Having A Pushover President Has Now Become Extremely Dangerous.

Originally posted by Andcoulter
I asked all my Canadian friends and none of them want to ever be stuck in the US as a US citizen with health issues. They know they can be taken care of in Canada and for some reason like being able to be taken care of.
What would you think they might say? How many have you asked?

Well I can tell that those who can afford better come to America instead of waiting on a long list to get the critical care they need.... Ya the small health issues they can see a doctor and get meds etc to fix it, but bigger critical health care and you get in line. The 200 plus million Americans that have good healthcare right now, Obama is destroying that...as example my company who offers great health care will be force economically to push us all into Obama care.

A big part is Obamacare will not fix the COST of healthcare in America, and that is the issue. I just don't see the need to effect ALL Americans to help 15%. Why not just help the 15%? And the way they did it...really?

What I'm saying is there are much better ways to fix healthcare than Obamacare, and Obamacare's true agenda is different than just healthcare.

reply to post by Xtrozero


As a supporter of universal healthcare, I will readily state that we also need tort reform. That will lower the instance of frivolous malpractice claims and help to lower costs.

University level education costs need to be lowered. I know quite a few doctors and almost all but the eldest are very bitter about how long it took them to pay off those loans and educational costs. So somehow controlling the cost of an education is important to the mix here.

One built in benefactor that social medicine has is that it will help to keep poor people from using the ER as a standard doctors office. That raises healthcare rates greatly. Universal healthcare would enable hospitals to simply refer those patients to their own doctors - thus saving a HUGE cost that exists today.

One other thing I can think of is making big pharma more responsible. Their lobby has had way too much influence in the lawmaking process for too long. They've muddied their own processes to maximize profits and it's backfiring on them because it was all too successful. When you can charge upwards of sixty to ninety dollars for a single pill - and then justify the cost as "research and development"??? Something doesn't add up.

Fix all of the above things and we might find ourselves in a world where repealing universal coverage might end up being the humane and rational option. Currently the opposite is true. Get Wall Street out of the doctors office and medicine will become fairly priced.

~Heff

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Well I can tell that those who can afford better come to America instead of waiting on a long list to get the critical care they need.... Ya the small health issues they can see a doctor and get meds etc to fix it, but bigger critical health care and you get in line. The 200 plus million Americans that have good healthcare right now, Obama is destroying that...as example my company who offers great health care will be force economically to push us all into Obama care.

This talking point is so warn out. My Canadian friends want to know why Americans made that up and keep pushing it. One of them actually went with me to the ER one day and waited 5 hours with me to be seen.
RIGHT HERE IN AMURICA! I had to wait and then get overbilled for what amounted to nothing.

A big part is Obamacare will not fix the COST of healthcare in America, and that is the issue. I just don't see the need to effect ALL Americans to help 15%. Why not just help the 15%? And the way they did it...really?

What I'm saying is there are much better ways to fix healthcare than Obamacare, and Obamacare's true agenda is different than just healthcare.

Oh well that has nothing to do with your lie about Canada and all the other nations on that neat little list that has been supplied you. Maybe you have a point there but I do not see what it has to do with you lying about Canadians flocking to America for better care.

Originally posted by smurfy

Can I ask, since you are seemingly out of the system, how much do you pay a month for health care insurance. Is there a premium cover, as in like gold and silver or all just basic?
How much do you pay for the much needed drugs themselves..if needed?
"We have cities bigger than many of these countries you suggest are doing it right." that old, but reworked Americanism has still not died out yet then? although you used it in the wrong way here. The more the people, the more cheaper it should become in relative terms. Crappy healthcare is not a general application, it usually means someone is not doing their job, and/or not using the technology and resources properly.

edit on 6-10-2012 by smurfy because: Text.

I'm in the system...I pay about 300 bucks a month, but also since it is a part of my compensation package I get paid less over all.

There is no magic here...it cost SOMEONE every time. I see the insurance umbrella is broken, and it is not the lack of insurance, it is the cost, and this cost is regulated by insurance. Why does a trip to the ER cost 1000s? Why does a doctor visit cost 500 plus? That is the problem.

Would it be nice if the cost was affordable out of pocket and all you needed was catastrophic healthcare insurance?

I took my one son to the ER to get a cut on his chin looked at...it was 7 hour wait and 45 minutes was filling out paper work. The bill after 5 mins with the doctor and a quick crazy glue on his chin was 1000 dollars. My other son got pink eye and it was a holiday...I didn't want to take him to the ER but I needed the meds since it was a 4 day holiday weekend. I was told of a clinic outside the insurance umbrella and I took him there...20 mins later he was in and out and it cost me 20 bucks.

I lived all over the world and in the vast majority of cases I could pay for healthcare out of pocket. A friend of mind wanted surgery on his stomach since he was way over weight. The insurance company would not cover it since he was not in poor health..yet. The operations was going to be 40k, so he went to Mexico to a good hospital and paid 8000 for the whole thing with a week down there too in a nice hotel.

My son spend three days in a private hospital room overseas due to a nasty bug and the cost was 400 bucks...instead to trying to figure out how to get insurance to pay for it I just paid cash...

My wife had breast implants and since it was outside of insurance companies the whole market is based on competition and skill. The cost was 5500 and she had it done in a American hospital by a doctor that is basically a Rembrandt...that is my point, it is the cost....

Now if you don't have insurance...in most countries you could pay out of pocket and it would be doable, but in the states you get 10,000s dollar bill, that the cost is ALL determined by the insurance companies. Why does an aspirin cost 20 bucks on their plan?

Obamacare doesn't fix this in anyway, and forces all to come under it since to not to will cost you 10x or more out of pocket than what it should cost.

I guess that is my issue with Obama care...

Originally posted by smurfy
Crappy healthcare is not a general application, it usually means someone is not doing their job, and/or not using the technology and resources properly.

Crappy healthcare happens when there is no competition to force people to do better... You ever hear about bad VA hospitals/ i.e. horse doctors... no competition...

Originally posted by Andcoulter
Oh well that has nothing to do with your lie about Canada and all the other nations on that neat little list that has been supplied you. Maybe you have a point there but I do not see what it has to do with you lying about Canadians flocking to America for better care.

Well since we are both American let's get some Canadians in on this that are here on ATS. I live near Canada... Canadians come to America...

If you have a critical health issue you can get it done quicker in the States...

Originally posted by Hefficide
Fix all of the above things and we might find ourselves in a world where repealing universal coverage might end up being the humane and rational option. Currently the opposite is true. Get Wall Street out of the doctors office and medicine will become fairly priced.

~Heff

The problem is Obamacare is not a fix at all, but a way to keep it going, but under a smaller number of insurance companies, which will make it all worst.

Do you really think the cost will go down? All will have short lines to healthcare? Every aspect of your health will be taken care of as best it can in a timely manner.... Boy you are in for a treat...

Originally posted by Xtrozero


Well since we are both American let's get some Canadians in on this that are here on ATS. I live near Canada... Canadians come to America...

If you have a critical health issue you can get it done quicker in the States...

Well gosh, barely anyone in the US lives near Canada.
Oh wait, I live near Canada and that is why I have lots of Canadian friends.

You say you live near Canada yet you do not have any Canadian friends.

Yeah, I guess your opinion of what Canadians have to say trumps mine.
Please do get some. I would rather they tell you you are wrong and watch you try to argue with them.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by smurfy
Crappy healthcare is not a general application, it usually means someone is not doing their job, and/or not using the technology and resources properly.

Crappy healthcare happens when there is no competition to force people to do better... You ever hear about bad VA hospitals/ i.e. horse doctors... no competition...

When has there ever been competition among healthcare operators and administrators in the US?
Or...when was the last time that was the state of things?

I have never had a choice in my insurer. If there is a cheaper doctor out there doing what my doctor does, you need to find him for me. If there is a cheaper hospital than the one I go to, you need to find it for me.

reply to post by Andcoulter


Who pays the bill? When a Canadian goes to the clinic or to the E.R, how is it billed? Or, is it billed? I'm not fishing for an argument, I'm truly interested.

The reason I ask is because of what Obamacare is in relation to other universal healthcare systems. Now, I am American and I do live near the Canadian border (in WI), but I've never been to a Canadian medical facility. I have been to one in Italy and that's another story.

Back to universal healthcare and my reason for asking about who is paying the bill. If Canada is set up to where citizens can receive medical care without third party involvement, then I'd have to say that I wouldn't mind seeing something similar here. However, the way Obamacare works is there is a third party that is paying the bill. Obamacare doesn't make healthcare affordable (funny they call it the affordable care plan), it simply FORCES everyone to pay a third party. THIS is the problem. I can't speak for everyone, but I know that I do not support the bill because I would rather have a universal health care plan in place that covers everyone, no matter their income, nationality, nor their political status. A plan that either sets up government hospitals (like the VA) or a plan that directly pays for their care (like Medicare).

I'd be willing to pay extra federal (or state) taxes to pay for a plan to take care of those who cannot afford insurance or don't have the means to pay for the services. I don't like having the government bringing everyone down to the lowest denominator to provide care for less than 10 percent of the population.

Originally posted by Andcoulter
I have never had a choice in my insurer. If there is a cheaper doctor out there doing what my doctor does, you need to find him for me. If there is a cheaper hospital than the one I go to, you need to find it for me.

That is my point and you can't wait for Obamacare...lol

We are off topic...this would be a good one in four years to pick back up on. I on one hand will have great healthcare no matter what, and if yours is great in four years I'll gladly say you all are right and I was wrong, I do hope for that to happen, but I fear it is not what we will see.

reply to post by SourGrapes


SourGrapes we don't see eye to eye on a lot of things but on this I'm with you 100%.

Wait, I thought Obama was a warmonger? Now he's a pushover? Make up your minds already, you can't claim he's both a pushover and a warmonger, those are mutually exclusive.

reply to post by Blackmarketeer

Dear Blackmarketeer,

Thanks for the interesting thought.

Wait, I thought Obama was a warmonger? Now he's a pushover? Make up your minds already, you can't claim he's both a pushover and a warmonger, those are mutually exclusive.

I wonder if they are so incompatible. What comes to mind is the bully who likes terrorizing people, but when he's faced up to, runs away after a couple of punches.

I'm sure there are people on ATS who would see that as an apt comparison.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by Alxandro
Now that Debate #1 is on the books, it should now be apparent that Obama has got to go!
Hear me out.

Sure his supporters will come to his defense by blaming Lehrer, the Denver air and now they are blaming the debate commission for not letting Obama use his teleprompter.
Can you believe this?

The fact remains, the only one to blame is Obama himself because he took it too lightly.
As Dennis Miller put it, "Obama got owned, refinanced, and owned again."

Certainly the worst debate performance by any incumbent President, ever!

But this should not be a joking matter because effectively, HE LET HIS GUARD DOWN AND THE ENTIRE WORLD WAS WATCHING.

I'm sure many will refuse to see it, but we are beginning to see a dangerous pattern here.
Ex. Obama is light on security, he failed to protect our military in Benghazi just as he was ill prepared for the Romney assault.

Now take a look at what the rest of the world is saying about Obama now.

I'll be honest, I watched this and I was pissed because Obama is now a laughing stock.
Do we really need this now?
Our enemies are salivating at the mouth, just waiting for him to get re-elected.

How can he be taken seriously by any world leader after that disastrous performance?

edit on 6-10-2012 by Alxandro because: (no reason given)

Please...Obama was hardly the disaster some media pundits are wringing their hands over. Biden will be the administration's attack dog in his debate with Ryan, as is appropriate. The leader of the free world needn't be so unseemly or desperate as to drag himself into the gutter under global scrutiny. Obama knows how to play chess. Romney is nothing but a rude bully and an incredible self-serving liar. His aggressiveness may work in the corporate boardroom by intimidation, but it's no way to run a country like the US. Stay tuned for the final two presidential debates.

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
Wait, I thought Obama was a warmonger? Now he's a pushover? Make up your minds already, you can't claim he's both a pushover and a warmonger, those are mutually exclusive.

I haven't heard the term warmonger dealing with Obama...apologist maybe...

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by Andcoulter
I have never had a choice in my insurer. If there is a cheaper doctor out there doing what my doctor does, you need to find him for me. If there is a cheaper hospital than the one I go to, you need to find it for me.

That is my point and you can't wait for Obamacare...lol

Then answer my question for me so I can understand your point.

We are off topic...this would be a good one in four years to pick back up on. I on one hand will have great healthcare no matter what, and if yours is great in four years I'll gladly say you all are right and I was wrong, I do hope for that to happen, but I fear it is not what we will see.

Oh, you cannot answer my question. Sure, I will give you 4 years to work it out. I guess I thought you knew what you were talking about when you wrote your last post to me. I did not realize it was a guess we were tabling for 4 years. Good luck with that.

I would really rather talk to people that can understand what is being asked and answer them.

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
Wait, I thought Obama was a warmonger? Now he's a pushover? Make up your minds already, you can't claim he's both a pushover and a warmonger, those are mutually exclusive.

The same reason he rammed everything through and shoved it all down our throats all while being a do nothing. They cannot get their arguments straight but look how well that works on the average joe they are talking to.

No Republicans seem smart enough to call this stuff out and that scares me about the entire party.

Originally posted by SourGrapes
reply to post by Andcoulter

 

Who pays the bill? When a Canadian goes to the clinic or to the E.R, how is it billed? Or, is it billed? I'm not fishing for an argument, I'm truly interested.

The reason I ask is because of what Obamacare is in relation to other universal healthcare systems. Now, I am American and I do live near the Canadian border (in WI), but I've never been to a Canadian medical facility. I have been to one in Italy and that's another story.

Back to universal healthcare and my reason for asking about who is paying the bill. If Canada is set up to where citizens can receive medical care without third party involvement, then I'd have to say that I wouldn't mind seeing something similar here. However, the way Obamacare works is there is a third party that is paying the bill. Obamacare doesn't make healthcare affordable (funny they call it the affordable care plan), it simply FORCES everyone to pay a third party. THIS is the problem. I can't speak for everyone, but I know that I do not support the bill because I would rather have a universal health care plan in place that covers everyone, no matter their income, nationality, nor their political status. A plan that either sets up government hospitals (like the VA) or a plan that directly pays for their care (like Medicare).

I'd be willing to pay extra federal (or state) taxes to pay for a plan to take care of those who cannot afford insurance or don't have the means to pay for the services. I don't like having the government bringing everyone down to the lowest denominator to provide care for less than 10 percent of the population.

edit on 6-10-2012 by SourGrapes because: (no reason given)

I think this is the next step to Universal healthcare, I associate with several doctors and this is their opinion
if you look at how other plans have been rolled out...

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by Xtrozero

 

As a supporter of universal healthcare, I will readily state that we also need tort reform. That will lower the instance of frivolous malpractice claims and help to lower costs.


~Heff

Heff, the thing about Tort reform is two fold...

A. Tort reform will not lower the operational cost of healthcare even 1%

B. Changing tort law could have disastrous effects on all TORT considerations - which could apply to
everything from car accidents to oil spills, things I think you might see great merit in.