Born again... and again?

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Akragon

 

By the way, what does this have to do with the previous scripture I posted from John 10:7-15?

Can you help me to understand how what you've said ties into that?

Yes...

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them

.......

He is the shepard... The truth, the life and the way.... Others before him presented truth... but he gave us the perfect truth from God directly....


9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.


He shall be saved, and go in and out.... Of heaven perhaps?

To help those in need as i just stated in my previous post?



10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.



The thief, is the physical pleasures of this world... that which turns us from the love of God, even our own selfishness... Jesus gave us the example as the shepard, he taught selflessness... Which is love

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.


Those that do not understand God's son will fall on the rocks like the waves of the sea...

Deep eh

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep

Even after death... his "sheep" hear his words...

IF reincarnation happens to said person... they will still find the words of Jesus eventually within his life time...

Wh]at Spirit are you talking about?

Sounds like some research is in order regarding the Millennium.

Still confused..

This sounds like a book from recent times...

I don't read material from anything within the past 1500 years or so

reply to post by Akragon


I can see what you're saying now, but I still don't understand how me posting those exact same scriptures are considered blasphemy.

reply to post by Akragon

I don't read material from anything within the past 1500 years or so

Although the word "Millennium" is only used in Revelation, it is also referred to in Zechariah and Ezekiel. There may be other books, but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

reply to post by Deetermined


hahaha... its not...

I just used that as an example to insert my thread on the subject... And to offer the verse which says "there is a world to come"

Why do you believe im out to insult you?

I already said im not Christian...

Sorry thats was in bad taste... funny though!

reply to post by Deetermined


I can't seem to find anything in the bible that mentions he went to Sheol, could you list the verse that specifically states he went to Sheol? I thought Sheol was only in the OT?

Sheol was translated into hell in English versions of the bible. If Jesus went Sheol then he went to hell because they are the same things. How could he have gone to hell if no one is sent their until the day (singular) of judgement?

Ever thought that Sheol is actually Earth?

reply to post by Akragon

hahaha... its not...

I just used that as an example to insert my thread on the subject... And to offer the verse which says "there is a world to come"

You crack me up!

I have to admit, you had me totally confused as to what you were talking about!

Yes, I already know that you don't consider yourself a Christian. I find it amusing that you spend so much time using scripture to back up your theories, yet you try to debunk most of it all at the same time.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Depending on the version of the Bible you're reading, it might be translated into "the bowels of the earth".

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Akragon

 

hahaha... its not...

I just used that as an example to insert my thread on the subject... And to offer the verse which says "there is a world to come"

You crack me up!

I have to admit, you had me totally confused as to what you were talking about!

Yes, I already know that you don't consider yourself a Christian. I find it amusing that you spend so much time using scripture to back up your theories, yet you try to debunk most of it all at the same time.

Heres a secret...

You will never find me trying to debunk Jesus... I've tried... its not possible...

His words win most of my so called "arguements" not i...

Shhhhh....

Don't tell anyone!

reply to post by Deetermined


So Sheol/hell is located somewhere on Earth? Hey, that's exactly what I believe!

People are blown up by missiles and shot to death everyday in the middle east, food is grown unnaturally with chemicals that slowly poison us and kill off whole populations of bees, corporations continually screw everyone else over for their own benefit, fake wars are fought in order to make a profit, we pollute the oceans with oil spills, etc., etc., etc....

Earth is the closest thing to hell you'll ever find and religion and the lies it tells only prolong this hell because it teaches that there is something better after this life, so why care about this one? Why care about the destruction of Earth when their is everlasting bliss after this life? As long as you believe the lie, you'll be okay.

Religion is the comfort food for those who are too lazy to search for the truth themselves, they let someone else find it for them.

I'll leave you something to think about:

Matthew 11:30
For my yoke is easy and my burden light.

2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

What Peter says about Paul's teachings directly contradict what Jesus said. Jesus said what he taught was easy and light, not hard to understand. How would you explain this?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Paul did not know Jesus...

Pretty simple explaination...

Pauls words are complicated and erratic...

What is written about Jesus is Graceful, and eloquent... and the message is simple...

reply to post by Akragon


I agree, that's why I think he's lying. If he didn't know Jesus then how could he speak for him?

My personal opinion is that Saul/Paul and Simon/Peter are the same person. After Jesus called him Satan and died Peter went to Rome either by force or on his own and turned into Paul, he then changed the story from love to blind faith.

I don't have proof but it makes sense to me personally.

Also, Paul's parents are never named in the bible. Coincidence? I don't think so. Peter is also thought to have been crucified upside down while in Rome, that points to him being the antichrist and what Paul taught was antichrist-like. Another coincidence? I don't think so.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Akragon

 

I agree, that's why I think he's lying. If he didn't know Jesus then how could he speak for him?

My personal opinion is that Saul/Paul and Simon/Peter are the same person. After Jesus called him Satan and died Peter went to Rome either by force or on his own and turned into Paul, he then changed the story from love to blind faith.

I don't have proof but it makes sense to me personally.

Also, Paul's parents are never named in the bible. Coincidence? I don't think so. Peter is also thought to have been crucified upside down while in Rome, that points to him being the antichrist and what Paul taught was antichrist-like. Another coincidence? I don't think so.

edit on 8-10-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

Well he is the main doctine of much of christianity... and i can't say that is all bad...

I believe he had an agenda that wasn't the same as Jesus... promoting his own values and ideals...

Pauls views on love were spectaticular... so he couldn't be all bad, though i could be wrong...

I don't know how he was in his actual life, i only know i don't like most of what he wrote...

He wasn't Jesus... and he didn't teach what Jesus taught...

Thats really all that matters to me

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

What Peter says about Paul's teachings directly contradict what Jesus said. Jesus said what he taught was easy and light, not hard to understand. How would you explain this?

You know, I keep reading this, but I don't understand what you're talking about.

Other than keeping God's Commandments over Mosaic Laws, what was it that Paul taught that was different from what Jesus said?

Let's look at what Jesus said...

John 12:47-50

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

So, God's commandment is life everlasting. Didn't I already post John 10:17-25 showing what Jesus said he was going to do to make that happen? Give his live for the sheep so that they might be saved?

What else did Jesus say?

Matthew 17:22-23

22 And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men:

23 And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.

All of the above is repeated again in Matthew 20:17-19, Mark 9:30-32, Mark 10:32-34, Luke 9:44-45, and Luke 18:31-33. So, what is there not to believe?

Still further, what did Jesus say?

Matthew 4:17

17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Luke 5:32

32 I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luke 24:47

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Mark 1:15

15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

So, in conclusion, Jesus said he was the shepherd of the sheep that was going to die for his sheep so that they might be saved, he was going to raise from the dead three days later to prove to them that there was truly life after death, to repent and to sin no more (as much as humanly possible anyway), to love thy neighbor as thyself, and to believe in all of the words that he spoke.

So, tell me, how was Paul's teachings different?

Tell me again, what makes it so difficult to believe all of these things in order to accept Christ fully?

Is it really a burden to believe all of these things?

What is it that people find so hard and difficult?

Help me to understand where you're coming from.

reply to post by Akragon

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Go in one side of the door, and out the other and find pasture, he is not talking about reincarnation. Once you step through that door its a done deal. It's about going forward not backward. If you reincarnate you go backward into the world of sin, and that has never been what God is about.

Luke 9:62

62 But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

Jeremiah 7:21-24

21 Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: “Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices and eat meat. 22 For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. 23 But this is what I commanded them, saying, ‘Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.’ 24 Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and the dictates of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.

No such thing as reincarnation.

Hebrews 9:23-28

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Genesis 3:19

19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”

Nowhere did God tell Adam he gets chance after to chance until the end of time. He returned to the dust of the ground, end of his story.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

What Peter says about Paul's teachings directly contradict what Jesus said. Jesus said what he taught was easy and light, not hard to understand. How would you explain this?

Who is the living Word? The Torah made flesh? Jesus is that's who. Paul was a pharisee, and pharisees had a thing for erecting fencelaws around the Torah to prevent anyone getting near to breaking the law. Pharisees were experts in the law, but many of them would lay heavy burdens on jews to follow but not follow their own advice, they didn't practice what they preached. Paul knew the Torah very well, to say he didn't know Jesus is completely false, he knew him better than you or anyone else alive today.

If Paul did anything, it was erecting fencelaws as all pharisees were want to do and let's see what Jesus has to say about the pharisees and what they taught pre-crucifiction.

Matthew 23:1-3

1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

Ofcourse Paul, didn't say and not do himself, he practiced what he preached, therefore his word is true.

reply to post by Akragon

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. He shall be saved, and go in and out....

Of heaven perhaps?

I'm pretty sure this is talking about the time of the Millennium (here on earth) when Jesus will reign from Jerusalem for 1,000 years to bring his sheep rest before Satan is released from the Abyss and before God sends down the New Jerusalem after throwing Satan into the lake of fire.

Zechariah 8:3-6

3 Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain.

4 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age.

5 And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof.

6 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the Lord of hosts.

The fact that there are old men and old women walking around with "staffs" in their hands says that this is not the New Jerusalem, but the period of the Millennium that will be right here on earth beforehand.

This is the period where Jesus will lead his people "in and out" to protect them and give them rest.

Zechariah 8:7-8

7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;

8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

Zechariah 8:10

10 For before these days there was no hire for man, nor any hire for beast; neither was there any peace to him that went out or came in because of the affliction: for I set all men every one against his neighbour.

Zechariah 8:20-22

20 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:

21 And the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, Let us go speedily to pray before the Lord, and to seek the Lord of hosts: I will go also.

22 Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord.

Just like Moses asked for and the Lord promised...

Numbers 27:15-17

15 And Moses spake unto the Lord, saying,

16 Let the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,

17 Which may go out before them, and which may go in before them, and which may lead them out, and which may bring them in; that the congregation of the Lord be not as sheep which have no shepherd.

reply to post by Deetermined


What I mean is that Jesus said his yoke was easy, meaning what he was teaching was easy to understand. If what he was teaching was easy to understand then why were Paul's teachings on Jesus hard to understand?

In other words, why would Jesus tell us his teachings were easy and his burden light only for Paul to come along and convolute it and make it hard to understand? That would point to Paul's teachings being wrong according to Jesus.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


We are ALL the living word, not just Jesus.

reply to post by Akragon


Reincarnation
Okay, I was just reviewing some websites and info regarding the topic of reincarnation.

Perhaps some are unaware that it was nearly universally held as truth for CENTURIES before Jesus arrived on the scene (in his Biblical version). The concept was taught by numerous faiths, the Greek philosophers, and many early Christian sects. It was the Roman Catholic Church that denounced the belief as heresy.

And we all know how noble and pure the Roman Catholic Church is. Right?

So, all the world believed in it; everywhere, just as the pyramids appear over all the world.

We still have the pyramids. Jesus's life did not erase the fact that we have pyramids.

If one looks closely at Jesus' reported teachings, there is NO REASON to believe he did NOT believe in reincarnation; EDIT: MANY, MANY PEOPLE did at the time. So, he's speaking of it "water and spirit", "born again", why does it have to be manipulated to be something else?

ONLY BECAUSE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH CALLED IT HERESY. So, millennia of human thought, philosophy, knowledge, experience, and study was wiped out. By ONE claim of the Catholic Church.

Here is section of the wiki page contents listing civilizations that believed in reincarnation BEFORE Jesus' lifetime (as it is known in the Bible, not his previous incarnations).

2 History
2.1 Origins (outside Africa)
2.2 Early Jainism, Hinduism and Buddhism
2.3 Early Greece
2.4 Classical Antiquity
2.5 The Celts
2.6 Judaism
2.7 Taoism

Here's the bit on origins (outside Africa):

The origins of the notion of reincarnation are obscure. They apparently date to the Iron Age (around 1200 BCE). Discussion of the subject appears in the philosophical traditions of India and Greece from about the 6th century BCE. Also during the Iron Age, the Greek Pre-Socratics discussed reincarnation, and the Celtic Druids are also reported to have taught a doctrine of reincarnation.[16]

The ideas associated with reincarnation may have arisen independently in different regions, or they might have spread as a result of cultural contact. Proponents of cultural transmission have looked for links between Iron Age Celtic, Greek and Vedic philosophy and religion,[17] some[who?] even suggesting that belief in reincarnation was present in Proto-Indo-European religion.[dubious – discuss][18] In ancient European, Iranian and Indian agricultural cultures, the life cycles of birth, death, and rebirth were recoginized as a replica of natural agricultural cycles.[19]

And on what was going on around his recorded lifetime:

In Greco-Roman thought, the concept of metempsychosis disappeared with the rise of Early Christianity, reincarnation being incompatible with the Christian core doctrine of salvation of the faithful after death. It has been suggested that some of the early Church Fathers, especially Origen still entertained a belief in the possibility of reincarnation, but evidence is tenuous, and the writings of Origen as they have come down to us speak explicitly against it.[43]

Some early Christian Gnostic sects professed reincarnation. The Sethians and followers of Valentinus believed in it.[44] The followers of Bardaisan of Mesopotamia, a sect of the 2nd century deemed heretical by the Catholic Church, drew upon Chaldean astrology, to which Bardaisan's son Harmonius, educated in Athens, added Greek ideas including a sort of metempsychosis. Another such teacher was Basilides (132–? CE/AD), known to us through the criticisms of Irenaeus and the work of Clement of Alexandria.

Can someone show me where it's stated that JESUS HIMSELF did NOT believe in it?

near-death.com...

From time to time in Jewish history, there was an insistent belief that their prophets were reborn. Evidence of this can be found in the Hebrew scriptures, the Dead Sea Scrolls, early Christian and Jewish Gnostic writings, the New Testament, and the writings of ancient historians.

At the time of Jesus, there were many competing ideas concerning death and what happens afterward. Greek and Neo-Platonic concepts of reincarnation, Persian resurrection, ancient Hebrew ideas of She'ol, beliefs in no afterlife at all, and religions and philosophies from other sources, all existed among the Jews in those days.

Okay, this source says there were lots of different beliefs, since Israel was a major crossroads for trade the Jews were exposed to lots of different ideas.

The origin of resurrection in Jewish and Christian doctrine began with the Babylonian exile, a period when the Jews in Israel were conquered and taken captive to Babylon. Later, in 539 B.C., Babylon itself was conquered by the Persians who installed a Zoroastrian theocracy throughout the defeated Babylonian empire. It was then that the Zoroastrian religion and its doctrine of resurrection began exerting a tremendous influence on Judaism. Christianity, in turn, inherited the concept of resurrection from Judaism. In fact, it was the Zoroastrian religion that was the source of resurrection, the belief in angels (including that of Satan), the afterlife, rewards and punishments, the soul's immortality, and the Last Judgment.

One more snippet:

Because Israel was located at a strategic crossroad where several continents come together, Jews in those days were exposed to many religions and philosophies. Some Jews were Gnostics of the Platonic tradition and were believers in "transmigration," a form of reincarnation held by the Greeks.

Other Jews held to the Persian concept of resurrection. Jewish ideas included the concept that people could live again without knowing exactly the manners by which this could happen. Today, believers in traditional Judaism firmly believed that death was not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion.

Today, it is possible, for example, for an Orthodox Jew to believe the "resurrection" refers to a time when souls of the righteous dead go to a place similar to the Christian heaven. It is also possible for an Orthodox Jew today to believe the "resurrection" refers to the reincarnation of a soul through many lifetimes.

It is also possible for a Christian to believe the "resurrection" refers to the REINCARNATION of a soul.

So....who's to say whether Jesus did or did not believe in it?
I say let his words speak for themselves.
YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN,
YOU ARE ALL GODS,
WATER (amniotic fluid) and SPIRIT,
and he was also suspected of being a reincarnation of Adam himself AT THE TIME!!

Hmmm?
Why make it so esoteric and convoluted and spend so much time denying it simply means what he meant it as?
It seems to be quite energy-consuming, and not very logical. The idea of reincarnation preceded Christianity, and has survived its burdensome dogma.

In my mind, those are reasons enough to accept reincarnation. I believe Jesus believed (knew) it, too, and that's what his "mysterious" statements meant. Just as simple as that.