Oppositional defiant disorder [ODD] -- Now This Is Some Nonsense

Originally posted by tinker9917

Originally posted by mookie2112
The "New Age" people would call these Indigo Children as they show ODD behavior simply because they are "smarter" and more evolved, DNA-wise. In fact, some claims says these Indigo Children have 3 strands of DNA active.

Mook

I was quite surprised when I first read about Indigo children about a year ago, described my ADD/ODD son quite well.

And it describes my ADD/ODD son quite exactly, also! I was bowled over when I read about Indigos. My first thought was "....that explains why my son acts the way he does".

I've since changed my parenting style. I let him do everything for himself. Saves me work, but he enjoys stuff more and we argue less.


Mook

This disorder is more than expecting them to conform to the system, or to be a sheeple. It is more than just a child rebelling.

My 16 yr old son, for example,,, took his wii away for not doing his chores for a third day in a row (home all day this summer, no job, etc) and to "get even" hid my alarm clock and coffee pot.

Child in a rage, yet again, is out at 2 in the morning wandering the streets (small town though) because he WANTS mom to worry and go looking for him (which I do), is brought home by the cops (who I myself called), and is belligerent and "dares" the cops,(who are trying to help him and talk to him), to give him a curfew ticket (which I would have to pay), and laughs at me for not seeing him at 7-11.

Same kid gets sent home from school, for being disruptive and disrespectful over and over in the same day, but refuses to leave the school "because he has the right to an education" he said , Cops called and still refuses to leave, ends up in handcuffs and taken to the police station, put in a small room with me, gets disrespectful and belligerent , and "dares" the cop to follow thru with putting him in the holding cell. Guess what? Straight to the cell he went! From there he went to residential treatment after many visits to our home from the police this summer, during his violent outbursts in which I estimated at about $2300 in one month's time.

Says I am to blame for him not doing his chores because I'm home 15 minutes early from work (remember, he is 16, did not have a job (but was trying) , and was home all day because it is summer) and it's MY FAULT for being home 15 minutes early.

ODD = oppositional defiant disorder.

I do not expect my son to "conform" to the system, but I do expect him to accept reasonable consequences and be respectful to people and their property.
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ODD people have a difficult time with this, because they think/feel they are being violated when they are not.


And I love my son. There are time he looks around like "what the heck just happened"???
He can be be the sweetest, most giving child. And I know, in my heart, that things are happening that he doesn't know how to control or just simply can't.

Hey, don't be surprised! Wasn't it according to the DHS if I don't have a Facebook page then I'm suspicious? Well hell then, a little less than half of the U.S. population must be suspicious. Hell, they must be gosh darn terrorists in that case! COME AND GET ME JANET, I'M CRAZY!

Originally posted by Unrealised

Originally posted by Awen24
Yeah.
I work in Children's Services, and I've had children with this disorder. One in particular.

This isn't your ordinary run-of-the-mill "I don't like authority" type of situation, it's a child whose social dysfunction is so severe that they become their own worst enemy. The child I have in mind was 10 years old, and had become incredibly violent, to the point where he was a safety risk both to himself, and to everyone around him. He came from a stable home, with a loving family, and had no clear factors that would cause such a disorder.

The greatest issue for this child was that his ability to process and employ his own skills of inhibition was severely limited - so that controlling himself under any form of duress was a near impossibility.

In terms of diagnosis, the child doesn't just have to meet those criteria on paper. These are issues that extend far above and beyond any normal defiance. Every child has periods of defiance; that's perfectly normal, and developmentally necessary. That isn't what the disorder involves.

So while I understand where you're coming from (every man and his dog out there are being diagnosed with ADHD these days), there is a very real side to this disorder that extends far beyond a mere behavioural issue.

For a point of reference...

The child I refer to engaged in a behavioural therapy program through his school and an external agency. Over the course of a year, his behaviour changed radically. He is now one of the nicest, most well adjusted children you will ever meet.

edit on 8-10-2012 by Awen24 because: (no reason given)

This.



To all you people saying "Oh, this is just the powers-that-be trying to put down the people who question", think again.


It's a serious disorder comprised of a group of symptoms that work together to the detriment of the individual. It was serious enough to get a section in the DSM because it stands out against run-of-the-mill defiance.

Imagine not being able to control the part of your mind that regulates acceptable levels of social interactions? Well, this is one of many socially-centred disorders, and it needs to be known by the general public, because it could be mis-diagnosed as just a naughty child or a bad adult, which functions on a different level.

Well I agree with both posts here but with a bit HOWEVER: there is definitely a danger of this being diagnosed more and more easily, of the definitions that include this disorder becoming broader and broader. This is exactly what happened with ADD.

nevermind: I think my post could be too easily misunderstood...

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
I'm insulted. Apparently psychiatrists think that simply because children question authority, that they have a neurological disorder.
Source

Opositional defiant disorder (ODD) is a diagnosis described by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) as an ongoing pattern of anger guided disobedience, hostilely defiant behavior toward authority figures which goes beyond the bounds of normal childhood behavior. People may appear very stubborn and often angry. A diagnosis of ODD cannot be given if the child presents with conduct disorder (CD).[1]

So...I mean, a disorder? An actual disorder? Let's look at the symptoms.

Signs and symptomsSome signs and symptoms that must be perpetuated for longer than 6 months and must be considered beyond normal child behavior to fit the diagnosis are:[5][6]

The child must exhibit 4 out of the 8 signs and symptoms listed below in order to meet the DSM-IV-TR diagnostic threshold for oppositional defiant disorder[7]

Actively refuses to comply with majority's requests or consensus-supported rules[8]
Performs actions to deliberately annoy others[8]
Angry and resentful of others[6]
Argues often[6]
Blames others for his or her own mistakes
Has few or no friends or has lost friends
Causes constant trouble at school
Spiteful or seeks revenge
Touchy or easily annoyed
Generally, these patterns of behavior will lead to problems at school and other social venues.[6]

This is atually probably one of the most nonsensical things I've ever read. Why is that we strive to 'diagnose' every little thing? Is it possible your child is just a dick? Or he's smarter than your average bear?

Is it possible that children recognize that un-questioning faith and obedience is a bad thing to have?!

I'm at a loss for words at how idiotic this whole concept is..

Somebody please enlighten me as to nature of this 'disorder' and why we've wasted countless hours attempting to figure out what is wrong with children, when there apparently isn't anything wrong, other than they have a problem with authority.

~Tenth

edit on 10/8/2012 by tothetenthpower because: (no reason given)

Seriously, this is a thing? So basically everyone in the world has this "disorder", because, lets face it, we've all exhibited these so called symptoms. This is freaking ridiculous.

I have three sons and our family has been through quite a bit of trauma. As such, of course due to them being enrolled in public school, we now have "agencies" involved trying to normalize (so they say) the family. This involves all three of them having psych evals and subsequent diagnosies. Now this is not something I am proud of, actuallly very far from it (thank God for the annonimity of the internet lol), however because of this we now have family based therapy which involves a team of 2 wonderful ladies with degrees in therapy of some form.

Anyway, point being, my 14 year old was diagnosed with ODD and I was vehimently apposed to this diagnosis because I have been here as a constant since his birth and KNOW with every fiber of my being that this diagnosis is complete BS!! Both of our therapists agree with me 100% and just today (well yesterday now) we were dicussing the generalization that psychology/psychiatry uses when "diagnosing" disorders! She told me that the practice os analyzing the human condition is still in it's infancy and as such Big Pharm has found it's billion dollar niche! She knows I refuse to drug my children and instead will put forth whatever effort necessary to work through these issues and make sure my children are as healthy and whole as humanly possible.

So, very long story short, she let me in on a little accepted factoid within her industry; and that is that up till now, the psychiatry/psychology world has tended to catagorize and compartmentalize "symptoms" when in reality, almost everyone has SOME characteristics, traits and/or syptoms of almost EVERY "diagnosis". As such, they are begining to lean more towards a spectrum based approach (as in autism for example) and move away from the traditional compartmentalizing or boxing~in of unique individuals!! I can only see this as a positive direction, however, I remain sceptical.... must be the conspiracy theorist in me!

oh so is that the definition of being a human? we need someone to come up with a dissorder of people trying to hard to "coin" a new dissorder, that way we have a way to lock up all the idiots that try to feed us new meds and get US locked up, hah!

reply to post by tinker9917

This disorder is more than expecting them to conform to the system, or to be a sheeple. It is more than just a child rebelling. My 16 yr old son, for example,,, took his wii away for not doing his chores for a third day in a row (home all day this summer, no job, etc) and to "get even" hid my alarm clock and coffee pot.

I agree. Children need to grow up with consistent boundaries. I feel for you. Kids will test the boundaries from the start. It's natural too. As parents, it is our job to set boundaries for behavior and have clear and concise consequences for when they are breached.

Wow, smart kid lol....It just shows me he has some smarts, now you got to get him to apply them constructively. I had a different kind of relationship with my youngest than with my oldest. They were opposites. My youngest was A.D.H.D. (but I handled it old school instead of drugging him up) and if they had the tag O.D.D. back then, they would have tagged him with that too. My eldest tossed my clothes out once, he thought I tossed a shirt he owned out but I didn't, teenagers get things up their crawl sometimes and we don't know where they get it from, school perhaps because It seemed like they would come home with attitude. Just my opinion of course.

Child in a rage, yet again, is out at 2 in the morning wandering the streets (small town though) because he WANTS mom to worry and go looking for him (which I do), is brought home by the cops (who I myself called), and is belligerent and "dares" the cops,(who are trying to help him and talk to him), to give him a curfew ticket (which I would have to pay), and laughs at me for not seeing him at 7-11.

I wish I knew what to say that could help, If my son would have stayed out and got us a fine of some sort, well honestly, I don't even know what I would do. I can't imagine them doing that to us. The first thing that came to mind is military school. My youngest was the handful and even then when he was a teen about every six months something improper would come out of his mouth and by reflex I smacked it (his mouth), we were both equally shocked...he felt shame and retreated. He would always come back later and apologize. I still think those outbursts were because of school issues.

We had a rule, doors lock at 10pm. We meant it too. They knew that when we said something we meant it, because we were consistent throughout their lives so they complied. My oldest son did charity gigs on some weekends (musician) so when he had one, we gave him the leeway because he could be trusted. The younger one didn't get that privilege because we had to keep him on a short leash.

Same kid gets sent home from school, for being disruptive and disrespectful over and over in the same day, but refuses to leave the school "because he has the right to an education" he said , Cops called and still refuses to leave, ends up in handcuffs and taken to the police station, put in a small room with me, gets disrespectful and belligerent , and "dares" the cop to follow thru with putting him in the holding cell. Guess what? Straight to the cell he went! From there he went to residential treatment after many visits to our home from the police this summer, during his violent outbursts in which I estimated at about $2300 in one month's time.

From the things you are saying, it sounds like the school environment has gotten much worse. Both my boys quit school early, the school system was not a healthy environment for them. I started teaching them art and music as soon as they were able to crawl around. They both naturally were curious and loved stories (reading), singing and music. I think all kids are naturally curious and desire to learn. I think the most damage to them came from the school environment and the way the kids are treated, that's just my opinion of course.

It was like as if the school was taking their happiness away somehow but at the time, I couldn't pinpoint anything solid. But, the way the principal spoke about my youngest, I knew she was the problem because her attitude was inappropriate, she spoke to me as if I was also under her authority (not like an adult should speak to another adult). It was their decision to quit. Some may say I was a bad parent for letting them but, I think they made the right decision and they turned out to be happy and productive.

Here they are playing on that open mic website .....
Youngest is the one singing ...this is the one they tried to put on drugs....

My eldest...he was an "A" student....he quit too... he said there was no point.

It is my opinion, that the school is telling these kids that they have rights and they are being violated in the home and that is what is contributing to the discourse/behavior in many homes.

Yea agreed this label is absolutely ridiculous.

It seems there are more disorders for kids than there ever was.

My friends step son is labeled ODD and a few others. IMO he is just like any preteen who wants to go against what their parents say. I did the same things! He also seems highly bored in school and not challenged yet they just label him with all these disorders.

I saw they had him on SEROQUEL a while back and immediately told my friend to get him off of that. He was having bad side effects and nobody would listen to him. They all thought he was making it up because of these stupid disorders they labeled him with. I immediately told her he wasn't lying because I was on that medication and everything he said is true, it happened to me! I told her step son I understood how he felt and that I believed him, poor kid cried because nobody believed him and thought he was "acting out" for attention because of his ODD or any other of the labels they gave that poor kid. If anything I think these labels will only hurt him more, same goes for all kids with these labels attached to them.


ODD is just another label so big pharma can make even more money and so parents don't have to take responsibility for their parenting skills or lack there of....which seems to be a common trend here. It amazes me how doped up kids are today. I remember doctors wanting to put my brother on Ridalin cause they said he had ADD as a kid. My mom said no way, he is just a kid. My brother is not ADD and after he got into high school his "add" calmed down. Do people forget hormones can change a kids personality?! I know when mine kicked in as a female it was like the Exorcist over night...try being a teen girl! lol Hormones suck


Whatever happened to parents just taking responsibility for their kids actions instead of trying to find something wrong with their kid? It's like it is ok for their kid to act a certain way because he/she has insert label. I have seen parents justify their kids actions because of these dumb labels. Instead of the parents taking responsibility for their parenting skills they blame ODD or ADHD and so on instead of themselves for LACK OF PROPER PARENTING! IMO these labels only hurt.


Now do I think some kids have issues, yes for sure but the majority out there are just being kids and have no disorder and just being labeled for profit. Sick sick world...

reply to post by AceWombat04

He would intentionally do things, regardless of the discipline received as a result, just to defy his parents. I'm not talking about being an independent thinker or trying to stick it to the man. I'm talking about malicious, intentional, "I will do everything I can just to be contrary to what I know they want, even if it hurts me and everyone else around me," destructive (and self-destructive) behavior.

There are very serious behavior disorders and when there are factors that have not been detected as the root cause, it can be difficult and sometimes not possible to correct. Let me introduce you to Beth....she is a child who was abused very young ...we must remember the brain is still developing .....oh, notice drugs are not used in her therapy (thought to point this out).

In this little girl's case, the parents abused her in infancy. We need to educate teen girls/boys with things they can apply in real life, like child-development because we all know many will need this kind of information since they are having babies so young.

reply to post by Ravnos

One moment she is calm and serene, the next she will be screaming that she hates you, she will kick out and lash out, we can't put her in time out as she will bang her head off the wall. There is a VAST difference between children who are merely badly behaved and children with ODD. The doctor has told us that the area of the brain which is affected also causes her epileptic fits which are a physical symptom. I defy anyone to live with someone who has this condition for a week and then come back to me and say that it is merely psychological dribble. Despite everything we have had to go through with her I love my daughter to pieces, and if I have anything to do with it she will grow up to be a happy and productive member of society.

I dealt with this. My youngest did bang his head on the hardwood floors, he would beat on his older brother and many more horrific things in fact, he had self made scars on his face (when he was 3 yrs old. ) that were so deep they stayed there until he was a teen. Your child needs a neurologist.

the symptoms!
thats politicians.

Originally posted by Darkblade71
reply to post by mookie2112

 

Well whatever the reason for the reactions to injustice or perceived injustice,
it is certainly a problem for the child.

I was kicked out of every school I went to until I was sent to an alternative center where I fit in with all of the other kids. I saw and experienced what is labeled as ODD. Back then they didn't have a label for it other than emotionally disturbed.
My niece has it pretty bad,
but is learning to control it better as she gets older.
Tis a learning process.

edit on 9-10-2012 by Darkblade71 because: (no reason given)

I *think* the (possible) solution is to give these kids more and more responsibilities and duties/work. It seems funny to "work" a child and I don't mean physical labor (although that can be good on a part time basis), I mean these kids need ACTIVITES to keep their OVERACTIVE brains busy.....

My 4 yo like to get his own food and prepares it. I watch him around the hot things, but I let him. When I intervene he get all pissy. I just make sure he doesn't hurt himself.....

Mook

reply to post by OldSchoolMom


A very sad case. I agree wholeheartedly that education is absolutely essential. I hope my post didn't come across as denying the existence of such disorders. I was trying to convey precisely the opposite, while also sympathizing with those who don't like such well defined generalizations. I was giving an example of diagnosed and in my opinion undeniable ODD - whether one wishes to adhere to the term or not - in the family of a very close friend.

Peace.

reply to post by Antonio1

yep it sure is and it's been around alot longer than this thread assumes.
speaking from personal experience (does that surprise anyone who's interacted with me here ?) ODD is nothing but a "catch-all" used to directly involve children in the more intense "programming" offered by TPTB.

would it surprise any of you to learn that a majority of children diagnosed with ODD live with parents who are quite likely either psychotically challenged or delusional themselves ?
ODD behaviors are often the result of a natural response whether we choose to admit it or not.

i always found it odd that ODD made it to the books/prescription pads before dyslexia

ETA: ppl tend to forget that this is a reactive disorder meaning there must be an offensive act that triggers the reaction ... in other words ppl ... it takes two to tango.

reply to post by mblahnikluver


Star yes!

It seems there are more disorders for kids than there ever was.

It seems like it is an excuse offered and quickly accepted by parents too... I didn't realize so many parents latched onto these labels so willingly. I am used to fighting with the parents opposing these oppressive methods the system has been using against families.

ODD is just another label so big pharma can make even more money and so parents don't have to take responsibility for their parenting skills or lack there of....which seems to be a common trend here. It amazes me how doped up kids are today.

Preach it. They are creating generations like this intentionally....look at the damage being done. I see adult children, having children and letting the school do what they will to them as if they are a bystander rather than a parent. Each of these generations are the next parents. They label them, if the parents let them, they may get money from the state and let their kids be used as lab rats by turning a blind eye to the drugs they are pumping into the kid. I hate to be so blunt but, that is what is going on. Look at all the drug addicts since we started the "drug free schools" programs

Whatever happened to parents just taking responsibility for their kids actions instead of trying to find something wrong with their kid? It's like it is ok for their kid to act a certain way because he/she has insert label. I have seen parents justify their kids actions because of these dumb labels. Instead of the parents taking responsibility for their parenting skills they blame ODD or ADHD and so on instead of themselves for LACK OF PROPER PARENTING! IMO these labels only hurt.
Now do I think some kids have issues, yes for sure but the majority out there are just being kids and have no disorder and just being labeled for profit. Sick sick world...

Teach a child the way he should go, and when he is old he will old, he will not depart from it. The job starts when they are born not when they are grown. I just noticed that in this thread, they are trying to address the problem after years of damage has been done...these issues don't pop up overnight.

One question I have... why haven't women and men consulted your own parents about parenting issues? Or some older relatives. Doesn't anyone have family support systems anymore?

reply to post by AceWombat04

I hope my post didn't come across as denying the existence of such disorders.

I would argue that O.D.D. is another mechanism of control and not legit for the most part. I would assert that out of every 10,000 children labeled, I would be surprised if one could be proven to have actual brain damage that would account for it. I say it is behavioral, environmental..lack of parenting and manipulation on the part of the system.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


haha sounds like myself and everyone i know

reply to post by OldSchoolMom


Well I don't think the existence of a disorder and contributing environmental (including abuse) factors are mutually exclusive, and I don't think any psychiatrist or psychologist would argue that. I once had a conversation with a therapist about my social anxiety disorder. "Why do we have to call it a disorder? Can't it simply be that's who I am and the result of experiences I've had over the course of a life time, perhaps even in early childhood as my mind was still developing?" "Of course," was his reply, "What is a disorder, after all? It's a set of symptoms so disruptive and overwhelming that they detrimentally impact your life. There can be myriad causes. Just because it's called a disorder doesn't mean you have to be born with it, or that lots of different things don't contribute to it."

Take PTSD. That's most assuredly a disorder, but no one would argue that it doesn't arise through environmental factors and external experiences. That's the whole basis of the disorder.

But I understand where you're coming from. Peace.