Man Jailed by car dealer over price error.

Originally posted by gladtobehere
reply to post by neo96

 

Shouldnt he be suing the police as well?

I realize that most police are high school flunkies or GED graduates but how difficult would it be to understand that the man bought a car and was given another one in exchange?

edit on 5-10-2012 by gladtobehere because: (no reason given)

Sorry dogma does not fly too well with me.

Simple fact most cops are smarter than your average citizen even tho ATS sure likes to make them in to dumb monsters.

Once a report/complaint has been filed they have to follow the letter of the law.

They do not have that luxury.

The car dealership is the only one to blame here and should pay, because if they didn't the car dealership would have sued the cops.

Originally posted by Advantage

Originally posted by gladtobehere
reply to post by neo96

 

Shouldnt he be suing the police as well?

I realize that most police are high school flunkies or GED graduates but how difficult would it be to understand that the man bought a car and was given another one in exchange?

edit on 5-10-2012 by gladtobehere because: (no reason given)

The police are the ones who sorted it out for the guy. The police should charge the idiots for filing a false police report.

Actually, the police are not the ones who sorted it out. They arrested him and he was not released until four hours later after posting bail before a judge. It took over two months of this guy sweating out a felony car theft charge before the state's attorneys figured out he had comitted no crime and dropped the charges.

On June 15, three Chesapeake police officers arrested Sawyer in his front yard and took him before a magistrate judge. He was released on bond after about four hours at the Chesapeake jail, the suit said.

Commonwealth's Attorney Nancy Parr said her office dropped all charges Aug. 23 after speaking with representatives of the dealership and determining there was insufficient evidence to pursue the case.

In an interview Tuesday, Ellmer and Cummings said their staff never reported the SUV stolen and never asked for Sawyer to be arrested. They said they called police only for help locating the SUV while they pursued the civil action.

After speaking with police Wednesday, however, Ellmer said he'd learned one of his managers, Brad Anderson, had indeed said the SUV was stolen.

Pilot Online.com

Interesting story.....lol....your "rocking kitty" always comes up with good stuff......

I say he deserves every penny he may get.....we all know what scumbags car dealers can be, no big surprise there, but the bigger implications of how the police got involved is the "bigger picture" to me.

Apparently, these days the police are being used to be "debt collectors"....much like the "mob" used thugs to extort money out of thier "territory".....until you have been unjustly arrested you could never understand how much "trama" it causes a person. I was arrested, handcuffed, thrown in jail, abused by police, and had to stay there for 6 hours until I was able to post bail for $250, that you never get back......and....wait for this.....lol...I had a nine year old warrent for an unpaid $10 dog licence that I had not paid, my beloved dog had died, and I guess it was my "duty" to inform the city.....and actually I probably would have, but I moved and never got any notice.

The case was thrown out when I had to go before a judge in the name of "justice" he called it.....but it was tramatic..... Sorry for the personal rant....but it makes me happy that this guy is standing up for his rights...I wish I would have....

Originally posted by FortAnthem
reply to post by Zarniwoop

 

A criminal record, even without a conviction, can hurt a person in numerous ways.

I don't know where you are, but where I come from you don't have a criminal record if you haven't been convicted of anything. You haven't been convicted of doing anything "criminal"

Being arrested and let out without charge does not equal a criminal record. Neither would being arrested for murder, tried and then found innocent You only have a criminal record if you are found to be guilty of a crime.

I traded a car in once and somewhere along the line the year was listed 2 years newer than it really was. The dealer wanted me to come in and work it out but I said I was going on vacation and would get back with them. Never went back and never heard from them. You think cops are dumb they are way ahead of car dealers. Now I always tell them it's newer than it really is

Originally posted by mikellmikell
I traded a car in once and somewhere along the line the year was listed 2 years newer than it really was. The dealer wanted me to come in and work it out but I said I was going on vacation and would get back with them. Never went back and never heard from them. You think cops are dumb they are way ahead of car dealers. Now I always tell them it's newer than it really is

I just can't see how this is possible. I couldn't sell my car without its papers which state the date it was either rolled of the line or first sold. Either way, the buyer will always know how old it is.

Originally posted by RMFX1

I don't know where you are, but where I come from you don't have a criminal record if you haven't been convicted of anything. You haven't been convicted of doing anything "criminal"

Being arrested and let out without charge does not equal a criminal record. Neither would being arrested for murder, tried and then found innocent You only have a criminal record if you are found to be guilty of a crime.

What you say may be true for public records searches but when police run a background check on you, they see something different.

When police do a background check on you (which they do with every traffic stop) they see every time you've ever been pulled over and wheather you got off with a warning or it resulted in a ticket. They also see every time you've been arrested and wheather it resulted in a conviction or not (at least within their own state).

Supposedly, they do it to determine wehter you have any active warrants out on you but I would imagine that seeing all that information would probably influence their decision on wheather to give you a ticket or a warning.

If they see arrests without convictions, they may assume that your laywer found some loophole and got you off (cops think they are always right when they arrest someone and believe only people with sleazy laywers get off). They may decide you've gotten off one time too many and decide to issue a ticket instead of a warning to "balance the scales of justice".


ETA: I'd imagine a lot of gubment agencies would see the full criminal record as well. I've heard horror stories of people being denied gubment jobs because of things in their past that they even had EXPUNGED from their records. Just because they say its no longer on your "official" record doesn't mean they won't keep it on file somewhere to use it against you someday.

reply to post by FortAnthem


Nonsense. Absolute codswollop. The cops do not go into conversations over the radio over how many times you've been arrested and let go without charge or found innocent, every time you get pulled over for failing to signal.They only check for outstanding warrants. Did I mention that this is nonsense?

Oh but, I thought you were talking about jobs and not getting pulled over by the cops? Oh wait...you were. You were saying that someone who is wrongly arrested but not charged has a criminal record which you have to declare when applying for a job. I'm not sure if I've mentioned this yet bud, but this is nothing but nonsense. Drivel, tripe even.

reply to post by RMFX1


No, they don't have long conversations with dispatch pouring over your record in detail. They all have computers in their cars nowadays and have all that info at their fingertips in seconds.

Welcome to the 21st century where privacy is a thing of the past and anything you say or do will be used against you somehwhere in someway.

At the end of the day, ever arresting this man was illogical.....on what grounds? The car dealership calls the police and tells them what? Ummm...welll...we signed a CONTRACT with a customer and made a mistake, and now he expects us to honor it? It's just beyond obscene, the police should have directed the car dealership to go to civil court, and the guy probably would have won...so instead they pull some "bully" tactic on him and have him arrested......that's nonscence....

reply to post by FortAnthem


I did a little digging and while I can't be sure that this is true for all states, I can say that it is true for some and probably most. Arrests without charge are cleared from your record. Those records are not gone, but they cannot be accessed by traffic cops that pull you over for obvious reasons. So obvious you mentioned them yourself. Let it go. This poor chap will likely be a million dollars better off, and he won't be seen as a car thief the next time a cop gives him a ticket for parking in a disabled bay. He'll also be able to apply for employment in the future without fear of being seen as a criminal.

It's really that simple.

Originally posted by FortAnthem
reply to post by phroziac

 

You have to remember; every time this guy applies for a job, he's gonna have to check off "yes" in the box asking if he's ever been arrested. A lot of employers won't bother to look any further than that on a job application, especially when the arrest was for Grand theft auto.

This guy has a permanent criminal record, regardless of whether the DA threw out the charges and the dealer apologised and offered to let him keep the car at the original price.

What was done to him was needlessly excessive, embarassing and probably resulted in him having to hire a lawyer to fight the charges (which ain't cheap). 2.2 mil sounds like a reasonable asking price IMO, especially when you consider that his lawyer is probably gonna get most of it on a contingency basis.

I guesss youve never been arrested for anything stupid. Arrest records are destroyed completely if you win in court. Atleast here they do. And my case was dropped with prejudice. I dont check that box at all.

Expunged Criminal Records Live to Tell Tales

In 41 states, people accused or convicted of crimes have the legal right to rewrite history. They can have their criminal records expunged, and in theory that means that all traces of their encounters with the justice system will disappear.

But enormous commercial databases are fast undoing the societal bargain of expungement, one that used to give people who had committed minor crimes a clean slate and a fresh start.

But real expungement is becoming significantly harder to accomplish in the electronic age. Records once held only in paper form by law enforcement agencies, courts and corrections departments are now routinely digitized and sold in bulk to the private sector. Some commercial databases now contain more than 100 million criminal records. They are updated only fitfully, and expunged records now often turn up in criminal background checks ordered by employers and landlords.

Private database companies say they are diligent in updating their records to reflect the later expungement of criminal records. But lawyers, judges and experts in criminal justice say it is common for people to lose jobs and housing over information in databases that courts have ordered expunged.

Lida Rodriguez-Taseff, a lawyer in Miami, tells her clients that expungement is a waste of time. “To tell someone their record is gone is essentially to lie to them,” Ms. Rodriguez-Taseff said. “In an electronic age, people should understand that once they have been convicted or arrested that will never go away.”

Judge Stanford Blake, whose court often enters expungement orders, said his inability to make them effective had left him feeling frustrated and helpless.

New York Times


Once you're in the system, your record will always be in the system.

Originally posted by FortAnthem
reply to post by RMFX1

 

No, they don't have long conversations with dispatch pouring over your record in detail. They all have computers in their cars nowadays and have all that info at their fingertips in seconds.

Welcome to the 21st century where privacy is a thing of the past and anything you say or do will be used against you somehwhere in someway.

Seriously? Youre assuming everywhere is like where you live. Trust me, ive been in cop cars in my city before. They dont have a computer in cop cars in st joseph. They ask on the radio and its warrants and registration only. State cops have computers, and probably lots of cities do....but not here. Oh and if you have a gun theyll check the registration on that too...

He shouldn't have to pay for the car at all now! The salesman who sold it should be fired. He screwed up on his job and tried to blame the customer. His mess up became this poor guys nightmare. I don't blame him for telling him to stuff it, I would have too!

Whatever happened to competent workers?!

Hmmm, sounds like a great scam this. Sell the cheap not so great car with the design flaws that constantly have it being brought back, to the customer. Wait until the flaw shows up and the customer brings it back. Offer him a similar car which is really a bit of an upgrade (especially in price) but don't totally explain that to him. Let him drive off and then stick him with a bill for the extra and threaten to call the cops if he doesn't pay up. Totally brilliant!
Hope the dealer gets a hard punishment over this one, they were well out of order! The only groups I know of who gets away with making you pay up when they are the ones making the mistake, is the Tax Man, the Council and the Welfare Service!

Originally posted by Zarniwoop
reply to post by FortAnthem

 

You have to remember; every time this guy applies for a job, he's gonna have to check off "yes" in the box asking if he's ever been arrested.

There's no box for "arrested", only "convicted"

It won't even show up on a background check. He'll be fine as far as that goes.

I thought that too......and almost got myself arrested on a dark roadside one night learning how wrong that is these days. In 1993 I was arrested for something and the charge isn't important but to say it would have been a misdemeanor is it had ever gone anywhere. My only official arrest, ever. I spent 8 hours in holding and got released on 'own recognizance'. When it came time to appear, I found the charges had never been filed, I wasn't on the docket and never would be. It was all just dropped. So literally....JUST an arrest with fingerprint and booking. Nothing more, at any point.


Flash forward to a deputy sheriff on a lonely stretch of highway in S.D. in 2004. I'm heading back from a funeral with my wife, sister in law and kid and have a gun which back then, didn't have the carry permit. Missouri simply didn't have one I could get. Guess what pops up? My arrest from 1993...in detail...and enough to see it was ALSO listed as nothing more happening.

So... These days and all the way back to 1993 anyway, don't ever make the mistake of thinking an arrest isn't recorded and absolutely part of your record.It IS. This Sheriff was a drug unit looking for smugglers at 3am, and thats what got me stopped at all....so I'm thinking he might have been running a higher level of the NCIC database than most cops to see that.

In the end..I got my gun back -unloaded- and put in the trunk for me and let go...but before that, I believed everyone too by thinking that little arrest had just dropped away to be forgotten. Oh how silly we are to think we only have ONE version of a "record" and that anything..anything at all...is ever forgotten or lost.

Originally posted by FortAnthem
When he got home he found a stack of mail and a ton of missed phone calls from the dealership. They said the car he drove off with was worth $5600 more than the one he originally bought and they wanted him to come in and pay the difference. He told them to stuff it.

The buyer is in the wrong.
This is "wrong price tag" theft. If a shop accidentally puts a wrong price tag on an object, you do not have the right to have it at that price.

Same as if a bank puts 2 million dollars into your account by mistake.
It is not yours.

The Theft Act 1968 says...

Where a person gets property by another’s mistake... an intention not to make restoration shall be regarded accordingly as an intention to deprive that person of the property or proceeds.

Having said that, the way the dealership went about fixing their mistake is rather horrible.

We all know what must be done. Drag this dealership and it's owners names through the mud and into the cesspool. I'm working on spreading the word. I hope others on ATS care enough to help me too.

This actually reminds me of a story, when I was younger I traded a 1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.9l for a brand new Cherokee Laredo at a dealership in Orem, Utah. They promised the new "Trail Rated" Jeep would be much better and that I would really enjoy it. A few days later it snowed, I couldn't even back the new piece of #ake out of the garage into the snow covered drive way. It just sat there like a pig in the snow while I proceeded to dig it out by hand and then pull it back in the garage.

I was so displeased that I went back to the dealership to get my old Jeep back. They told me that it was too late and it was sold to another dealership for used cars in the Salt Lake City valley. They also told me, that it wasn't a valid reason for returning the new car. The whole "if you aren't happy with it, bring it back" was just a line of more #ake. So, I called the cops, told them I needed them to meet me at the dealership because I had a problem with a stolen car.

A few moments passed and the cops came with sirens and came running inside. In front of other customers about to sign paper work I told the story as loud as possible and the Police told me that I would need to take it to court. The dealership was embarrassed as hell, and finally caved. They not only escorted me to the dealership to get my old Jeep, but they had to purchase it back for what that dealer wanted, which was much more than the trade in value, and more then they had sold it to the dealership for.

This has happened twice to me, once with a Jeep and once with a RX-8 where the dealer let me test drive it for a month without signing a scrap of paper and then I simply brought it back and dropped it off at their doorstep. They said they would refuse to accept it and put it down as a repo on my credit report, since I never signed anything I told them go ahead and try. I waited for someone to come and pick me up and then left the car sitting in their lot. I called a few days later and the guy said. "Don't worry about it, its already detailed and back on the lot for sale." Like a really long nice rental car without putting any money down. Dealerships will bend over backwards to try and earn your business, but 9 times out of ten they will screw you, nice when are the one doing the screwing.