Teenage Boy Scout Denied Eagle Scout Because He's Gay

Ok, as much as I fully support gay rights there is a basic principle here.

Why join an organization that you are fully aware does not support you ? This would be like a black person joining the Klu Klux Klan then complaining about discrimination.

Why does the kid want to support the BSA knowing their stance on gays ? This just smacks of someone wanting to make a name for themselves more than an actual complaint.

Join one of the alternative organizations that supports his life choice, do not try to get publicity for doing something you know is against the BSA's completely legal (though morally questionable) stance.

Originally posted by Shilver
Ok, as much as I fully support gay rights there is a basic principle here.

Why join an organization that you are fully aware does not support you ? This would be like a black person joining the Klu Klux Klan then complaining about discrimination.

Why does the kid want to support the BSA knowing their stance on gays ? This just smacks of someone wanting to make a name for themselves more than an actual complaint.

Join one of the alternative organizations that supports his life choice, do not try to get publicity for doing something you know is against the BSA's completely legal (though morally questionable) stance.

Exactly.

Game. Set. Match.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
If you were that leader, would you refuse to award the boy based on his sexual orientation too?

Again, stop hiding behind "legal rights" because this isn't the argument of the OP.

I don't know where your coming from. I have many posts in this thread and I think I mentioned the legal rights thing once. All my other post were separate topics.

If I were the leader and had this choice to make it would depend on several factors. How strongly the organization feels about these issues, could i safely choose to give the badge to the kid over the home office's objections or would the organization be o.k. with me making my own decision in this matter. We have already had two instances in this thread of both. One, the leader did not cave, the other, the leader allowed the kid to get the badge. It was not clear in either case why the leader choose his actions.

If I were the leader, I would probably tell the kid as soon as he said he was gay that he better reconsider his position and never speak of it again and say he was sexually confused and mistaken. After that, if the kid persisted, he would not be eligible to meet the requirements because he would not uphold the BSA tenets. I'd give him an out you see, but only once. I think that's fair because kids can be confused about their sexuality. He would either have to be smart enough to understand the very wide path I just gave him and act accordingly or he would have to suffer the consequences.

Originally posted by Keeper of Kheb
good for the boy scouts of america standing up for principles and moral values. God Bless them!

Devide and conqurer mentality comes from the devil not the saintlike. Lets hope god blesses them yes so the small minded fools wake up and stop creating hate in their solus that will never guide them home. Be careful on what you judge. When you are nasty against any soul then you are nasty against Jesus (‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’). Dogma does not equal righteousness.

Matthew 25:31-46
The Sheep and the Goats

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

reply to post by apushforenlightment


I don't think you understand the Bible or you're purposely shallowing it down. I treat you with respect and kindness but it is my responsibility to point out the word of God .. with kindness. The Word of God does the judging for me.

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


You didn't answer my question.

I'm not concerned about the organizations position on the matter or their legal rights. My question was directed at your personal view of this. Do you believe that this boys sexuality should be a factor in him receiving that award, or does his sexuality not concern you? That scout leader evidently made his choice based in part over his personal views, it was not just merely that of the boyscouts. What is your personal position? Do you feel the discrimmination over this boys sexuality is justified? Does him being gay affect you or the lives of his peers?

Originally posted by magma
reply to post by cconn487

 

Someone joins the organisation and follows the rules

You think the rules are silly so you don't join

Just because you don't join does not mean you run around bagging the organisation because you don't like their rules does it.

So on one hand you call bigotry and yet on the other you call the same.

Rules are rules

Say your kid was born with one arm, something they were born with and couldn't do anything about. And say the scouts' discrimination was against one-armed kids instead of gay kids. Would you still be spouting about how rules are rules then? Be honest, you wouldn't.

reply to post by Amadeo


If I had a club, and I am paying for it with my own money, I could pick and not choose anyone I wanted to join who WANTED to join. If I did not want this person to join my club, which I am funding myself, then I have the right to tell you to move along regardless of the reason. It's my money and my club. If you dont like it, then dont ask to join it.

That is a fundamental right of Americans.

Choice.

Originally posted by magma
Do people run around yelling " I am Hetero, I am hetero, I am hetero"

He should have kept his mouth shut.

But alas he knew he was breaking the rules.

And he tried to deceive with help from a mentor.

Is that what scouts is all about?

There is corruption everywhere....

I am glad they failed him. It's not because he is gay, it is because he is dishonest and a liar.

That is a ridiculous statement to make.

You are not discriminated against for being heterosexual. That is the issue here! Why should people have "own up" to others about something so private? IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!

This kind of attitude makes me sick. You think people should have to wear a label or a sign to inform everyone of their sexuality, so that it's EASIER to discriminate against them. Why not just use the traditional method - pink triangle perhaps?

This is discrimination, by a group partly funded by the US tax paying public. If the government refuses discrimination, it should not be allowing public funds to be used by a hateful and bigoted religious organization.

I'll ask again, because I think no one will want to answer this and it makes the point very clear... what would you think to a group with a "white's only" policy?

Rules are rules after all. So would you say that a white's only policy is acceptable? Please tell me, I really want to know.

reply to post by Amadeo


If the one armed son was gay, then it would be certain the scouts would not be the place for him.

Let's face it, basketball , baseball and racing car driver is not likely to be a wise organisation to join either

Here's the facts. It is well known the scouts do not like homosexuals.

What's your problem with that?

I do not like animals in my house. Some people do... So what

Originally posted by Shilver
Ok, as much as I fully support gay rights there is a basic principle here.

Why join an organization that you are fully aware does not support you ? This would be like a black person joining the Klu Klux Klan then complaining about discrimination.

Why does the kid want to support the BSA knowing their stance on gays ? This just smacks of someone wanting to make a name for themselves more than an actual complaint.

Join one of the alternative organizations that supports his life choice, do not try to get publicity for doing something you know is against the BSA's completely legal (though morally questionable) stance.

This would be like a black person joining the KKK and then complaining about discrimination?

Only if they started off white, as a little kid, and then became black later, and realized it, and was then discriminated against because of his color.

As I understand it this guy has been in the BSA for a long time, before he even knew what sexuality was. Do you expect him to have some kind of magical foresight that no other Human on Earth has ever had? Maybe all kids should be made to sign an agreement when they enter, so that if they ever do realize they are gay they can be ejected from the BSA immediately and no longer waste any more of their time?

Sorry, but your argument is a pathetic one with very little thought behind it.

Originally posted by Amadeo

Originally posted by magma
reply to post by cconn487

 

Someone joins the organisation and follows the rules

You think the rules are silly so you don't join

Just because you don't join does not mean you run around bagging the organisation because you don't like their rules does it.

So on one hand you call bigotry and yet on the other you call the same.

Rules are rules

Say your kid was born with one arm, something they were born with and couldn't do anything about. And say the scouts' discrimination was against one-armed kids instead of gay kids. Would you still be spouting about how rules are rules then? Be honest, you wouldn't.

I think it might be best to attack this through the race issue, personally.

I still haven't seen anyone justifying this when you replace sexuality with race, no one wants to do it. They all know it's the same thing, but they're too scared to admit that discrimination is discrimination.

Come on people, if you defend the BSA on this issue, you can defend another organization with a no black people rule, because rules are rules. If black people don't like it, tough!

I can wait all day.

reply to post by detachedindividual


Mens only clubs, womens only clubs, blacks only clubs, whites only clubs,

Again so what. What's the big deal.

Doesn't mean I am a member

I am a realist, not planning on changing the world.

Originally posted by FraternitasSaturni

Originally posted by Shilver
Ok, as much as I fully support gay rights there is a basic principle here.

Why join an organization that you are fully aware does not support you ? This would be like a black person joining the Klu Klux Klan then complaining about discrimination.

Why does the kid want to support the BSA knowing their stance on gays ? This just smacks of someone wanting to make a name for themselves more than an actual complaint.

Join one of the alternative organizations that supports his life choice, do not try to get publicity for doing something you know is against the BSA's completely legal (though morally questionable) stance.

Exactly.

Game. Set. Match.

The kid joined when he was very young. How many six year olds know what homosexuality is, much less that they are gay?

So he spends years in Boy Scouts, making friends and building relationships. He works hard to earn his badges and whatnot.

Then puberty hits, and he realizes he's homosexual. Does he then just throw the last years of his life away? Turn his back on his friends, forget about the hard work he's done and his own goals and dreams?

It's been suggested he join an alternative organization, and that might have been a great answer. But what if there's no organization nearby? I'll admit, I've never even knew there were alternatives.

Sigh.

reply to post by detachedindividual


The reality is simple. It is about sexuality not about race. You distort the facts for your own agenda.

Scouts accept all races, just not homosexuals

Get over it

Originally posted by magma
reply to post by detachedindividual

 

The reality is simple. It is about sexuality not about race. You distort the facts for your own agenda.

Scouts accept all races, just not homosexuals

Get over it

It's not distorting the facts at all. People here are saying rules are rules, and a private organization (even though they accept funding, which again people conveniently choose to ignore) should be allowed to discriminate.

If this were a no black people policy people here would be outraged about it. There wouldn't be any "rules are rules" BS. Okay there would, from the racist rednecks who probably are members of some KKK group, but the majority who are saying this is acceptable would not be saying the same thing if this were a race issue.

The issue is the same, it's about discrimination. One group of people is dictating that another group of people are "less than them". People seem to think this is acceptable, and they use the excuse of "rules are rules". So, these same people would presumably accept the same with regard to race.

Or, could it be that people here are just disgusting homophobic a-holes, and are using this as an excuse to support that bigotry?

It's exactly the same thing, replace sexuality with race and then justify your position. If you can't, I think we know what that makes you. If you can do that and justify it too, I think we again know what that makes you.

You can't have it both ways, you either accept discrimination or you don't.

reply to post by detachedindividual


In no way am I suggesting it is not discrimenation.

It is a fellowship regardless of who supports it financially

That in this case

Has rules

So your suggesting that they should change their rules to accomodate
Homsexual males?

Because it does not fit into YOUR ideal world?

They have their rules. Let them have them in peace. You make a choice to participate or you do not.

Originally posted by detachedindividual

You can't have it both ways, you either accept discrimination or you don't.

THIS is what it all boils down to. People are fine with it if gays are being discriminated against but what if it's YOU next? What then?

(YOU being those who think discrimination is fine in whatever form it takes as long as it's against something you don't personally like)

I am still waiting to see any kind of valid argument against BSA that hasn't been won in law suits favoring BSA.

Originally posted by magma
reply to post by detachedindividual

 

In no way am I suggesting it is not discrimenation.

It is a fellowship regardless of who supports it financially

That in this case

Has rules

So your suggesting that they should change their rules to accomodate
Homsexual males?

Because it does not fit into YOUR ideal world?

They have their rules. Let them have them in peace. You make a choice to participate or you do not.

No, you're ignoring the point and refusing to accept the question.

So you admit that discrimination is okay? You recognize that it is discrimination, and yet you're fine with that.

So, you also think that it's fine that an organization (one that receives government funds) should also be permitted to have a policy refusing membership to black people.

Like it or not, that is what you are saying. You're admitting that discrimination is okay because they have it written down that it's okay. So the same can apply to race. You're suggesting that an organization is perfectly able to have a policy against inclusion of black people, as long as it's in their rules.

It's interesting, and I think I know where this is going. It's okay to discriminate against gay people, but not black people. We all know that only leads to one conclusion about those defending this policy.