Top neurosurgeon 'spent six days in heaven' during a coma

Originally posted by RastaPuff
reply to post by DarthFazer

 

The thing is that a '___' trip lasts like 10 to 15 mins yet the person under feels like its hours, days, even weeks long. So this guys gland could have pumped out some '___' as he was coming out of the coma and he could have had an experiance that felt as long as the coma but really took place in a few mins.

Possible, however wouldn't this neurosurgeon have figured this out? Assuming this guy is not your typical religious zealot or some loon trying to cash in on a book deal or $40 DVD's. If he is educated on the effects of '___' and perception of time under it's effects wouldn't this have been discussed among his peers?

Originally posted by RastaPuff
reply to post by DarthFazer

 

The thing is that a '___' trip lasts like 10 to 15 mins yet the person under feels like its hours, days, even weeks long. So this guys gland could have pumped out some '___' as he was coming out of the coma and he could have had an experiance that felt as long as the coma but really took place in a few mins.

To make this assumption though is to believe that he had this '___' trip either the last fifteen minutes before his brain ceased all function or the 15 minutes before he came out of the ceased brain activity (coma). Could be but usually the simple answer is usually more likely.

Originally posted by delusion

Originally posted by Cuervo



So by your rationale, everybody's consciousness on ATS lives in my laptop since that's where I see them?

Sure, you can choose to think that if you like. The evidence that that is not so is more compelling though, that actual real people are communicating through a vast network via individual laptops.
But I wouldn't apply my rationale to that idea in the first place, not sure why you would? Any argument applied to where it doesn't belong can be 'proven' to be an absurdity, it's a rhetorical device, but not useful for investigation of what is true, or rather what can be SHOWN to be true, and therefore is worth believing.

Existence apart from any consciousness arising from having a body, can never be proven, because any experiential evidence must always take place through that body, and so is part of it, and can be caused by it. Or more to the point, it can never be disproven. The number of things that can never be disproved are infinite, so it seems a little irresponsible to believe in an infinity of things, just because they can never be disproven.
You make a choice to believe something, but it's not based on evidence or rational thinking, it's based on pyschological need. A rational case for believing in things that make us feel better can be made, but if you know that they're false, or possibly false, they probably lose their benefit.

Anyway, this sort of thing can really only ever be reduced to one position, rationally speaking, and that is, 'Cool story bro.'

And maybe believing the disembodied points of view you experience via ATS are produced by your laptop IS a responsible attitude, at least until further evidence is forthcoming that would prove otherwise. For most people that evidence comes earlier on in their life BEFORE they start operating a laptop and browsing forums on ATS, but if you had just come into existence now, then that would be a perfectly reasonable postion.

Wow, you are fun. Seriously, you had me second guessing a few things with that post. The difference is that people do not believe things simply because you cannot disprove them; they normally believe them because of personal experience that cannot be used to prove it to somebody else.

This means it is perfectly acceptable for people to believe in gods/goddesses, aliens, ghosts, trickle-down economics, etc. because their personal testimony is the authority on the matter and is understandably more respected by that individual than any opinion otherwise.

Regardless, loved your post and got me to think a bit on it. Stars and all that jazz for you.

reply to post by DarthFazer


This is "proof" for YOU. It's why you saw this thread, opened it, and replied. To others, it means nothing. We are all at a different place, at a different time. However, there are some of us, that notice we are all becoming one. The "proof " happens every day, in each moment. What actually happens when the circle finally closes, is under much debate. I don't chase my tail too much over it. I just keep doing what I'm here for...and have a little faith.

Here is a big what if, what if he experienced nothing. Then he felt that giving people hope in the face of certain death felt it would be better to live without fear of a certain nothingness after death. Don't worry be happy! That the truth would be a disservice. For the same reason our species feel the need to believe in a god/gods and the pearly gates await you for a reward awaits if you are a good boy or girl.

I am giving him the benefit of the doubt that he did experience "this" whatever "this" is simply due to the fact he understands how the brain works better then myself can conceive in my arm chair. The probability that he could be doing this for self gain is possible. We cant prove a metaphysical existence if we do not have the tools to measure it. But his story is still intriguing. The possibilities if this is true

reply to post by Cuervo

Shucks, and ta. To be honest, I am twisting my own brain into pretzels trying to talk about this. Any certainty is fained.
It does come down to being a question of 'to what extent should we take presumption'. The answer according to the ethics of zen is basically, none, or at least, to reduce it as much as possible. What is here is all there is, anything else is imaginary and cannot be proven. Think you're a self, an actual person? Think again. Think you have a past? Think again. But obviously this has practicality issues if taken to extremes, so as always, balance is key.
One of the best examples of taking this to extremes is the solipsist Ruler Of The Universe in Douglas Adams' Hitchiker's Guide...

MAN: Pussy pussy pussy . . . coochicoochicoochi . . . pussy want his fish? Nice piece of fish . . . pussy want it? Pussy not eat his fish, pussy get thin and waste away, I think. I imagine this is what will happen, but how can I tell? I think it's better if I don't get involved. I think fish is nice, but then I think that rain is wet so who am I to judge?

Ah, you're eating it. I like it when I see you eat the fish, because in my mind you will waste away if you don't. Fish come from far away, or so I'm told. Or so I imagine I'm told. When the men come, or when in my mind the men come in their six black shiny ships do they come in your mind too? What do you see, pussy? And when I hear their questions, all their many questions do you hear questions? Perhaps you just think they're singing songs to you. Perhaps they are singing songs to you and I just think they're asking me questions. Do you think they came today? I do.
There's mud on the floor, cigarettes and whisky on my table, fish in your plate and a memory of them in my mind. And look what else they've left me. Crosswords, dictionaries and a calculator. I think I must be right in thinking they ask me questions. To come all that way and leave all these things just for the privilege of singing songs to you would be very strange behaviour. Or so it seems to me. Who can tell, who can tell. . . . .
MAN: I think I saw another ship in the sky today. A big white one. I've never seen a big white one. Only six small black ones. Perhaps six small black ones can look like one big white one. Perhaps I would like a glass of whisky. Yes, that seems more likely. . . . . Perhaps some different people are coming to see me. . . . .
MAN: Hello?
FORD PREFECT: Er, excuse me, do you rule the Universe?
MAN: I try not to. Are you wet?
FORD: Wet! Well, doesn't it look as if we're wet?
MAN: That's how it looks to me, but how you feel about it might be a different matter. If you find warmth makes you feel dry you'd better come in. . . . .
ZAPHOD BEEBLEBROX: Er, man, like what's your name?
MAN: I don't know. Why, do you think I ought to have one? It seems odd to give a bundle of vague sensory perceptions a name.
ZARNIWOOP: Listen. We must ask you some questions.
MAN: All right. You can sing to my cat if you like.
ARTHUR DENT: Would he like that?
MAN: You'd better ask him that.
ZARNIWOOP: How long have you been ruling the Universe?
MAN: Ah, this is a question about the past is it?
ZARNIWOOP: Yes.
MAN: How can I tell that the past isn't a fiction designed to account for the discrepancy between my immediate physical sensations and my state of mind?
ZARNIWOOP: Do you answer all questions like this?
MAN: I say what it occurs to me to say when I think I hear people say things. More I cannot say. . . . .

(continued)

. . . . ZARNIWOOP: No. Listen. People come to you, yes?
MAN: I think so.
ZARNIWOOP: And they ask you to take decisions—about wars, about economies, about people, about everything going on out there in the Universe?
MAN: I only decide about my Universe. My Universe is what happens to my eyes and ears. Anything else is surmise and hearsay. For all I know, these people may not exist. You may not exist. I say what it occurs to me to say.
ZARNIWOOP: But don't you see? What you decide affects the fate of millions of people.
MAN: I don't know them, I've never met them. They only exist in words I think I hear. The men who come say to me, say, so and so wants to declare what we call a war. These are the facts, what do you think? And I say. Sometimes it's a smaller thing. . . . . . . .
MAN: But it's folly to say you know what is happening to other people. Only they know. If they exist. ZARNIWOOP: Do you think they do?
MAN: I have no opinion. How can I have?
ZARNIWOOP: I have.
MAN: So you say—or so I hear you say. . . . .
ZARNIWOOP: But don't you see that people live or die on your word?
MAN: It's nothing to do with me, I am not involved with people. The Lord knows I am not a cruel man. ZARNIWOOP: Ah! You say . . . the Lord! You believe in . . .
MAN: My cat. I call him the Lord. I am kind to him.
ZARNIWOOP: All right. How do you know he exists? How do you know he knows you to be kind, or enjoys what you think of as your kindness?
MAN: I don't. I have no idea. It merely pleases me to behave in a certain way to what appears to be a cat. What else do you do? Please I am tired. . . . .

Originally posted by texaschick
reply to post by DarthFazer

 

This is "proof" for YOU. It's why you saw this thread, opened it, and replied.

No it's not proof to me, it is an instance of evidence. Such as a persons testimony can be used as an instance of evidence. Proof usually is compiled of several instances of evidence with a physical aspect. There is nothing cut and dry about it. However the mans credentials would have more validity then say me or you were to make said claim. With that said his testimony is a instance of evidence in the ongoing study of the NDE phenomena that defies our current understanding that points toward a metaphysical existence.

I never said "this is proof to me" at all. I am merely speculating here.

To others, it means nothing.

Of course

We are all at a different place, at a different time. However, there are some of us, that notice we are all becoming one. The "proof " happens every day, in each moment. What actually happens when the circle finally closes, is under much debate. I don't chase my tail too much over it. I just keep doing what I'm here for...and have a little faith.

Some are of the hive mind however due to religious pragmatism some will never be part of the collective. Not in this idiocracy we live in today.

i guess I would be more open minded if he wasn't publishing a book for profit on this experience. However I do have a fascination about the subject and watch a show called beyond and back where people who have clinically died recount their out of body experiences. There is a definite trend..........

reply to post by DarthFazer

You know what I mean... another check on that side of the what if...NOT proof as in analytical proof. And as for the logic in the argument of psychological NEED to believe, mental illness aside, humans as a rule don't choose to make their life MORE difficult. My life would be so much easier if I didn't believe. Just like the doc. What a brain
bend for him. For him to come out with his personal story was, I assure you, not easy. It took a lot of guts to do what he has done. Watch those clips of him again talking about his sister. I don't know that I could have done it. But then again, I wasn't asked to. Cheers guys.

Originally posted by CaptainBeno


Ok?? I guess It's time to believe?

I gotta say I am quite taken back by his claims and to be honest quite scared?

Not a religious kinda guy, this has given me the creeps. Could the dudes who knock on my door be right after all, or did this guy have a sudden rush of blood to the head? Who knows, but I would have thought that he was the "word" on most things to do with the brain. And to remember it is a whole new ball game. I gotta admit, the idea of pink fluffy clouds sounds like a track I used to know by the Orb but was this tripped out chick right after all. I hope so.

au.news.yahoo.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

G'day Captain. My beautiful lady was in an horific car accident back in 1998. In a coma for weeks during which time we lost her a couple of times. I was told by an "expert" neurosurgeon that the best I could hope for was a vegetative state, never getting out of bed. Yeah right! So after 14 or so years, she is able to do almost everything she did before the accident (albeit a lot slower) Naturally there are many niggling hassles that we deal with day to day hence she is on a disability pension and I'm on a carer's pension. (no use chasing the almighty dollar, I would much rather be with my beautiful lady).

Bottom line. On talking with Julie after she came out of the coma, and being ready to accept whatever she came out with (either way) she, to this day believes that there is nothing once we kick the bucket. So I guess maybe there isn't too much to be scared about. Heck, who would want to go to the next life and sit around singing to someone to make them happy anyway? Especially when all of ya mates aren't probably going to be there.

Bottom line. On talking with Julie after she came out of the coma, and being ready to accept whatever she came out with (either way) she, to this day believes that there is nothing once we kick the bucket. So I guess maybe there isn't too much to be scared about. Heck, who would want to go to the next life and sit around singing to someone to make them happy anyway? Especially when all of ya mates aren't probably going to be there.

Thankfully if their is a afterlife most organized religions probably have it wrong

WOW!! So many replies! jeepers........it may take me a while to get back to you, sorry I'm in Aus and on a different timeline to most of you and have also been at work etc etc, but I will read them all.

Thanks guys,

Beno

My take. He's a neurosurgeon. he fell into a coma, he woke up from said coma and described somthing extrordinary to say the lest. Nerosurgeon + coma+ extrordinary story about he's been to heaven+ wrote a book about it all === A whole lot of money from book sales. Not to mention the speaking circuit and the book tour, means big dollars and all the while he's making that money, he sure is'nt putting that malpractice insurance to use.

reply to post by DarthFazer

Oh, one last thing. How do you know that I'm not a Harvard trained physician?

reply to post by CaptainBeno
I think if this incredible thing happened to me, I would transform my life in a spiritual way in service of others...I don't think i would be selling my story for a lucrative book deal because......... Wouldn't the fundamental message be that money is without value.....it is your soul and what you do each day on this earth to help others that really matters in the end? I am intensely curious about out of body experiences and never miss an episode of "beyond and back" where people tell of their first hand experiences of being clinically dead. The similarities in their accounts are chilling

reply to post by CaptainBeno


While this is an incredible story to be sure, all I can say is that this neurosurgeon is not lacking for money so why is he making the information unavailable unless you buy the book? Seems rather greedy from someone who should just make this available to all because of the message therein and the people he would want to reach. He can still sell the book but he should also make it available to all. Not everyone is priviledged like he is which leads me to think that this experience should if anything render in him the knowledge to know this.

He should feel compelled to spread that message far and wide without the thought of reaping a profit.

That in itself makes my radar flash brightly.

It's a neat story, but the fact that the first thing he saw/mentioned was fluffy clouds, kinda ruins it for me. That's the typical imagery of heaven, and I can't help but feel his sub-concious created that scenery based on those pre-conceptions.

Originally posted by texaschick
reply to post by DarthFazer

 

Oh, one last thing. How do you know that I'm not a Harvard trained physician?

Cuz you're with ATS?

reply to post by DarknStormy
Sometimes, God, in his infinite wisdom, takes advantage of an illness or situation to show someone what heaven is like. Perhaps his reasoning is to reach the hearts of nonbelievers, and to strengthen the faith of believers. I suggest everyone on this thread read "Heaven is real" by Todd Burpo. Talk about an out of body experience!
I profess to be a Christian, and this book increased my faith tremendously. Do I doubt that a neurosurgeon could have a similar experence? Not in the least. Just because they weren't identical means nothing. Who can know the mind of God?
I realize I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but that's okay. For those that do flame, consider yourselves forgiven. May God bless us all.