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Israel and Palestine?

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posted on Apr, 29 2003 @ 08:42 PM
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Damn I don't understand this whole Palestine v.s. Israel stuff, I mean, when I look on the map, I don't see Palestine anywhere, and when I look at a map of Israel, and then look at a map of Palestine, it's the same damn thing. So can someone tell me what the hell is going on? lol. I'm very uninformed on this topic, so thanks for helping me out,




posted on Apr, 29 2003 @ 08:50 PM
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Lord!! People have written disertations on this subject, you can't except someone to be able to sum this up on a message board. Do a bit of research... start with the bible... move forward. Modern times however, start in 1948 with the creation of the Israeli state (you coul move back to the British colonization of the ME after WWI. From there you can go forward and begin to understand. The topic can't be laayed out easily so I suggest that you dig in the library a bit if you really want to learn about this subject.



posted on Apr, 29 2003 @ 08:53 PM
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I just don't get it when the map of Palestine is the same as the map of Israel, I know that they're fighting over holy land and stuff, but just the map things confuse me.



posted on Apr, 29 2003 @ 09:00 PM
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Boy have you opened a can of worms!

The easiest answer is just to blame it on the British, they started the whole mess....

OK here is my interprtation, Estragon might be better at this so feel free to jump in and correct me.

in the 1800's the land known as Israel was part of the Ottoman empire.

When the first world war came, the british attacked through egypt up to Turkey and promised the arabs living in israel that if they helped them fight off the turks who were there then they could have it as their country, they did help the british and so in the 1920's palestine was born.

Around that time the Zionist movement started growing strength (it actually started in the later 1880's I think)among the Jews in Europe, and they started trickling into palestine and living there speaking the once dead language of Hebrew.

Basically they were sick of being picked on in Europe and wanted to go home to their ancestoral homeland, a valid hope that every year they asked for "Next year in Jerusalem" in the Passover festival.

Then WW2 happened, 3 million (?) Jews were killed and many fled Europe. After WW2 the British felt sorry for the Jews and gave them Palestine. The arabs were understandably upset and the British partitioned the country into bits some for the Jews and some for the Arabs (Telaviv and Jaffa as good examples of this).

The british were not fair in this however, by putting the jews into concentration camps in cyprus when they tried to go to Palestine (which was rough considering what they had been through) and allowing the arabs to arm themselves but not the jews.

Round about 1948 (?) the british said " Righto mates, we are popping off home you blighters had better look after yourself, we are sick of being policemen" (typical british response to international affairs see India for example) So they left, and the Jews and the Arabs fought it out for supremacy.

Despite the superiority of the Arabs the Jews were able to win, and ever since then have ben fighting the arab nations around them for the right to stay in their ancesteral homeland. The Israeli success is often because of Arab incompetance such as the 1973 (?) war when egypt sent 90,000 troops north with no maps and only one kitchen!

So on the same bit of land the Arabs call it Palestine ("Palastinains" are not a racial or tribal group just the name of the arabs who were living there at the time) and the Jews call it Israel.

Part of the british partition is still there with the Arab areas and the Jewish areas.








[Edited on 30-4-2003 by Netchicken]



posted on Apr, 29 2003 @ 09:07 PM
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It was 6 million Jews who died in Europe.



posted on Apr, 29 2003 @ 09:42 PM
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History-shimistory...down to business: a palestinian state. The past is over and done but these folk will keep dwelling on it unless we get a president with some real ballz that forces the Jewish lobby, the Palestinian terrorist networks, Sharon and Arafat to stop the madness and make a deal regardless of what God told what prophet that the land belonged to some people thousands upon thousands of years ago. everyone is to blame but no one wants to change. (dang, i sound like jesse)

oh and I think Bush has the ballz. He just doesn't care to use them until he has something to gain from it.

[Edited on 30-4-2003 by Saphronia]



posted on Apr, 29 2003 @ 10:11 PM
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You're wrong NetChicken.

The promise the Brittish made to the Arabs that they could have that land as theirs, was made to just that, the Arabs. Saudi Arabia Iraq those regions. And yes, the Brittish held those under a protectorate too and that DID cause problems.

But Palestine, as far as I know was never a part of that agreement, though I wouldn't mind seeing any documentation have you any.



posted on Apr, 30 2003 @ 03:16 AM
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Hmmm, I think I am right in that the British gave Palestine to the "arabs" and the local arabs at that.

I don't have the books with me any more but look at the situation of the time. The british were talking to the arabs in control of the region so they could get help as they moved in on Turkey.

I think in an historical situation like this that there will be varying histories and the truth will be depending on your point of view.

But fundamentally we can say that the British screwed up



posted on Apr, 30 2003 @ 03:27 AM
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Worthwhile saying is that more than 800 000 Palestinians have been driven from their homeland by the jews. That's where the problem comes from today.



[Edited on 30-4-2003 by Maxwell Smart]



posted on Apr, 30 2003 @ 03:29 AM
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I believe I've worn my fingers down several millimeters on the keyboard on this very topic. It can be found in various places here, in the political scandal, war on terror and religion forums.

The question is where is Palestine, and who are "Palestinians". You'll find contradictions in this. Early on, the Jews of the area were called Palestinians and the Arabs got a bit testy when referred to as that. The Romans tried to erase the memory of Israel by renaming the land (Hitler wasn't the first to want to erase the Jewish blood or inheritance).

All that aside, Saph has stated a very plain and clear point. These people have been the pawns of the Arabs against the Jews long enough. A shallow dive into history will make it clear tha tthe "Palestinians" have been put in their position by the same ones that refuse them citizenship in their countries, deny them access except with work visas for menial jobs and do not offer one inch of their own vast acreage for the establishment of a Palestinian nation for their "brothers". All of the responsibility is cast upon the tiny little nation of Israel, the one nation in the area that received the least from the British and even that got whittled down to even less.



posted on Apr, 30 2003 @ 03:36 AM
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Maxwell Smart where do you get that crap?

The number of Jews killed has always been 6million and it still is, except for the few nazi sites or some other anti-semetic site where you'll find such retarded numbers as 2million or 200.



posted on Apr, 30 2003 @ 03:49 AM
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800,000? Driven from there "homeland"?

It is worthwile to point out that the Palestinian would have been fine, living happily as a citizen in a democratic society had they not listened to their Arab "brothers" when they were told to leave their Israeli homes and side with those who wanted to destroy the Israeli nation in its infant state.

Learn from fools, pay a fool's price. In this case, the teachers are still using the student as a tool.



posted on Apr, 30 2003 @ 08:12 AM
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Here's a link to a good article I posted a while back about the carve up of the Middle East in 1922.

"It was late November 1922 and the map of the Middle East was about to be redrawn by a middle-aged British colonial servant who was determined to put an end to the impasse"

www.sundayherald.com...

[Edited on 30-4-2003 by kegs]



posted on Apr, 30 2003 @ 10:37 AM
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Isreal is content to set aside certain land for a Palestinian state, but not any portion of Jerusalem.

The "Palestinians" aren't happy with the land designated for this...and seem content only with ALL of Jerusalem...and likely Isreal itself.

Because these two positions are fixed, and diametrically opposed to each other, there will never be peace here.

Then you have the age old religious arguement...that Isreal is promised to the sons of Abraham... Well, Isaac was the son by his "legitimate" wife...(and then father to the Jews), whereas Ishmael is the son by another wife (the firstborn son, and father to the Arabs)... So until God comes down and says, "Look you idiots, this is what I meant..." it's an un-winnable arguement...



posted on Apr, 30 2003 @ 10:59 AM
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I think the city of Jerusalem is cursed to live in terror until the end of time. The name Jerusalem means "City of Peace". But in it's 5,000 sum odd years of history it has never seen peace.

Why in the times of Jesus the same exact thing was going on then that is going on now? Ask your self that question before you go putting blame on the Jews or the Arabs.

I'm sorry to say it but I think the only time when this city sees peace is when that one country decided to say fu*k it start a Nuclear War.


dom

posted on Apr, 30 2003 @ 11:17 AM
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I'm not sure it's as hopeless as that Gazrok. The majority of Palestinians would be happy with the Israeli army being out of their cities. East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza would be enough.

But it's always represented as the Palestinians "not being happy with anything", when really they're just not very happy about the Israeli settlements littered all over their land... and that I can understand.

However, if the Western media sticks to the problem being Palestinian intransigence, then it makes Israel's no-negotiation policy that much more acceptable... or at least that seems to have been one of the main Israeli justifications.



posted on Apr, 30 2003 @ 11:48 AM
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"The majority of Palestinians would be happy with the Israeli army being out of their cities"

It isn't the majority that straps bombs to itself and blows up women and children in cafe's though....
This is the reason the army is in their cities...

I'm pretty much convinced that there will never be peace there.... I'm not happy about it...but it is my belief.


dom

posted on Apr, 30 2003 @ 11:56 AM
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But the majority of the Palestinian population do support suicide bombings right now, that's a harsh reality. If you can at least make the majority of Palestinians happy then the militants support base will fade away. But it does take time, and political will.

Over here we've had the "Real IRA" continuing to bomb mainland Britian, but it's been sidelined, because their whole aim is to stop the peace process. I think a similar approach would need to be taken with Palestinian militants.

Peace *can* happen. But only if the political will exists to force a resolution of the conflict, and to pull the Palestinians out of the poverty they are forced to live in. I'm afraid to say that the political will probably needs to come from the US.



posted on Apr, 30 2003 @ 12:12 PM
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if they'd devote their resources to building schools instead of bombs, and teaching their kids how to read and write, instead of throwing grenades...they wouldn't be so poor?

Well, I'm all for us attempting to initiate peace there...unfortunately, I think the reality is it's not going to happen. That's no excuse not to try though...so all we can do is hope for the best...and that we at least we do all we can do, to effect it...



posted on Apr, 30 2003 @ 12:17 PM
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Originally posted by Gazrok
if they'd devote their resources to building schools instead of bombs, and teaching their kids how to read and write, instead of throwing grenades...they wouldn't be so poor?


The poverty dosen't come from that !?!? They have things like curfews and Tanks rolling around in the streets. How the hell is a kid supposed to learn in that type of enviorment. Plus where they saty is like a reservation ghetto. No Jobs no hope




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