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The other "only begotten" son of God...

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posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 06:43 AM
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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
-John 3:16


John 3:16 is one of the most well known verses of the bible. It can be said that it summarizes what most Christians believe. The most crucial component of this verse is the phrase "only begotten son".... a belief in whom guarantees eternal life. The word "only" in that context implies the "son" (Jesus) was one of a kind and that there is NO OTHER who was a begotten son of God. But was Jesus really the only begotten son of God?

Lets have a look at Psalms 2:7, which was written way before John 3:16...


I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, "Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."
-Psalms 2:7


This is the only other place in the bible, where we read about God "begetting" a son. It makes it clear that Jesus could NOT have been the only one who was the "begotten", as claimed in John 3:16. In other words, John 3:16 is inconsistent with whats on the record about another man being a "begotten" son of God. Now, this isn't even about theology, its basic grammar. One would need to re-define the definition of the word "only" or "begotten" to argue otherwise that Jesus is the only "begotten" son of God. (And I get the feeling some will do so)

[size=-8]Its like me showing you my cellphone and telling you "this is the only phone I have ever used"...while keeping my old phone in my locker. It would either mean I am lying OR that I've forgotten about my first phone. Either way, my claim of having used only one phone would be inconsistent with what I have on record. i.e - Having used more than one phone.
(P.S - My first phone was a Nokia 3310. It still works fine but I cant use it anymore because the battery stopped working... and I cant find a replacement battery for it in stores)


So, one can ask.... was the author of John was unaware of Psalm 2:7?
It certainly appears so...considering how an older book in the bible shows David was also said to have been a "begotten son" of God. It invalidates John 3:16s statement about Jesus being the "only" begotten son of God. Ideally, John 3:16 should have read, one of the begotten sons as that would have been more accurate and consistent with biblical record.

It would be even more complicated for those who believe Jesus is the God of the OT.... because, it would mean that Jesus first made David his "begotten son"(!) and then, in the NT Jesus goes on to be called the "son of David"... the same person who Jesus begat in the OT.

Discuss.

edit on 6-10-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 06:54 AM
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Your premise is flawed.
Read the whole of Psalm 2 and you'll see that it is in fact a Psalm about the second coming of Christ.

e.g verse 2:


The kings of the earth rise up
and the rulers band together
against the Lord and against his anointed...


Who is the Lord's anointed?
Jesus Christ.
In fact, the psalmist literally uses the word "Messiah" (translated here as 'anointed').


4 The One enthroned in heaven laughs;
the Lord scoffs at them.
5 He rebukes them in his anger
and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
6 “I have installed my king
on Zion, my holy mountain."

7 I will proclaim the Lord’s decree:
He said to me, “You are my son;
today I have become your father.


Again, a reference to Christ, ruling from Jerusalem in the Millennial Kingdom. Verse 11:


Serve the Lord with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,
for his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.


Who is ruling? The Lord Himself. The ruler in Psalm 2 is identified then as both the Son, and the Lord. Who fits this mold? Christ alone. More than that, the psalmist tells us to "take refuge in Him". In whom does David take his refuge? In God alone (Psalm 119:114, Psalm 71, Psalm 142 etc.).

The inevitable response here will probably be "David was writing poetry, he's talking about himself".

Is he? David is identified in 2 Samuel 23:2 as a prophet; likewise in Acts 2:30. As evidence of this, we can refer to Psalm 22; a clear and obvious prophetic psalm, detailing the crucifixion of the Messiah... and quoted by Jesus Himself upon the cross ("My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?").

For more information about David as prophet, see this link.
edit on 6-10-2012 by Awen24 because: (no reason given)
edit on 6-10-2012 by Awen24 because: (no reason given)
edit on 6-10-2012 by Awen24 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 07:01 AM
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reply to post by Awen24
 


Your idea that it was actually referring to Jesus would make better sense if Jesus was the one writing Psalm 2:7. But the thing is, that Psalm was written a long time before Jesus.



posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 07:03 AM
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Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Awen24
 


Your idea that it was actually referring to Jesus would make better sense if Jesus was the one writing Psalm 2:7. But the thing is, that Psalm was written a long time before Jesus.




...hence the point about the psalm being prophetic, and the secondary reference to Psalm 22.



posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 07:07 AM
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reply to post by Awen24
 




..hence the point about the psalm being prophetic, and the secondary reference to Psalm 22.


I don't doubt that David was a prophet. But it doesn't automatically mean he was referring to Jesus.

Psalm 2:7 says " the LORD hath said unto me..."

"me" refers to the one who wrote that Psalm, i.e - David.



posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 07:10 AM
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That would be true, if the "me" in the Psalm didn't identify himself on several occasions in a manner inconsistent with David himself.



posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 07:13 AM
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reply to post by Awen24
 





That would be true, if the "me" in the Psalm didn't identify himself on several occasions in a manner inconsistent with David himself.


David was both anointed AND a ruler. So that Psalm is not inconsistent with David at all. So the "me" in Psalm 2:7 refers to David.



posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 07:32 AM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


Maybe Paul can help you out a little here:

Acts 13:33-37

33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

Based on these verses, it looks like Paul is stating that the poem in Psalm 2 is saying that David became a begotten son of God after his death as a ruler who followed the Lord's will. (IMO)



posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 08:08 AM
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reply to post by Awen24
 


The word anointed means a chosen one, the kings and priests were anointed(by rubbing expensive oil)
God is talking about the one He choose as ruler.
Bible, especially OT in many places has poetic or mystic language, but i see that anywhere "anointed" "son","father" is mentioned the 1st conclusion is Christ. so the verses would be very general in their meaning. But do serve a purpose to someone with an agenda.



posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 08:16 AM
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Thanks for all of the interesting Bible study suggestions lately, Sk0rpi0n. You've prompted me to do some lengthy research in the last couple of weeks.

My question now is, who wrote Psalm 2? Originally, I came into this discussion thinking it may have been an unknown author inspired by God or the Holy Spirit regarding Jesus or David, but I stumbled across another verse in Acts, that I find interesting.

Acts 4:25-26

25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? (Psalm 2:1)

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

So, at least Paul says that it came from the "mouth of thy servant David".

Here's an interesting commentary too:


Psalm 2 is a royal psalm. The subject of this psalm is the establishment of David upon his throne, notwithstanding the opposition made to it by his enemies. However this psalm goes beyond David and points to Christ: Verse 7 … "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." The apostle Paul in Hebrews 1:5 uses this precise verse in speaking of the person of Jesus Christ. This Psalm is about the King and fits the ministry of Christ perfectly Verse 12 ... Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way Christ as the man of destiny, the focal point of all history. God says that every nation, every tribe, every people, every individual will find its value or its lack of value in how it relates to the Son.


www.bibleinsong.com...



posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 08:19 AM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


Edgar Casey made the claim that Adam, Abraham, David and other were Jesus. Jesus said, "I and the Father are one." The Father of Humanity is Adam. Jesus is called the last Adam.

Job said this:

25 I know that my redeemer[c] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[e] in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.

The root of the problem with mankind is in Adam. Job mentions this in relation to the redeemer of mankind. The Lord in the Bible is the Son of God / God Himself / Shepherd of mankind. This Spirit of God guides all of mankind throughout our history.

1 Colossians 1:

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Adam Kadmon is a topic you should read to know for sure. LINK

This is my opinion and my rendering of the mystery. I think it is obvious. One soul was the pattern God created. From this Father of mankind both sin and salvation entered and exited. He is both beginning and end, Alpha and Omega.



posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 09:46 AM
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Matthew 22:29

...Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures...


Awen is telling you the correct interpretation of this passage Skorpion. And as Deetermined has shown, by reading other passages throughout the bible, it is clear David was speaking from a perspective other than his own. Hence, "me".

Biblically, "God" has only one "begotten son".



posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 09:57 AM
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reply to post by Klassified
 




it is clear David was speaking from a perspective other than his own. Hence, "me".


That's what one needs to assume in order to make Psalm 2:7 fit Jesus.

But the text is pretty clear, when David writes "the LORD hath said unto me", he is writing down what God said unto him . If David was speaking from a perspective other than his own, he would have written "And the Lord saith unto him, or something.

Also, as Awen pointed out, the Psalm begins with the rulers band together against the Lord and against his anointed... and as you are aware, David was anointed and was a king.



posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 10:28 AM
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This is the son of God. This right here and right now is where the light (sun/son) is, the presence. Past and future are the sons of man, they are notions like potions they are spells that hypnotize.
Come to this moment and know the kingdom.
Live in past and future and you are knowing imaginings. Stories written by men out of words and concepts are not true. This right here and right now without words (non conceptual) is not made by men, not imagined, not stained by the mark of the beast, this moment is true.

This image that is here now is the manifestation of God, the son of God.
edit on 6-10-2012 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 12:42 PM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 

As you wish, kind sir. Here's another one to ponder on...

Psalm 110

1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
5The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
6He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
7He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.



posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 01:12 PM
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reply to post by Klassified
 



You quoted Psalm 110.... a psalm which brings up the mysterious Melchizedek.

I don't get what this has to do with the subject of the OP.

Very well, lets dissect it a little further, shall we?



4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.


You do realize Melchizedek is described as being someone who is....

1. "without father or mother" (cant be Jesus because we know Jesus' mother)
2. "without genealogy" (cant be Jesus because Jesus genealogy is outlined in Luke 3:23-38)
3. "without beginning of days" (cant be Jesus because Jesus' days as a human began after his birth)
4. "without end of life" (cant be Jesus because Jesus' life "ended" with his crucifixion)
5. "resembling the Son of man". (well, you explain this one)

So who was Melchizedek?
And why is he relevant to this discussion about somebody else being the "only begotten son of God"?



edit on 6-10-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
-John 3:16


John 3:16 is one of the most well known verses of the bible. It can be said that it summarizes what most Christians believe. The most crucial component of this verse is the phrase "only begotten son".... a belief in whom guarantees eternal life. The word "only" in that context implies the "son" (Jesus) was one of a kind and that there is NO OTHER who was a begotten son of God. But was Jesus really the only begotten son of God?

Lets have a look at Psalms 2:7, which was written way before John 3:16...


I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, "Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."
-Psalms 2:7


Discuss.

edit on 6-10-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)


You have not posted the entire chapter. It was prophecy about Jesus.

King James Version (KJV) Psalm 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying, 3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. 7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. 10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. 11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.


In Biblical prophecy, it is given in present and future tense. When you read this, you know some things that do indicate it was about Jesus.

Holy Hill of Zion:

KJV Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
The Redeemer is Jesus.
Break them with a rod of iron:

KJV Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Jesus is the Rod of Jesse.

When you read the whole chapter, you learn it is not just about a man who was living in those days, it was clearly speaking of the Messiah.

David said in the Psalms (so we know that Psalms are not about David), "Adonai (The Lord, plural) said unto my Adon(The Lord, singular), sit thou on my right hand until I have made thy enemies as thy footstool." Those prophecies are spoken in present tense, because it was not David saying them, it was the Lord Himself saying it of Himself.



posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Klassified
 



You quoted Psalm 110.... a psalm which brings up the mysterious Melchizedek.

I don't get what this has to do with the subject of the OP.

Very well, lets dissect it a little further, shall we?



4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.


You do realize Melchizedek is described as being someone who is....

1. "without father or mother" (cant be Jesus because we know Jesus' mother)
2. "without genealogy" (cant be Jesus because Jesus genealogy is outlined in Luke 3:23-38)
3. "without beginning of days" (cant be Jesus because Jesus' days as a human began after his birth)
4. "without end of life" (cant be Jesus because Jesus' life "ended" with his crucifixion)
5. "resembling the Son of man". (well, you explain this one)

So who was Melchizedek?
And why is he relevant to this discussion about somebody else being the "only begotten son of God"?



edit on 6-10-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)


A priest after the order of Melchizedeck...does not mean Melchizedeck himself. Jesus is eternal, His priesthood is eternal. The Levitical priesthood had a beginning and a definite ending. Melchizedeck was the King of Salem, to whom Abraham paid tithes to.

Jesus' life did not end at the crucifixion, He was raised up again three days later. The purpose of the dying was to bring salvation, redemption and the end of the Levitical priesthood.

By His blood that was offered once, for all, ended the Levitcial priesthood because no more sacrifice was required any more.

KJV Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


The order of the office of Melchizedeck is eternal.

KJV 1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


When Jesus said "It is finished", He was saying the curse of death that came by Adam was no longer in effect. No longer could Satan have dominion over mankind, because the blood redeemed mankind. What does the word redeem mean?

1 a : to buy back : repurchase b : to get or win back 2 : to free from what distresses or harms: as a : to free from captivity by payment of ransom b : to extricate from or help to overcome something detrimental c : to release from blame or debt : clear d : to free from the consequences of sin 3 : to change for the better : reform 4 : repair, restore 5 a : to free from a lien by payment of an amount secured thereby b (1) : to remove the obligation of by payment (2) : to exchange for something of value c : to make good : fulfill 6 a : to atone for : expiate b (1) : to offset the bad effect of (2) : to make worthwhile : retrieve


Because of Adam, sin had dominion over all, but Jesus redeemed us, or bought us back through the ultimate payment. He took the penalty upon Himself. He did this willingly and knowingly before the earth was ever created.



posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 03:26 PM
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reply to post by sk0rpi0n
 


You might notice John was the one that used the "only begotten son" terminology...

Jesus said it once... and it likely wasn't his words, but johns...

The phrase "only begotten son" is not used in any of the other gospels...

Of course this is nothing against john... but he did have an affinity for narration

Draw your own conclusions i guess




posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 03:36 PM
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reply to post by WarminIndy
 




You have not posted the entire chapter. It was prophecy about Jesus.


From what I read in the bible, David clearly said "the LORD hath said unto me "

If David was writing a prophecy about Jesus... he would have said "the LORD said unto Jesus" or something.


In Biblical prophecy, it is given in present and future tense. When you read this, you know some things that do indicate it was about Jesus.

David wasn't speaking in future tense when he wrote "the LORD hath said unto me ".



When you read the whole chapter, you learn it is not just about a man who was living in those days, it was clearly speaking of the Messiah.

I'd be more inclined to believe that if David mentioned that. Instead David refers to himself.






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