’t want you posting a video about how Al-Qa’ida was created by the CIA
What I want is proof form you that Bin Laden did not die during operation Neptune Spear, if you can’t find it just admit to it, and if your wrong about the whole thing then admit to that as well or if you are incapable of a grown up debate just move on.
Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by Rubic0n
PS: sorry if I am coming across as harsh when it comes to your shortcomings in debating with me,
Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by OratoryHeist
I can never have irrefutable proof of anything; I don’t even have irrefutable truth that you or I for that matter exist. One can only determine truth with knowledge and a little bit of trust. So what is my “proof”, what is that makes me “know” that Bin Laden died during Operation Neptune Spear, let me tell you.
I know Bin Laden died that day because
• The President of the United States said so
• Al-Qa’ida confirmed that Bin Laden had been killed
• The media at the time all reported that he had been killed
• Every world leader to my knowledge has now accepted that Bin Laden died that day
• I have read all 3 of the main books on Operation Neptune spear that all state Bin laden died and how he died in quite some detail (I highly recommend reading Peter Bergan)
• The Twitter feeds form people in Abbottabad
• Press coverage at the time of the operation and in his immediate aftermath
• Testimony from his family, who all say he is dead
• Pakistan’s response to his death
• The Stealth helicopter that turned up in Abbottabad
• The fact that to date nobody of any significance directly involved in that operation has ever said anything to substantiate any claims that it did not happen.
• The fact that if Bin Laden was still alive he would quite easy become the biggest lie in American history that no president would ever want as a legacy.
• Press coverage after the incident, in particular that form the Wall Street Journal and the Guardian
• Events after the operation such as, the conviction of the Doctor who was a CIA asset, the accounts from Pakistan about finding his children at the scene and wounded persons.
• There was no substantiated proof that he died before may 1st 2011 that has been confirmed, only speculation.
Now yes a photo would probably make my conviction that Bin Laden is dead even stronger, but with that mightily weight of evidence I don’t feel like I really need one.
Now please stop with your stupid insults I am not interested, how about you actually try to debate this with me.
Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by OratoryHeist
So according to you Bin Laden didn’t die that day and the President lied about it because the CIA/Mossad are controlling or influencing Al-Qa’ida, the twitter feeds where faked and the helicopter was just a prop as for the doctor he was an actor and everything in the media has been propaganda including the books written on the subject which were also propaganda. To cover all of this up “they” paid off and made threats against everyone involved who are all lying including Bin Laden’s family, government of the world and the entire world media. I want some proof anything atoll just something that backs up your claims otherwise they are just your delusions.
If the only reason you don’t believe that Bin Laden died that day is the absence of a photo, that’s fine just say so.
But don’t start dictating to me that he didn’t die that day without some other kind proof. I have given you numerous points of evidence that lead me to believe that Bin Laden died that day that you can go and check out for yourself unless you can give me some proof that he didn’t then please stop with your conspiracy theorist conjecture and speculation as it proves nothing.
At this junction in the debate it is your turn to show me your proof that Bin Laden did not die that day.
Can we say for sure a mission to kill someone happened that day? No
Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
We are always going to have that small chance that the entire thing was a cover up but the odds of that being true in the face of the evidence available to say it did happen is so small I don’t give such claims any credibility.
I can’t be 100% certain that the earth is round because I have personally not observed it as being round. However when I look at the sum of the evidence and with a little bit of trust I can say with 99.999% that it is round.
The same applies to Operation Neptune Spear, I can only know for 100% certainty that it took place if I was a member of Seal Team Six and took part in the operation and even then there could be room for doubt.
That is the problem with your argument.
To argue that it did not happen therefore you cannot simply say “you weren’t there so you don’t know” which is what your argument all comes down to.
Really what you need to do if you are going to really start a debate on this is say to me “this operation never took place…. Here is some evidence”.
So far the group of people saying that this never took part have yet to provide any substance to their claims other than pointing out that there is no photo then citing a number of other possibilities that resulted in Bin Laden’s death or as you like to argue, “unless you were there you can’t know for absolute certainty”. Now that in the face of the reasons that I believe the operation did take place is not enough to weakling my views or even question them.