Help ATS with a contribution via PayPal:
learn more

Pope's ex-butler gets 18 months in prison for leaking confidential papers

page: 2
9
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join

posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 07:38 PM
link   

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
1) he would not be involved in any shady dealings

What shady dealings was he involved in?


2) if he were a Christian he would forgive this man and let him go free.

He can forgive him, but first the butler needs to make a formal request. As far as I have seen he hasn't done that after being sentenced.


The Pope is Evil, and I challenge anyone to prove me otherwise. Can't be done.

Because you have it backwards, the ones making the claim (in this case, the Pope is Evil) are the ones that must prove that what they say is true, it's not the other people that have to prove them wrong.




posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 08:17 PM
link   

Originally posted by ArMaP

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
1) he would not be involved in any shady dealings

What shady dealings was he involved in?


2) if he were a Christian he would forgive this man and let him go free.

He can forgive him, but first the butler needs to make a formal request. As far as I have seen he hasn't done that after being sentenced.


The Pope is Evil, and I challenge anyone to prove me otherwise. Can't be done.

Because you have it backwards, the ones making the claim (in this case, the Pope is Evil) are the ones that must prove that what they say is true, it's not the other people that have to prove them wrong.


I didn't read the book but apparently " the leaked papers revealed claims of corruption within the Roman Catholic Church hierarchy." Instead of being "furious' about it, The Pope should have given this guy a metal. His attitude shows he has to be involved somehow. As well as the courts scaling back his 3 year sentence after seeing those documents - They have to have seen something that implicates the pope or other high ranking clergy. At lease the pope had to have known these things were taking place in the Vatican.

Jesus tells his followers not to have ANY appearance of evil, wrongdoings, shady deals etc in thier lives. That they are to be pure. If the Pope knew of these things and didn't stop them and his attitude toward this guy, tells me the pope was in the wrong and Not following Christ. So much Un-Christian like attitudes from the Pope even in the above news link, there is no way he's a real follower of Christ. Jesus said, if your not with me, you are against me, meaning they are with Satan, so be it for the Pope. The shoe fits.

The guy has to formally request forgiveness from this MAN (the pope) . Are you kidding me? I don't know what book your reading but that's not in my bible.. even in my catholic bible. No, Jesus admonished his disciples to openly forgive all who do them wrong. Jesus didn't say " Only forgive those who ask of you". Are you saying now that the Pope is above Jesus?

Your third counter is a well known tactic used often in science when people do not want to face the responsibility of answering the charge. That's pretty phoney and see through. Why play games, just answer the charge. You wont, cant so you childishly throw it back on the person. Well, I answered the charge, so now, it's your turn. Prove to me that for these things the pope is not evil. Do it by the catholic bible if you like,( the sole authority of the church) but you cant.
edit on 27-10-2012 by JohnPhoenix because: sp



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 08:21 PM
link   
So much for the catholic churches vaunted forgiveness. Oh we will forgive you unless you embarass us then you pay ese.



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 09:16 PM
link   
So what are the specifics of the corruption?



posted on Oct, 28 2012 @ 07:31 AM
link   

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
I didn't read the book but apparently " the leaked papers revealed claims of corruption within the Roman Catholic Church hierarchy." Instead of being "furious' about it, The Pope should have given this guy a metal. His attitude shows he has to be involved somehow.

I see it as perfectly normal that someone would be furious about being betrayed by someone that lives and works as close to them as the butler did with the Pope, I don't see it as a "he has to be involved somehow" situation.


As well as the courts scaling back his 3 year sentence after seeing those documents

The sentence was reduced because he had no criminal records before this case, or so the news sites say.


They have to have seen something that implicates the pope or other high ranking clergy. At lease the pope had to have known these things were taking place in the Vatican.

Well, that's your opinion that "They have to have seen something that implicates the pope" and that "the pope had to have known these things were taking place", but I don't think that things must be as you think. In all hierarchical organisations do you expect the top person to know all that happens at all levels of the organisation?


If the Pope knew of these things and didn't stop them and his attitude toward this guy, tells me the pope was in the wrong and Not following Christ.

If.


The guy has to formally request forgiveness from this MAN (the pope) . Are you kidding me? I don't know what book your reading but that's not in my bible.. even in my catholic bible.

The man needs to ask forgiveness from the Pope because the Pope is the head of state in the Vatican, in the same way, in most countries, people have to ask explicitly to the president (or whoever) for a pardon of sentence they are serving.


Your third counter is a well known tactic used often in science when people do not want to face the responsibility of answering the charge.

You have presented your opinion, why should I treat it as the truth? I am not the Pope and I don't know a thing about his life, so I cannot present any evidence that he is or isn't evil. I thought that the people making the accusations were the ones that should provide evidence of what they say.


Prove to me that for these things the pope is not evil.

You haven't provided any facts that can be countered (is that the right word?), only your opinion, so this can only be a discussion about our own opinions. As I have said before, I don't know the Pope, so I cannot really say if he is evil or not.


Do it by the catholic bible if you like,( the sole authority of the church) but you cant.

I do not know the Bible by heart (only read the Old Testament once, some years ago), and I don't think that the Bible's definition of what is evil (if there is one) matters to me, as to me that's just another book.



posted on Oct, 28 2012 @ 09:43 AM
link   
reply to post by MadhatterTheGreat
 

reply to post by Xcouncil=wisdom
 



Some of the documents suggested the existence of a web of corruption, nepotism and cronyism linked to the awarding of contracts for the maintenance of the Vatican estate. Others showed signs of widespread infighting among cardinals.
worldnews.nbcnews.com...
As far as I can tell, these alleged misdeeds:

Corruption
Nepotism
Cronyism
....are linked to awarding of contracts (favoritism and unjust treatment)
And under-the-radar dissention among the ranks:

Wide-spread In-fighting Among Bishops


they found more than 1,000 important documents among a stash of hundreds of thousands.
edition.cnn.com...

The butler, Paolo Gabriele, acted out of a desire to combat "evil and corruption everywhere in the Church," according to a prosecutor in the case.
religion.blogs.cnn.com...

Some of the documents alleged corruption in the Vatican's business dealings with Italian companies, laid bare rivalries and bickering at the highest levels of the Catholic Church, and disclosed internal conflict on the running of the Vatican bank.

uk.reuters.com...

I haven't read the book, either. But it apparently has to do with money. Surprise, surprise.
edit on 28-10-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)
edit on 28-10-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 28 2012 @ 04:42 PM
link   
So...the book came out a year ago, with details of corruption ect...
And nothing has happened except that the fellow that provided the author of said book with sources for his claims gets arrested and convicted of theft.
Either this book is a really bad read or costs a whole lot of $...or, the corruption implications arent a big enough deal for most of the world to care?
I do understand the Vatican is a sovereign state, and can handle its own affairs as it sees fit.
But, not having read the book, and assuming many others have, if there was anything really outragous in it, then the stuff would have already really hit the fan, and we would all know the terrible dealings inside the church.

So, my conclusion must be that, the corruption and in-fighting that has been exposed is exactly on par with what we expect from Pope and his minions

Therefore, we are not shocked, suprised, or moved to make any changes, the Church has always been corrupt, and always will be; yet it still claims 1.8 Billion followers. I guess that's thier choice.



posted on Oct, 28 2012 @ 07:17 PM
link   
reply to post by Xcouncil=wisdom
 


But, not having read the book, and assuming many others have, if there was anything really outragous in it, then the stuff would have already really hit the fan, and we would all know the terrible dealings inside the church.

Just like we know all the terrible dealings inside every government across the globe?

It appears to me that "outrageous" just isn't enough to bring the hammer down amongst world leaders and players.

I'm not disagreeing with your post.

Just saying, lack of public exposure does not exonerate misdeeds on any level. You know all about "spin", right?
The Vatican will do all in its power to bury this stuff. That's a given.



posted on Oct, 28 2012 @ 07:21 PM
link   

Originally posted by wildtimes
The Vatican will do all in its power to bury this stuff. That's a given.

They didn't try to stop the selling of the book, as far as I know.



posted on Oct, 28 2012 @ 07:30 PM
link   
reply to post by ArMaP
 


Apparently the book was a done deal, and already public, by the time this butler's actions were discovered.
Please don't assume that I'm anti-whatever. I just brought the story to light, and I see lots of buried corruption in all of the religious institutions.

What bothers me most about the Vatican is their ungodly wealth (pun intended), and the obvious scandals and misdeeds going on at lower levels of "management". It isn't rocket science to see that the Pope and the RCC have inordinate sums of money that could be helping those in dire need.

They could be Methodists, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Gypsies, Santeria, Baptists, Muslims, (or whatever denomination! not trying to point a finger at anyone in particular!)..........I don't care what they "call" themselves. As long as there are excessively wealthy people hoarding wealth and pretending to be "benevolent" (while hoarding wealth), I will be contrary.

God bless
edit on 28-10-2012 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 28 2012 @ 08:24 PM
link   

Originally posted by wildtimes
Apparently the book was a done deal, and already public, by the time this butler's actions were discovered.

Yes, that's why I said that they didn't try to stop the selling of the book instead of saying that they didn't try to stop the publishing of the book.


There are many cases of books that get published and that are latter forbidden from being sold because of some court order, I was just pointing that (as far as I know) the Vatican hasn't tried to do that.



posted on Oct, 29 2012 @ 10:12 AM
link   
reply to post by ArMaP
 



(as far as I know) the Vatican hasn't tried to do that.

Would they have any leverage to do that? I'd think not. The publisher is an independent entity, not under Vatican dictation. I assume. I don't see how they could justify "forbidding" it without making matters worse. The best they can do is try to spin it or discredit it.

I don't know. I haven't been following it all that closely. I tried to go to Vaticaninsider yesterday (a third party site), and the English version is off-line, as is the Spanish. I wonder why??



posted on Oct, 29 2012 @ 10:57 AM
link   

Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by ArMaP
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.



Originally posted by wildtimes
Wow. The guy who tried to expose the corruption goes to jail?

Stealing is a crime, and he didn't steal the documents in self defence.


Well, that hunk of gold nugget that they found in a shoe box in his apartment didn't help the "theft" charge. I don't know what the legalities of copying papers are, (not stealing) or what kind of confidentiality contract he may have signed. It may have had a criminal prosecution clause, for spilling the holy beans, seeing that the Vatican is a sovereign country in it's own right.

I hope that we are able to see these documents some day, that they haven't been completely seized, estoppled or destroyed altogether. At any rate, after his 18 months, this guy will be considered a saint on talk show circuits!


I wouldn't be surprised if the the gold nugget and some of the other items were planted by some of the Popes minions in an effort to discredit anything this Butler has to say. extra DIV



posted on Oct, 29 2012 @ 11:00 AM
link   

Originally posted by ArMaP

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
I didn't read the book but apparently " the leaked papers revealed claims of corruption within the Roman Catholic Church hierarchy." Instead of being "furious' about it, The Pope should have given this guy a metal. His attitude shows he has to be involved somehow.

I see it as perfectly normal that someone would be furious about being betrayed by someone that lives and works as close to them as the butler did with the Pope, I don't see it as a "he has to be involved somehow" situation.


The pope claims to be the Vicar of Christ. How did Christ respond when he was betrayed by Peter three times?
He forgave him and continued to use him in the furtherance of the Good News.
The Pope is not very Christ like in my opinion.

But then again, I have no idea what was so important about the papers the butler stole. This whole case has had an air of mystery right from the start. All I can conclude is that papers must have contained some pretty damaging information. Hopefully the truth will be revealed some day.
edit on 10/29/2012 by Sparky63 because: added comment
edit on 10/29/2012 by Sparky63 because: spelling



posted on Oct, 29 2012 @ 03:11 PM
link   

Originally posted by Sparky63
I wouldn't be surprised if the the gold nugget and some of the other items were planted by some of the Popes minions in an effort to discredit anything this Butler has to say.

I guess you didn't read what I posted about it, they said that the gold nugget was probably just a gift to the Pope sent by someone, as the butler is the responsible for the gifts and is natural that he has some things that he has not yet sent to the right place.

The documents were not supposed to be there and the police was only looking for documents, so the nugget was ignored.



posted on Oct, 29 2012 @ 03:14 PM
link   

Originally posted by Sparky63
The pope claims to be the Vicar of Christ. How did Christ respond when he was betrayed by Peter three times?
He forgave him and continued to use him in the furtherance of the Good News.

Wasn't Christ expecting it? If it was there's a difference.


The Pope is not very Christ like in my opinion.

From what I have read about both, I think you are right.



But then again, I have no idea what was so important about the papers the butler stole. This whole case has had an air of mystery right from the start. All I can conclude is that papers must have contained some pretty damaging information. Hopefully the truth will be revealed some day.

That's one of the funny things about this case, the truth is supposed to have been published before the butler was arrested, but apparently he didn't give all the documents to the journalist, and that makes me wonder why.



posted on Oct, 29 2012 @ 03:17 PM
link   
reply to post by ArMaP
 



apparently he didn't give all the documents to the journalist, and that makes me wonder why.

Very good question!!

By the way, ArMaP, you are in Portugal.....is there a national "attitude" there pro or against the Pope? (Like in Latin America, the Pope is very popular, and in Italy, I guess). Is the majority there Roman Catholic? Just curious. You have a different perspective than Americans, that's why I ask.



posted on Oct, 29 2012 @ 03:29 PM
link   
reply to post by ArMaP
 





Stealing is a crime, and he didn't steal the documents in self defence.


Why do you see telling the truth as an act of theft...



posted on Oct, 29 2012 @ 03:36 PM
link   

Originally posted by Gridrebel
Love your signature.
How is it that an exposer of evil is now a criminal?


Guy sounds like a run of the mill thief.



Also found in his possession were a gold nugget belonging to the pope, a signed check made out to Pope Benedict XVI for 100,000 euros and an original version of Virgil's Aeneid from 1581


The guy stold # and then went to jail. Sounds like justice to me. This "exposer of evil" stuff is crap. The guy was a thief. Nothing more. Good jailing, IMHO.



posted on Oct, 29 2012 @ 03:50 PM
link   
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


This "exposer of evil" stuff is crap.

Why? I don't think it's "crap". The world needs to know what their beloved "Representative of God on Earth" is up to. If he's busy covering up misdeeds and not bringing his shepherds into line, then he's complicit with the atrocities that are ALREADY exposed.

I applaud the butler for going with his conscience rather than kowtowing to TPTB. The Pope is just a man. A fallible man. Capable of sin and making mistakes. Apparently, BIG mistakes. Why do you want to be uninformed about those?





new topics

top topics


active topics

 
9
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join