Oppositional defiant disorder [ODD] -- Now This Is Some Nonsense

I'm insulted. Apparently psychiatrists think that simply because children question authority, that they have a neurological disorder.
Source

Opositional defiant disorder (ODD) is a diagnosis described by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) as an ongoing pattern of anger guided disobedience, hostilely defiant behavior toward authority figures which goes beyond the bounds of normal childhood behavior. People may appear very stubborn and often angry. A diagnosis of ODD cannot be given if the child presents with conduct disorder (CD).[1]

So...I mean, a disorder? An actual disorder? Let's look at the symptoms.

Signs and symptomsSome signs and symptoms that must be perpetuated for longer than 6 months and must be considered beyond normal child behavior to fit the diagnosis are:[5][6]

The child must exhibit 4 out of the 8 signs and symptoms listed below in order to meet the DSM-IV-TR diagnostic threshold for oppositional defiant disorder[7]

Actively refuses to comply with majority's requests or consensus-supported rules[8]
Performs actions to deliberately annoy others[8]
Angry and resentful of others[6]
Argues often[6]
Blames others for his or her own mistakes
Has few or no friends or has lost friends
Causes constant trouble at school
Spiteful or seeks revenge
Touchy or easily annoyed
Generally, these patterns of behavior will lead to problems at school and other social venues.[6]

This is atually probably one of the most nonsensical things I've ever read. Why is that we strive to 'diagnose' every little thing? Is it possible your child is just a dick? Or he's smarter than your average bear?

Is it possible that children recognize that un-questioning faith and obedience is a bad thing to have?!

I'm at a loss for words at how idiotic this whole concept is..

Somebody please enlighten me as to nature of this 'disorder' and why we've wasted countless hours attempting to figure out what is wrong with children, when there apparently isn't anything wrong, other than they have a problem with authority.

~Tenth

Thanks for posting this. I actually read about this diagnosis a couples weeks ago. My thoughts are that it will begin getting applied to adults as well. This could provide a "medical" basis to lock up dissenters.

You know, for their own safety.

Yeah.
I work in Children's Services, and I've had children with this disorder. One in particular.

This isn't your ordinary run-of-the-mill "I don't like authority" type of situation, it's a child whose social dysfunction is so severe that they become their own worst enemy. The child I have in mind was 10 years old, and had become incredibly violent, to the point where he was a safety risk both to himself, and to everyone around him. He came from a stable home, with a loving family, and had no clear factors that would cause such a disorder.

The greatest issue for this child was that his ability to process and employ his own skills of inhibition was severely limited - so that controlling himself under any form of duress was a near impossibility.

In terms of diagnosis, the child doesn't just have to meet those criteria on paper. These are issues that extend far above and beyond any normal defiance. Every child has periods of defiance; that's perfectly normal, and developmentally necessary. That isn't what the disorder involves.

So while I understand where you're coming from (every man and his dog out there are being diagnosed with ADHD these days), there is a very real side to this disorder that extends far beyond a mere behavioural issue.

For a point of reference...

The child I refer to engaged in a behavioural therapy program through his school and an external agency. Over the course of a year, his behaviour changed radically. He is now one of the nicest, most well adjusted children you will ever meet.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Isn't it obvious? If they can diagnose rebellion as a disorder in children they have another excuse to drug them up. This makes them more pliable for indoctrination. They must mold all the little children into obedient little sheeple who don't think for themselves and who would never question authority. All part of the big program.

It's scary because once you have a disorder, medications and regimens can be created to try and "cure" it. Most people I knew in school "suffered" from this one... At one point or the other.

Originally posted by boncho
It's scary because once you have a disorder, medications and regimens can be created to try and "cure" it. Most people I knew in school "suffered" from this one... At one point or the other.

I think EVERYONE suffers from some clinically-made disorder, regardless if its real, or if we think its fringe, or just another made up diagnosis.

And Yeah. What do you think the "cure" is going to be, and how much "profit", will it make?

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
I'm insulted. Apparently psychiatrists think that simply because children question authority, that they have a neurological disorder.
Source

Opositional defiant disorder (ODD) is a diagnosis described by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) as an ongoing pattern of anger guided disobedience, hostilely defiant behavior toward authority figures which goes beyond the bounds of normal childhood behavior. People may appear very stubborn and often angry. A diagnosis of ODD cannot be given if the child presents with conduct disorder (CD).[1]

So...I mean, a disorder? An actual disorder? Let's look at the symptoms.

Signs and symptomsSome signs and symptoms that must be perpetuated for longer than 6 months and must be considered beyond normal child behavior to fit the diagnosis are:[5][6]

The child must exhibit 4 out of the 8 signs and symptoms listed below in order to meet the DSM-IV-TR diagnostic threshold for oppositional defiant disorder[7]

Actively refuses to comply with majority's requests or consensus-supported rules[8]
Performs actions to deliberately annoy others[8]
Angry and resentful of others[6]
Argues often[6]
Blames others for his or her own mistakes
Has few or no friends or has lost friends
Causes constant trouble at school
Spiteful or seeks revenge
Touchy or easily annoyed
Generally, these patterns of behavior will lead to problems at school and other social venues.[6]

This is atually probably one of the most nonsensical things I've ever read. Why is that we strive to 'diagnose' every little thing? Is it possible your child is just a dick? Or he's smarter than your average bear?

Is it possible that children recognize that un-questioning faith and obedience is a bad thing to have?!

I'm at a loss for words at how idiotic this whole concept is..

Somebody please enlighten me as to nature of this 'disorder' and why we've wasted countless hours attempting to figure out what is wrong with children, when there apparently isn't anything wrong, other than they have a problem with authority.

~Tenth

edit on 10/8/2012 by tothetenthpower because: (no reason given)

I don't believe that a lot of children that have been "diagnosed" with ODD actually have the mental disorder. In a lot of cases, it's just kids being kids. I had a roommate years ago that back then was in his mid-40's and he had ODD and fit all of the symptoms you have mentioned, OP. It got so bad with his denial and blaming of me (the apartment leasee) that he had to be thrown out due to his disruptive and rebellious behavior. People with ODD feel the need to challenge authority - and it's almost compulsive for them on a very regular basis.

Originally posted by AnonymousCitizen
Thanks for posting this. I actually read about this diagnosis a couples weeks ago. My thoughts are that it will begin getting applied to adults as well. This could provide a "medical" basis to lock up dissenters.

You know, for their own safety.

edit on 10/8/12 by AnonymousCitizen because: (no reason given)

You're right and that's scary... I took a look at their definition and moved a few words around...

Actively refuses to comply with society's requests or consensus-supported norms8]
Performs actions to deliberately annoy others[8]
Angry and resentful of others[6]
Argues (Debates) often[6]
Blames others for their rightful share of blame on their end of the screw ups
Has few or no friends or has lost friends of the sort considered proper and appropriate.
Causes constant trouble Online, in the Public Square or by writing letters of complaint.
Spiteful or seeks defeat of office holders and incompetants.
Touchy or easily annoyed by proud displays of ignorance.
Generally, these patterns of behavior will lead to problems in life and other social venues.[6]

Hmmm... It didn't take changing much. Just a little tweak here or there (and a tiny pinch of humor)...but honestly, not that far outside what these times could see happen. Nope..Not too far from covering me and a rather large portion of the folks around here.

What were the criteria the Soviets used in committing dissenters to the Psychiatric detention facilities they ran within their infamous Gulag system?

The aspects of the current times that feel familiar aren't welcome ones. Not one bit.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


what the ? "Fails to comply with majority requests or consensus rules"?!?!? Sounds pretty effing stupid right there.

Just because a majority requests it, or a consensus says it is the rules doesn't make it any more or less dumb. The majority of people in this world say I will burn because I am not endoctrinated to a religion, there is supposedly a "consensus" in science that global warming is caused by Co2. Both or retarded baseless beliefss, neither is a fact.

I guess I must have this because I can't control myself under duress( I got jumped by 5 kids in highschool and didn't stop beating them until 3 needed stiches)

I can see this beeing applied to almost anyone given the correct stimuli, so it is simply another tool to be used against the nonsheeple types.

Hell let em try to lock me in a loonie bin, I bet they will love diagnosing me after I bite off fingers gouge eyes....etc. to protect my freedom of thought. And right to be an individual.

What's wrong with challenging authority ?

I must be ODD as f***

Sad really just another way to medicate and docilise those that refuse to join in, and question this cake and ass party


Hrmmm docilise......sure that's not even a word
Meh you know what I mean

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
... simply because children question authority, that they have a neurological disorder.

Not true.
And if you actually read the text you pasted...

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
an ongoing pattern ... which goes beyond the bounds of normal childhood behavior.

It is talking about extremes, not "simply because".

reply to post by tothetenthpower


I feel your frustration.

They want our kids to be in the classroom like a caged up animal. They don't want them to be KIDS, but drugged up citizens who will comply with each demand.

Our children on an individual basis learn differently and should be taught this way, however they are in a classroom with thirty plus other kids and are forced to try and learn the way the teacher teaches and this is not acceptable.

I am so sick and tired of people labeling each difference as some sort of abnormality. Its sickening to me to think we have teachers diagnosing illnesses that are not even illnesses.

If I were growing up in todays society I would be add and odd. lol Its craziness, really!

reply to post by tothetenthpower




Blames others for his or her own mistakes

Really?

I thought that was normal behavior, for a child?



This IS Nonsense. Outright.

Originally posted by Awen24
Yeah.
I work in Children's Services, and I've had children with this disorder. One in particular.

This isn't your ordinary run-of-the-mill "I don't like authority" type of situation, it's a child whose social dysfunction is so severe that they become their own worst enemy. The child I have in mind was 10 years old, and had become incredibly violent, to the point where he was a safety risk both to himself, and to everyone around him. He came from a stable home, with a loving family, and had no clear factors that would cause such a disorder.

The greatest issue for this child was that his ability to process and employ his own skills of inhibition was severely limited - so that controlling himself under any form of duress was a near impossibility.

In terms of diagnosis, the child doesn't just have to meet those criteria on paper. These are issues that extend far above and beyond any normal defiance. Every child has periods of defiance; that's perfectly normal, and developmentally necessary. That isn't what the disorder involves.

So while I understand where you're coming from (every man and his dog out there are being diagnosed with ADHD these days), there is a very real side to this disorder that extends far beyond a mere behavioural issue.

For a point of reference...

The child I refer to engaged in a behavioural therapy program through his school and an external agency. Over the course of a year, his behaviour changed radically. He is now one of the nicest, most well adjusted children you will ever meet.

edit on 8-10-2012 by Awen24 because: (no reason given)

This.



To all you people saying "Oh, this is just the powers-that-be trying to put down the people who question", think again.


It's a serious disorder comprised of a group of symptoms that work together to the detriment of the individual. It was serious enough to get a section in the DSM because it stands out against run-of-the-mill defiance.

Imagine not being able to control the part of your mind that regulates acceptable levels of social interactions? Well, this is one of many socially-centred disorders, and it needs to be known by the general public, because it could be mis-diagnosed as just a naughty child or a bad adult, which functions on a different level.

reply to post by Awen24


It seems to me that this is far greater issue that ODD attempts to put it.

It seems far more complex. ODD doesn't describe violent psychotic behavior.

My 15 year old has ALL these symptoms. Mostly cause he's a Teenager and learning to be a dick is part of growing up, so is getting over it.

He doesn't need therapy and behavioral 're-adjustment' to be a good kid, he needs me to kick his ass when he's being a fool.

Most kids need parenting, not therapy.

~Tenth

reply to post by Unrealised


Ok...

Its a real Disorder. How MANY Disorders are misdiagnosed, and over-prescribed?

We’re ashamed that exploitation of children for profit was once tolerated in America: such as children as young as five shackled to machines while working 16-hour days in factories, or black children auctioned and sold as slaves. Yet future generations will look back on our era too with shame: a time when labeling kids with fictitious mental disorders and hooking them on drugs was a multi-billion dollar business.

"For over two decades drug and psychiatric industries have bombarded schools, parents, doctors, the media and government with propaganda that ADHD is a medical condition that must be managed with drugs."

Children Exploited for Profit Using Fictitious Mental Disorders

reply to post by tothetenthpower

Somebody please enlighten me as to nature of this 'disorder' and why we've wasted countless hours attempting to figure out what is wrong with children, when there apparently isn't anything wrong, other than they have a problem with authority.

I learned about this in abnormal psychology class. A pattern must be established as you posted. In public school, the teacher must challenge any beliefs the child has learned from their parents because it may interfere with the education they will be getting...for example: God is a fairy tale, anyone who thinks otherwise is nuts. The child will conform or become a "special needs" child (not good to be labeled under any circumstance). The problem is between the differing authorities. If the child is brought up with strong family support it may cause conflict between the instructor and the child on a continual basis. The school system has the authority to label the child (defective child). People need to remember, the moment a child enters school a profile is created that includes things that may interfere with their future opportunities. Hope this helps

I also agree that this condition can also result from poor parenting don't get me wrong. But, there are many conditions that are created by various types of abuse (mind*ucks)...not all from the home alone.

I see lot of this in movie " God bless America "

I don´t buy this is some sort of disorder, i believe this is the result of non caring parenting.
I see this same "disorder" in one boy who is in same class as my son, he is very violent, has a bad "mouth" yealling and calling names. Once this child (8 years old ) was chatting with mine in our front yeard i asked my son to come inside so we can change insulin to his pump, this guy went totally nuts calling me and my son fags etc. Even in their classroom, teacher has had to isolate him from other students when others are working in a groups this one is sitting alone.
I wonder if his parents would be home more, and show some caring, maybe this kid would behave better. At the moment i am in a point that i might need to advice my kid not to be around this kid. This kids parents are both Doctors but they are never "there".

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by Awen24

 

It seems to me that this is far greater issue that ODD attempts to put it.

It seems far more complex. ODD doesn't describe violent psychotic behavior.

My 15 year old has ALL these symptoms. Mostly cause he's a Teenager and learning to be a dick is part of growing up, so is getting over it.

He doesn't need therapy and behavioral 're-adjustment' to be a good kid, he needs me to kick his ass when he's being a fool.

Most kids need parenting, not therapy.

~Tenth

This is my point though.
What you've described is the norm, not the exception. ODD is a diagnosis for the exception... where the oppositional defiance, the "learning to be a dick", as you put it, is MORE than just "part of growing up".

Significantly, this disorder is most often in younger children rather than mid to late teens. The vast majority of diagnoses are in children under 12... where oppositional and defiant behaviour is much *less* of a characteristic of developmental stages than it is in teens.

So what you're looking at here isn't a pattern of normal defiance, pushing boundaries, learning where you fit in the world and in the scheme of things - it's much more than that.

The "violent psychotic behaviour" mentioned by another poster above is not uncommon in children with ODD. In many ways it's a logical extension of the fundamental issue - when you can't resolve the problems that you're opposing, where/what do you turn to? These children lack the social and behavioural impetus to resolve problems without violence - often through no fault of their own, or of their parents.

This isn't a parenting issue.

To refer again to the case I mentioned above: the case in point, this family has three children. The child with ODD was the youngest of the three. The first two were well adjusted, polite, well mannered, and, despite what some people in the thread seem to think, more than capable of thinking for themselves. Dad was a police officer (a detective), mum a lawyer, and both had sacrificed elements of their work lives in order to spend time with their children as they were growing up.

All in all, this was a model family.

This disorder, and the subsequent diagnosis, is NOT for children who "don't fit in". It's NOT for children who "push the boundaries". It's NOT for children who "don't buy in to the status quo" or "think outside the box". It's for children who, despite their understanding of the norms, rules and boundaries of society, of relationships, of normal human interaction, are physically and psychologically incapable of acting within even their OWN expectations... hence the fact that it is diagnosed as a disorder. The opposition isn't just against authority; it's against themselves... against their own will and better judgement... otherwise, some have said, they wouldn't need help - just a 'kick in the butt'.

Maybe this disorder is just another way to pharmaceutical companys to get their drugs to market. After all pharmaceutical companys are those who pay the researches.