2nd Amendment: New York State Pistol Permit Process

There have been multiple threads on ATS regarding the U.S. Constitution and the 2nd Amendment: The Right to Bear Arms, given the amount of gun violence of late. Every year it seems there is a mass shooting somewhere in the United States; each incident producing arguments for and against the availability of civilians to obtain, not only firearms, but variant types of assault weapons and ammunition. There are lobbyist groups for and against firearms, most notably the NRA for pro-2nd Amendment rights. The most notable argument I have heard against 2nd Amendment rights is that this was drafted in a time in our country when the need for the average citizen was necessary. Opponents of the 2nd Amendment claim the amendment was designed to arm a well-regulated militia, which didn’t include civilians.

As a veteran and a patriot, I obviously support 2nd Amendment rights. Having said this, however, I do not believe the obtainment of a pistol permit should be carte blanche. Obtaining rifles and shotguns are significantly easier to obtain the handguns, but we’ll address that later in the thread. There must be a significant vetting process to ensure firearms stay out of the hands of violent felons and the mentally unfit. You see, for both pro- and anti- firearm folks, there is a dynamic of beliefs, with a range of opinions and beliefs; lots of grey, little black-n-white. But I think this is true of life in general. The black-n-white we learned as ideal youths blends to grey of adulthood. That has been my experience anyways. In regards to 2nd Amendment rights, I believe our Founding Fathers knew exactly what they were doing when they drafted the Right to Bear Arms. By including the 2nd Amendment in the Bill of Rights, in essence, the Constitutional drafters ensured that these rights belonged to the people, and protected the rights of the individual, not the masses. A review of the language of the 2nd Amendment also gives insight into the thoughts and intentions of the drafters. At a time when this country already had an established army, the inclusion of the word militia in the 2nd Amendment reveals our four fathers wanted civilians and individuals to be well armed. You cannot have a well-regulated militia if private citizens are not armed. We had just fought against a tyrannical government; the drafters knew the citizens had to be well armed to keep future politicians (criminals) at bay.

Recently, Time Magazine has published several articles on firearms, from various authors, and mainly from opposition points of view. I don’t believe the articles have been completely fair and/or unbiased. Time Magazine reports gun violence in America “is off the chart compared to every other country on the planet.” Now, while this may be true, other types of violence such as blunt and penetrating trauma is much higher in other countries than in the U.S. I think it is worthy to mention that one of Time Magazine’s authors, Fareed Zakaria, published a Time Magazine article that bore close resemblance to Jill Lepore’s essay in The New Yorker. Zakaria admitted him mistake, offered apologies to his employer, his readers, and Ms. Lepore. What I don’t understand were
Mr.Zakaria’s motives for doing such a forgery, since he offered none (that I recall).

A thread was posted on ATS recently about the author’s disdain of firearms. Although I obviously do not agree with the author’s opinion, I do give the author credit for posting his thoughts on a public forum. I thought the thread was a little bit elementary, as there have been countless threads on the subject. To validate this argument today and develop a substantial thread, we as ATS members should really approach the debate from an entirely unique perspective. Personally, I approach the gun issues that I post on ATS from my own experiences. This allows me to speak practically and realistically. I think many people, especially anti-firearm folk, base their opinions on theory and third-hand speak, not from personal, practical, or realistic experiences. Politician are notorious for doing this; especially when they piggy-back legislation on parts of other, more important laws and regulations. This can be particularly amusing to watch when journalists ask politicians about these “little shoe-ins.” It’s funny to watch them squirm. If I’m not mistaken this is a type of practice is known as pork barrel politics.

I won’t mention the thread or the ATS member handle publicly but I will divulge the information to certain members I’m friends with. I think the member is somewhat new and a little green and so I don’t want to embarrass him. Well, he posted a statement in his thread that almost made my head spin. He said something to the effect “A ban on firearms would only punish the criminals. I had never ever heard that statement before, not even from anti-firearm folks. It makes no sense. I tried to explain to the OP that a total ban on all firearms, with the exception of LEOs and the military, would be Criminals. Criminals don’t care about laws and regulations. He disagreed. I can only remark that the OP lacked any practical experience with firearms or gun legislation. I have a term I “feel-good legislation.” This type of legislation makes politicians feel like they are doing something about gun control and it also makes their constituents feel like their proposing restrictive legislation on firearms. In reality, contrary to what the OP believes, this type of gun control only hurts law-abiding citizens and does absolutely nothing to prevent those who should have not firearms from obtaining them. A great example of this is the disparity between obtaining a handgun and obtaining a long gun, including rifles and shotguns. In New York State, it may take up to six months to obtain a pistol permit; however, provided an applicant is not a felon, a person can walk out of any Bass Pro Shop or Gander Mountain with any rifle or shot gun, up to and including a Barrett .50 caliber sniper rifle (provided you have the $5000 to spend that day)! The hypocrisy is that the FBI background check does nothing to prevent an emotional or psychologically unstable person from obtaining that weapon. I tried explaining to the OP that one more aggravated felony on a criminal’s record would mean very little to him/her. One last and recent example of feel-good legislation is micro-stamping. Our governor, Andrew Coumo, who has an approval rate of like over 67%, has also been sucked into “feel-good” gun legislation in order to look tough on gun violence. Governor Coumo has been quoted as saying micro-stamping will result in the solving of more murders. It’s amazing how naïve this statement is. Micro-stamping may help solve a homicide if the person committing the crime is legally licensed to that weapon. More than likely this describes a domestic abuse scenario resulting in a death. A spouse or partner is typically considered a prime suspect until ruled out in most homicide cases. Having micro-stamped ammunition may help conclude this type of crime but micro-stamping will provide little supporting evidence in cases in which the criminal is not registered to the weapon, which most likely is going to be the case.




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All of the craziness of gun control legislation gets even more insane during election years; if that’s possible! Lol.

One thing we can all agree on is that the world our children live in today is significantly different than the world we grew up in as children. Mass shootings have been documented in all settings from hospitals to pop warner foot ball games, to grocery stores, etc, etc. Truth is you are safe nowhere. It is our responsibility to protect ourselves and our families. It is our responsibility to mitigate illicit risks to the best of our abilities, within reason of course. Balance is a must. We don’t have to be trained ninjas, but we must not be helpless either. Criminals are getting smarter, but bolder as well. For starters, for home defense I would say the best protection is a dog, preferably one with a loud bark. I doubt a criminal would continue to break into a home despite being alerted to the presence of a large, barking K-9. If more aggressive measures are deemed necessary and you choose to purchase a firearm then you need to spend a considerable amount of time researching what type of weapon will best suit the needs of you and your family.

Back to the thread title: Pistol Permit license: New York State. New York State is a closed-carry state, meaning all handguns must be concealed, when not in used. According to NYS penal law, all pistol permits all considered Unrestricted, unless a judge places a restriction on it. Typically pistol permits will be unrestricted or premises-only. With a premises-only permit, the weapon may only be kept at the house, or secured in a vehicle for travel to and fro for target practice. A premises-only permit requires the weapon and ammo be secured similar to that of a long gun. This means the firearm and ammo must be secured separately and independent of each other in different compartments of the vehicle. Contrary to an unrestricted permit, the weapon and ammo may be carried together. Firearms may not be carried in any federal buildings, state, or county buildings, including courts. Educational facilities are also off limits. You may not shoot within five hundred feet of a residence without express permission of the home owner or within five hundred feet of a road. A pistol permit may also be permitted for a business-only as well, such as with the transport of large sums of money. When carrying your handgun it is necessary to have on-person your pistol permit. There are no laws, however, requiring a pistol permit holder to inform the officer (if stopped by LE) to notify that LEO that you are a legally license handgun owner. It is recommended, however, that if specially asked about firearms you be honest and inform the officer and wait for his or her directions. At this time in NY, at least where I live, there is no communication between law enforcement agencies and the county(s) a licensee has a permit, CCW or premises-only. Even in the county of issue, the deputies have no idea you have a licensed firearm. Magazines are restricted to 10 rounds only. Pre-ban 30 round magazines are permitted but the onus rests with the owner to be able to prove the magazine is pre-ban (I believe it is 1994). There are plenty of these 30 round magazines available at gun shows but in my experience I have found them unreliable, often having feeding problems, usually related to spring problems. Be careful of what you buy there…keeping your receipts is useless.

Previously, few states recognized a NY permit because NY had reciprocity with few states. Updates to this include the following: IA now honors NYS permit, WI now honors NYS permit, NC now honors NYS permit, MI now honors NYS permit. A New York State issued permit is valid in all regions of the state, with the exception of the 5 burrows.

Speaking of New York City…Is New York City’s Gun Law Unconstitutional? The short answer is yes. Yes, it is. Some would argue the restrictions placed on the five burrows is unconstitutional and illegal. “First of all, gun possession is presumptively illegal here. There are only narrow exceptions where someone might get a license to own one. Just applying for the license is prohibitively expensive and takes a very long time. The licensing decision is purely at the discretion of a bureaucrat, who also has complete discretion to revoke the license later. A statistically insignificant number of licenses actually get granted. Of the few licenses that are granted, the vast majority are extremely limited in scope. And even with a license, one’s gun must be kept disassembled or locked up, with any ammunition stored separately. Except when the weapon is actually in one’s grasp, it must be rendered inoperable. There’s also a presumptive ban on ammunition.”

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In addition, “These laws effectively ban gun possession for all but a few people and the police. To date, New York’s courts have justified this by saying it’s only a privilege to bear arms, and not a right. So the licensing scheme is perfectly within the state’s authority. And any review of decisions made by licensing authorities is limited to an arbitrary-and-capricious, abuse-of-discretion analysis. In other words, you can’t have a gun, and there’s nothing you can do about it.” In essence, only those few privileged have access to firearms. That isn’t the average NY City citizen. It’s biased. It’s unconstitutional. And of course, the irony remains that criminals are still managing to get their hands on illegal firearms. So the most restrictive State in the Union, with its major city having even more restrictive standards still can’t manage to keep illegal firearms out of the hands of felons!

Source

Ok, so really, back to the NY State pistol permit process. I wanted to highlight the process in which it took me to obtain a handgun permit in New York. Mind you this is Upstate NY, not the city of New York. Many anti-firearm folk argue that not enough is done to properly vet the applicants applying for handgun permits. While this may be true in some states, it is definitely not the case in New York State. Without knowing much about the application process in other states, my brother hails from Pittsburgh, PA and obtaining a firearm is a walk in a park. Provided you pass your FBI background check you can walk out of any gun store with a premises-only firearm! As far as I know, a concealed permit is only a two week process. Pennsylvania is also an open carry state, unlike NY, which is illegal to brandish a handgun. What I would love to research is the difference in crime rates between states with an application process like PA and compare it to New York State.

So here is the outline and procedure for a handgun/pistol permit in my county (Madison). The current judge is a republican and most permits are issued unrestricted with good cause. Form #1: Instructions for filling out pistol permit paperwork. An applicant needs (4) in –county references; must not be family or in-laws and must be notarized. The form outlines the times in which the completed can be reviewed with the pistol permit staff, taking approximately an hour. Total fees will equal approximately $129.50. This fee includes the DCJS/FBI fingerprinting fee. Forms #2 & #3: The actual pistol/revolver license application. This is a duplicate form. Includes character references, arrest record questions, photograph, and reason for the license, including CCW or premises-only. Fingerprints are placed on the reverse of these forms. Form #4: NYS Office of Mental Health form. This form relinquishes all mental health medical records from; specifically outpatient information. Form #5: Authorization for Release of Information. Authorizes the Veteran’s Administration, all branches of the military (active/reserve), all law enforcement agencies, courts, city, state, and federal tax bureaus, welfare and unemployment services, credit bureaus, schools, universities, physicians, hospitals, and institutions, to furnish the county with ANY and All available information. Inquire of past and present employers regarding character, integrity, and reputation. Must be notarized. Form #6: Authorization for Release of Information from family court of the State of New York and residing county. Form #7: Affidavit of Residency. Form #8: Additional County Health Department Form. Authorization for Exchange of Confidential Information. Treatment of chemical dependency records. Form #9: Applicant questionnaire and affidavit. This form is 6 pages long. Includes questions regarding familiarity with firearm training and safe handling of a firearm, NRA hunting safety class.

Basically New York state wants to ensure you’re not a wife beater, violent felon, or mentally unstable. They do a pretty good job at this. For persons holding a valid pistol permit who experience sudden mental breakdowns, there are few things that can forewarn of that. Unfortunate but true. Now, given the extreme process New Yorkers must undergo to obtain a handgun permit, it is ironic the amount of violence in the actual City of New York. Now, bear in mind, these crimes are Not committed with handguns registered to the offenders. That is just stupid, even too stupid for criminals.
More to follow on FEMA and its power to suspend constitutional rights, Gun confiscation during Katrina, the NATO Small Arms Treaty, and the Department of Homeland Security. Stay Tuned!

Thats alot of stuff to just get a hand gun.

Did you know, you can walk down the street, open carry with a long rifle and as long as your not a felon or any other red flags come up a law enforcement officer can't confiscate your weapon. That is direct info from a LEO to me.

Of course the CCW handgun laws in my state are exactly that, they apply to hand guns, not long rifles.

What a nightmare to buy a gun. Permit? To buy one? Premise Only? There was another New York State resident some time back who had posted, although not in this much detail, what he'd had to go through in New York State to buy a gun. His information was similar and it's just shocking to me. So what happens if you move into this area with a gun as part of your household property? Or a Dozen..or two for that matter. Collections of that size are not necessarily considered large in this part of the Midwest.

The micro stamping I'll wonder about as the absurd concept it is. You didn't mention the specific details of which kind he was going for in the end but I don't suppose it matters that much. Any part of a weapon is going to be replaceable. The firing pin imprint is the most absurd of them all. I mean from the side of thinking it can't be gotten around by a criminal. Of course there are laws against that too in the proposal, and on the line goes. lol..

Here, it's the FBI background check on Rifle or Handgun, doesn't matter which, and cash/carry if the phone check passes. If not, 3 days to wait for the period of double checking or getting it anyway from a Delay result or denial of course. No ownership permit and no system to register a firearm with any authority here. After the state dropped the state side of background checking and went to the FBI check as the only one required, the system of getting the local Sheriff to sign off on a handgun permit was also dropped and the registration system fell apart entirely. Or that's how the Sheriff's Dept explained it to me when I was in for my CCW permit.

Thats an 8 hour class, $100 for the class with a shooting test at the end for basic safety and skill, then a fingerprint check at the Sheriff's Dept and we're a Shall-Issue State. So, that one does go to the state and takes a couple weeks. The CCW permit comes back and it's good.

Carry is simple.. open is by city, CCW is universal by permit except the areas you mentioned which are about the same and carry in a Vehicle is without permit. Loaded, of course. It started as Glove Compartment only but thieves became attracted to glove compartments and bad situations happened with people reaching for insurance and forgetting..so now it's open for that.

A HUGE difference a state makes. Heck..... I've bought half my guns from a classified online board here that started here in the area and sold several in my own yard sales. It's a radically different environment all around.

I have to ask what part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand? I always cringe when someone says they support the second amendment then says "however".... Sigh.

First the second Amendment does not grant the right to keep and bear arms that is an inherent right of all men and women! It only illustrates that it is a right. Anyone willing to fight for it can have that right!

No one can show me a single law rule or regulation restricting firearms in any way shape or form that prevents anyone who wants one from obtaining one and using it to maliciously harm others! Nor does it protect anyone! Just like drug laws do not work and never have neither do gun laws. PROHIBITION DOES NOT WORK AND NEVER HAS!

Turn off the damn TV and start clearing your head folks of all the damn propaganda! Gun control drug control and people control is all about CONTROL and nothing more. It's not about protecting people it never has been!

reply to post by hawkiye


Go easy.

We all know that the state of NY is the socialist utopia that it is. Imagine living their right now with all the regulations and BS.

I live in NY as well. Recently a friend of mine in Erie county went to get his permit. It took him nearly a year to recieve it. He went through all the things outlined by the OP. He and his neighbors were also interviewed by the local sheriffs in their homes, and his gun safe was also inspected.They called his workplace and questioned his boss and coworkers.

Personally I think that this is a bit over the top. I have no problem with there being a vetting process for a permit, but I think that this is excessive. A year is a long time to have to wait after they suck the money out of your pocket. If they refuse your permit they don't return your money either.

As much as people want to believe that a permitting process is some magic and pure vetting system it isnt.

It's an unnecessary measure that accomplishes nothing for the safety crowd but a lot for the anti-liberty crowd.

It is an obstacle to prevent poor people from lawfully carrying. When I lived in a permitting state it was over $300 to get into a class. Not to mention the time off work that had to be taken to sit through 8 hours of "dont put the gun in your mouth" stupidity.

I'll add some info for perspectives sake. After my $300 class to get my permit I was so appalled by the cost, time and complete lack of content I went on to become a certified instructor so I could offer real instruction at no cost to anyone who wanted it.

Within a month I was getting angry calls and letters from all the other "certified" instructors out there upset I was ruining their scam.

Anyone who thinks these classes and checks accomplish anything positive is a complete buffoon. I mean that sincerely and absolutely.

The next negative a permitting process creates is a de-facto "may issue" scenario where even in a "shall issue" state several hurdles can keep so-called undesirables from obtaining a permit.

Permitting is an extension of KKK racist gun prohibitions. Nothing more. If you support permits you support classism, racism, fear and hate.

gun laws are unconstitutional and archaic, don't work, are sensationalized at far more than they're worth.

mass shootings are over sensationalized and used by the control freaks to try and force their beliefs on everyone, nothing more nothing less. the number of people who die or are injured from crimes committed by criminals with guns is minute comparative to the population and as such shouldn't even be an issue.

GMO'S kill far more people than guns, car accidents kill far more people than guns, alcohol kills far more people than guns, we could go on and on until we find other minute things that kill more people but i digress.

far too many Americans have become mindless idiots whom only seem to have the thought process's of an amoeba.

Originally posted by hawkiye
I have to ask what part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand? I always cringe when someone says they support the second amendment then says "however".... Sigh.

First the second Amendment does not grant the right to keep and bear arms that is an inherent right of all men and women! It only illustrates that it is a right. Anyone willing to fight for it can have that right!

No one can show me a single law rule or regulation restricting firearms in any way shape or form that prevents anyone who wants one from obtaining one and using it to maliciously harm others! Nor does it protect anyone! Just like drug laws do not work and never have neither do gun laws. PROHIBITION DOES NOT WORK AND NEVER HAS!

Turn off the damn TV and start clearing your head folks of all the damn propaganda! Gun control drug control and people control is all about CONTROL and nothing more. It's not about protecting people it never has been!

edit on 9-10-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)

What part of the states re-directing and changing Constitutional amendments don't you understand? Ever live in NY? Until then, I'd probably keep my opinions of its socialist liberal policies to myself. Yes, there are tons of examples limiting and restricting firearms in many ways. Whether or not you "maliciously harm others" is your choice. The only thing I will agree with you on is that nothing in country is about protecting the people.

reply to post by Cosmic911


Actually crime is at a 60 year low.

But that is the problem with 24 hour news, people feel it is in your face all the time.

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by Cosmic911

 

Actually crime is at a 60 year low.

But that is the problem with 24 hour news, people feel it is in your face all the time.

It's what keeps the MSM maching going. How often do you ever hear of good stuff on the news? It just doesn't attrack the attention.

Shouldn't be too hard to get an idea if everyone gives the info they can.

My home state, KY is similar to PA, in that you can go in and buy a gun and walk out with it within thirty minutes as long as your background check (a 5 minute call if you have no record) is clean.

HERE (wiki) you can compare the gun crime/homicide rates of states (info from 2004).


Interesting that the percentage of homicide by gun is only about 5 percent higher in KY over NY (62.7 v.s. 57.8, but the percentage of homicides by knife is double in NY.

For a while, here in California, it was legal to open carry unloaded firearms, pistol and rifle.

But it was nearly impossible to get a CCW permit. The argument made by the judges in court against those fighting to get a CCW was that because you can ULOC (unloaded open carry) you didn't need LCC or ULCC (loaded concealed carry or unloaded concealed carry).

But then recently they banned the carry of unloaded handguns and even more recently banned the carry of unloaded long guns.

Now you cannot legally carry anywhere in any fashion. Of course this will be used in court again since the precedent was set that because you had one option you didnt need the other. Now you have no option, it's blatantly being infringed with totality.

Interesting times indeed.

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow

Interesting that the percentage of homicide by gun is only about 5 percent higher in KY over NY (62.7 v.s. 57.8, but the percentage of homicides by knife is double in NY.

That is interesting Gogo, and great work for looking that information up and comparing statistics. Isn't it interesting that the difference in homocide rate isn't that different; I suspect it isn't that much different in PA where my brother lives either. Interesting fact about homocides with knives, however, having worked in multiple level 1 trauma centers as a registered nurse, knife injuries account for more attempts by gun so that may be why the homocide rate is higher. Also, knives are just simply more easily accessible. I forgot to mention that countries like Canada and the U.K. who boast low homocides due to restrictions on on accessibility of firearms, they also have mortalities from knife wounds that far exceeds the United States. Injuries from blunt trauma, not only penetrating trauma is high as well.

Thanks for adding substantiability to the thread!

reply to post by tpsreporter


Wow. Sounds like some differing opinions of law makers in California. Law makers with little experience and/or knowledge of firearms. Always seems the case. The ones in charge know very little about what they're governing over.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


You're exactly right.

Anyone who thinks these classes and checks accomplish anything positive is a complete buffoon. I mean that sincerely and absolutely.

I equate this similarly to an HIV test...it's only as good as you're in the office. After that, all bets are off.

Originally posted by lonegurkha
I live in NY as well. Recently a friend of mine in Erie county went to get his permit. It took him nearly a year to recieve it. He went through all the things outlined by the OP. He and his neighbors were also interviewed by the local sheriffs in their homes, and his gun safe was also inspected.They called his workplace and questioned his boss and coworkers.

Personally I think that this is a bit over the top. I have no problem with there being a vetting process for a permit, but I think that this is excessive. A year is a long time to have to wait after they suck the money out of your pocket. If they refuse your permit they don't return your money either.

As a fellow New Yorker, even that sounds excessive. Wow. See that's the problem. Each county, or judge, can do whatever he or she wants to as the issuing officer.

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by Cosmic911

 

Actually crime is at a 60 year low.

But that is the problem with 24 hour news, people feel it is in your face all the time.

Yep, you are quite correct. And concealed carry permits and gun ownership in general are at an all time high.

Notice that all of the gun control laws in Chicago and NYC have not stopped gun violence one wit.