American vs Canadian Justice: Two recent cases of child abuse

Originally posted by rtyfx
Some of you are blind with hate and anger. All you have to throw at me is a label, troll.

What would you label yourselves?

Someone who thinks a person who is capable of beating a 2 year old girl to within an inch of her life and biting her all over her body deserves more than 18 freakin months in prison?

Murder isn't the answer.

reply to post by DeadSeraph

I was stabbed and almost lost my eye. My mother got nothing, yet you see my attitude.

Why are you so angry?

I want to tread very lightly here, as I momentarily shift focus. From the source:

“The conduct that Aboriginals were subjected to in residential schools is a shameful scar on Canadian history that continues to perpetuate a cycle of violence,” said Philp. “T.G.’s actions are not excused by his Aboriginal heritage, but they are in part explained by it. He is not absolved of responsibility, but his moral culpability may be reduced.”

The judge also noted that T.G. pleaded guilty, he had no prior criminal record, he attended rehab for four months, he is gainfully employed and he read out a “powerful apology letter which showed true remorse” in court.

How powerful, in Canada, is the effect of "Aboriginal heritage?' Do courts feel that they are somehow, as a group, to be less punished for crimes? If his relatives had not claimed he was abused, would his "heritage" have any significance?

Originally posted by rtyfx
Murder isn't the answer.

Who said murder? I can't see it mentioned directly once.

Seems like you have been predisposed in all your posts.

Fail...

Originally posted by rtyfx
reply to post by DeadSeraph

 

I was stabbed and almost lost my eye. My mother got nothing, yet you see my attitude.

Why are you so angry?

I'm outraged because I expect the Canadian justice system to do a better job of prosecuting people who abuse children. I'm disgusted because at least in the U.S, someone who committed such a heinous crime is looking at 45 years in prison while in my own country a similar case ended up with the assailant receiving a pathetic and shameful 18 months in prison.

You keep indicating I am some kind of monster because I have a sense of justice that doesn't reflect your own. I'm sorry you went through what you did, but that does not mean I somehow support murder. Your efforts to grossly misrepresent my character and opinions are getting really tedious.

reply to post by BaneOfQuo

Capital punishment, murder, it's all the same.

reply to post by rtyfx


Who said capital punishment? From what I have read it seems like people are under the belief that the American system would have offered a longer jail term.

I think your judgement is clouded here.

I think the sentence is way to short for the crime. Canada's legal system is what it is. Justice is blind, so sometimes she makes a mistake on a appropiate punishment.

I wonder if the story has more details

reply to post by DeadSeraph

I find you irrationally emotional. I understand you are upset. That is very clear.

I don't understand why you are taking this personally. I have expressed my opinion from a fairly intimate viewpoint. I don't see any reason to get so angry about it.

Originally posted by rtyfx
reply to post by BaneOfQuo

 

Capital punishment, murder, it's all the same.

I like how you have completely derailed my thread because I posted ONE line out of frustration in my OP (which I later admitted was made in haste, and due to frustration).

If you'd like to get back on topic now (the topic is NOT capital punishment, btw), maybe you could contribute something of substance to the conversation by answering the questions I asked in the last paragraph of the OP?

So you feel the US term of 45 years is reasonable?

Originally posted by DeadSeraph

People like this should be put to sleep.

If you weren't referring to murder here, what were you talking about?

I was also treated very badly by my step-dad - more than a few hospital visits because of him. Once he broke my cheek bone and I missed school for a month to avoid questioning. He was sick and twisted in his punishments too, not in a sexual way but in a physically abusive and emotionally/psychologically humiliating way. I am glad to say that he has seen the errors in his ways as he grew older and wiser. I hated him with my entire being when I was young, and now I'm wise enough to realize that he was young and didn't know how to handle himself in stressful situations. I'm glad he wasn't "put to sleep" because not only would he never have had the chance to change that part of himself, but I wouldn't have the relationship with him I do today.

I think the point we're trying to make is that murder is never the answer. I agree with you 100% that 18 months is a very light sentence, and I hope it's at least followed by therapy and active parole/probation where the individual is checked on often. They should also not be allowed to be around children unsupervised until a therapist in conjunction with a court deems them fit to do so. As the other poster you labeled as a 'troll' for having a very valid opinion was stating, abuse happens in cycles. The abused continue to abuse, and so on, until the chain is broken. There are more ways to break the chain than killing the abuser, or not allowing them to have children.

I have a son and a daughter, neither of which will ever see the kind of punishment I had as a child. In my experience my poor childhood is a huge factor in why I treat my children so much better than I was treated. So sometimes the cycle stops without any serious intervention or action from any outside force.

It's horrible what these people have done, but "putting them to sleep" would make us just as horrible. I hope you see that.

Originally posted by rtyfx
So you feel the US term of 45 years is reasonable?

Given the fact the woman superglued her 2 year old daughter to a wall and then beat her into a coma and bit her all over her body, I feel it's in the ballpark. Certain factors would need to be considered of course (her psychological state, past, criminal record, etc).

Bare in mind 45 years is what the prosecutors are after and not the actual sentence (which has yet to be handed down). The actual sentence will likely be much less than that. At any rate, I feel the sentence the prosecution is after demonstrates a fundamental difference in how Americans and Canadians approach justice. I would argue the target should probably be somewhere in the middle.

reply to post by DeadSeraph

It's the difference between democracy and socialism.

Originally posted by rtyfx
I'm a ma'am, retired law enforcement.

Vile behavior towards the offenders does not negate what happens to these kids.

i agree with everything you have written.
to often onlookers rail against wrongdoers and demand their elimination from life.

better they spend their energys campaining against political injustices killing millions.

Originally posted by orangutang

Originally posted by rtyfx
I'm a ma'am, retired law enforcement.

Vile behavior towards the offenders does not negate what happens to these kids.

i agree with everything you have written.
to often onlookers rail against wrongdoers and demand their elimination from life.

better they spend their energys campaining against political injustices killing millions.

Excuse me? So we shouldn't care about how criminals are prosecuted, but we should care about how politicians are being prosecuted? Aren't they kind of one and the same?

What would you suggest a corrupt official who has the blood of millions on their hands receive as a sentence? Time served and 4 months emotional counseling to get in touch with their higher self?

I view a weak justice system that lets someone like the dirt bag in the OP walk with 18 months jail time as a political injustice, tyvm.

Originally posted by charles1952
I want to tread very lightly here, as I momentarily shift focus. From the source:

“The conduct that Aboriginals were subjected to in residential schools is a shameful scar on Canadian history that continues to perpetuate a cycle of violence,” said Philp. “T.G.’s actions are not excused by his Aboriginal heritage, but they are in part explained by it. He is not absolved of responsibility, but his moral culpability may be reduced.”

The judge also noted that T.G. pleaded guilty, he had no prior criminal record, he attended rehab for four months, he is gainfully employed and he read out a “powerful apology letter which showed true remorse” in court.

The fact that he had no prior criminal record, plead guilty & attended rehab while showing remorse and being apologetic does nothing to change the facts that his actions were disgusting regardless of his prior abuse. I often feel many guilty use this as a crutch to get off easier for their actions. In this case, not being a judge but I would say that is exactly what he has done... likely knowingly. Just my thoughts.

Originally posted by charles1952How powerful, in Canada, is the effect of "Aboriginal heritage?' Do courts feel that they are somehow, as a group, to be less punished for crimes? If his relatives had not claimed he was abused, would his "heritage" have any significance?

This however is absolutely not true in most cases. Sometimes it would seem families which have a higher status are given better rights than others, but for the most part, usually the case is quite opposite.

---
Regardless this is a disgusting act on both parts, American and Canadian. Getting into the Justice aspect of it is a very tough thing to do but I definitely understand the outrage which we share.

The sad fact is that they're closing even more prisons... a linky

My friend is a warden. The system is overtaxed as it is and a lot of low rist criminals are going to be set free when they close the others they were planning on shutting down.

Prisons are costing us billions and in the end, the government just sees numbers. AND YET... some prisons have programs so amazing, you wonder why you obey the law at all. Some of those people live way better than the working poor do.


Point is hospitals, schools, prisons are all suffering major cut backs, we're steadily being taxed at increasing increments... where is all the money going if they're making more and paying for less?

I am looking in the faces of people who are divided by the elites.

"Oh , BTW , We have best justice after all."

Originally posted by DeadSeraph
I'm curious... Do you have children? How liberal would you be about it if someone did that to your 2 year old girl? 2 years is more than light. It's a disgrace to justice.

Not wishing to interrupt the lovely discussion going on here. I have children and I am appalled by these two crimes. On the face of it, I think the Canadian sentence is too lenient and the US sentence too high.

I also reflect a earlier comment that some of the comments made on this post are inappropriate and just epitomise the savagery in our society which indirectly leads people to treat children abusively, as well as elderly and others who cannot defend themselves.

Crying out that people who abuse should in turn be abused shows a lack of thinking, IMHO.

Regards