If NDE are real and not hallucinations, why doesn't everyone experience it?

Originally posted by chelle21689
Just curious for your explanation. I don't know if you watched the video or not...but if it is a hallucination how was Pam able to describe the details of how the odd surgical tools looked without it ever being out of its package, her eyes taped shut, and the ticking things in her ear? How was she able to recall the conversation and them moving down to cut her leg in detail as if she were awake when she was knocked out? Surely she couldn't have felt it if she was numb and like I said unconscious?

Being unconscious just means you're not conscious of your surroundings, however certain parts of the brain are still perceiving the external stimuli.

Many people that are classified as being clinically dead are actually still alive. the tests done to classify the dead dont actually test higher brain functions. Thank the organ transplant industry for that.

life and death are both conscious states. We know we are alive and we know we shall die.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by chelle21689

 

What if life is a hallucination? What if when you go to sleep and there is no dream - that IS the reality, and when you wake up or go to sleep and have a dream - this is all hallucination - bu reality is a more organized one?

Just a thought....

No don't give out the secrets to the Multiverse realities that are not ready for them, one might cause existence to cease.

Originally posted by chelle21689
It is kind of sad because I was hoping that the NDE is real but science has actually debunked this and the Pam Reynolds story...I can't find the article but I was able to on my bf's iphone...odd. I'm going to have to post it later.

Science also concluded that ghosts/interacting with spirits as hallucinations. The "bad" feeling you get is produced by low frequencies and have tested this.

=\ Too bad.

Just keep this in mind (what one of the commenters said on one of the websites you linked)

Science doesn't 'explain' anything. The scientific method does not discover Truth - it eliminates falsehood. The scientific method is the most important technique available to humanity, but the history of science is littered with the bodies of 'scientists' who claim to have the truth wrapped up. Once you believe that a scientific theory is True, you have stopped being a scientist and become a religious; you stop looking for the puzzling exceptions and only look at the confirmations.

So it eleminates NDE as another realm but as a strong strong dream lol

Originally posted by InhaleExhale

Originally posted by chelle21689
Just curious for your explanation. I don't know if you watched the video or not...but if it is a hallucination how was Pam able to describe the details of how the odd surgical tools looked without it ever being out of its package, her eyes taped shut, and the ticking things in her ear? How was she able to recall the conversation and them moving down to cut her leg in detail as if she were awake when she was knocked out? Surely she couldn't have felt it if she was numb and like I said unconscious?

Being unconscious just means you're not conscious of your surroundings, however certain parts of the brain are still perceiving the external stimuli.

Many people that are classified as being clinically dead are actually still alive. the tests done to classify the dead dont actually test higher brain functions. Thank the organ transplant industry for that.

life and death are both conscious states. We know we are alive and we know we shall die.

Hey Mitt....you didn't answer the guy's question.



I need to hire someone to remind me to never bother answering an OP's thread question with specifics. At least not here. Scientific studies that replicate - in extremely vague ways - small aspects of the NDE (such as the while light tunnel and the feeling of the presence of others) are not studies that debunk NDEs as being anything other than brain synapse misfirings. To believe this is to not actually understand what is being examined.

As far as this gem is concerned...

the tests done to classify the dead don't actually test higher brain functions.

...are you serious?

The presence of higher brain function has already been determined long before such tests are ever even considered, so while it's true that the brain-dead tests do not test for higher brain functionality, those tests are not the only tests that are done when an unconscious, unresponsive person is being examined. Personally, it galls me to no end when someone misrepresents statements like this and then tries to shut down an opponent's points by way of those statements. To me, it smacks of outright lying, and maybe it's my own anger at the gross lying that's become "negotiation strategy" in this ugly little moment in our society's history, but your post just irked me to no end. It forced me to comment on that one shady statement. chelle21689's question is legitimate, and deserves an answer.

In Ireland some families used to just tie a bell to your toe and wait?
A weeks probably over generous though especially these days with the organ harvesting.

Originally posted by chelle21689
So it eleminates NDE as another realm but as a strong strong dream lol

Science has debunked nothing when it comes to NDE, Ive read dozens of them and have been reading articles about them for years.
All the debunk stuff is theory's as none of it has s been proven.

How about blind NDES, I dont care what anyone says if you have been blind since birth how could your brain hallucinate the sun, colors or other objects it has never processed before?

How can the blind possibly see at death? They were blind before and they are blind after the NDE, yet during the death period some can describe what only a sighted person can perceive. They cannot see these things with their eyes, so how do the blind transcend their blindness near death? Also how could it explain being met by dead relatives you had no prior knowledge existed until you came back and someone older in your family verified it?

That makes no sense. Read up on NDES more, nothing has been debunked..

Originally posted by chelle21689
So it eleminates NDE as another realm but as a strong strong dream lol

You've never actually read many NDE accounts before, have you?

These are the most intriguing aspects of the NDE Phenomenon ...

* Once a person's brainwaves have ceased, indicating that all mental activity has stopped - perceiving, thinking, and remembering - how do we explain their accurate perception of events going on around their 'deceased' body (both sight and sound), and their accurate reporting of events taking place even at significant distances from their clinically-dead body?

* If we regard experiencers' perceptions of dead relatives as just imaginary "wishful thinking", how can we explain their accurate description of relatives previously unknown to them, yet later verified by living relatives and by civil documents?

* If the spiritual component of the near-death experience could be explained away as just an extension of the person's pre-existing belief system, why have confirmed atheists come back after their NDE convinced there is a God? And why have religious believers returned from their NDE with un-orthodox changes to their prior dogmas?

I'd also add, NDEs of the Blind. Where persons Blind have seen verifiable events during their NDE. One example, is a man who went totally blind early in his life (cannot even see shadows, etc), who, during his NDE many years later, saw the doctors, nurses, surroundings, events, etc, and reported back on it to the doctors when he revived. He even told the doctor he was wearing a red and green tie.

Please, tell me how "Carbon Dioxide" or ''___'" can account for all of that?

aleroy.com...

What do the Skeptics on the otherhand have to say about NDEs? Let's be fair now.

Skeptic Argument # 1: Dying Brain Theory

The Dying Brain Theory states that upon clinical death the brain is slowly starved of oxygen and creates a vivid hallucination that is later remembered as an NDE.

This theory in truth falls very short of the cold hard medical facts of what happens to the brain after cardiac arrest occurs and when clinical death sets in, and is likewise destroyed by the well documented Veridical Aspects of the NDE Phenomenon itself that are never adequately dealt with as a whole.

In total refutation of the "Dying Brain Theory" the cold hard medical facts are that when a person's heart stops they lose total consciousness within seconds. The loss of consciousness is complete and there are no memories of the event. EEG and brain stem monitors show no brain activity while in this state. There is no gag reflex, no pupil response, no brain activity whatsoever. They are dead. The brain cannot produce images in this state, and even if it could, you wouldn't remember them.

Multiple medical doctors including Peter Fenwick a respected neuropsychiatrist, Pim Van Lommel a cardiologist, Sam Parnia, Bruce Greyson, Ian Stevenson, Melvin Morse, Michael Sabom, and numerous others, will tell you the same thing.

"Simultaneous recording of heart rate and brain output show that within 11 seconds of the heart stopping, the brainwaves go flat. Now, if you read the literature on this, some skeptical people claim that in this state there is still brain activity, but, in fact, the data are against this in both animals and humans. The brain is not functioning, and you are not going to get your electrical activity back again until the heart restarts." (Dr. Peter Fenwick)

Dr. Sam Parnia: "During cardiac arrest brainstem activity is rapidly lost. It should not be able to sustain such lucid processes or allow the formation of lasting memories."

Pim Van Lommel's well-known research study published in The Lancet, a leading medical journal, also notes that cerebral activity flatlines within 4 to 20 seconds of cardiac arrest.

"How could a clear consciousness outside one's body be experienced at the moment that the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical death with flat EEG? . . . Furthermore, blind people have described veridical perception during out-of-body experiences at the time of this experience. NDE pushes at the limits of medical ideas about the range of human consciousness and the mind-brain relation. In our prospective study of patients that were clinically dead (flat EEG, showing no electrical activity in the cortex and loss of brain stem function evidenced by fixed dilated pupils and absence of the gag reflex) the patients report a clear consciousness, in which cognitive functioning, emotion, sense of identity, or memory from early childhood occurred, as well as perceptions from a position out and above their 'dead' body." (Van Lommel, Van Wees, Meyers, Elfferich (2001). Near-Death Experience in Survivors of Cardiac Arrest: A Prospective Study in the Netherlands. Lancet.)

The Dying Brain Theory also doesn't explain why only 18% of those who are brought back from clinical death experience an NDE, while the remaining 82% do not. Even under the exact same conditions.

"Our most striking finding was that Near-Death Experiences do not have a physical or medical root. After all, 100 per cent of the patients suffered a shortage of oxygen, 100 per cent were given morphine-like medications, 100 per cent were victims of severe stress, so those are plainly not the reasons why 18 per cent had Near-Death Experiences and 82 percent didn't. If they had been triggered by any one of those things, everyone would have had Near-Death Experiences." (Van Lommel 1995)

I'd like to clarify that even though only 18% of those who are brought back from clinical death experience an NDE (all under the same medical conditions), the LONGER one is clinically dead, the higher the chance of being brought back with an NDE. Those who were clinically dead longer than several minutes have a far higher chance of coming back with an NDE than those who were clinically dead for only a minute or two.

Skeptic Argument # 2: '___' Chemicals Causing NDEs

'___' does not account for the Veridical Elements of the NDE, nor the amazing structure of many NDEs, according to the book "'___': The Spiritual Molecule," it may act as an initial NDE trigger, but cannot make up for the entire experience, Veridical Elements and all, in addition to the pesky little fact that within 4 to 20 seconds of cardiac arrest, the brain waves go flat, and even if they were sufficient (which they are not), the brain cannot produce images in this state, and even if it could, you wouldn't remember them.

Skeptic Argument # 3: Ketamine

The Skeptic Sources refering to the Drug Ketamine causing NDEs are referencing an old paper by Ketamine Researcher Dr. Karl Jansen, who has since totally changed his stance on Ketamine actually causing the experiences, and is now far more open to the metaphysical component of NDEs. His current hypothesis is that Ketamine and other triggers of NDEs/OBEs simply act as a "door to a space" rather than actually producing that space. He states that his findings now are more in line with other researchers in his field such as John Lilly and Stanislav Grof.

"I am no longer as opposed to spiritual explanations of these phenomena as this article would appear to suggest. Over the past two years (it is quite some time since I wrote it) I have moved more towards the views put forward by John Lilly and Stan Grof. Namely, that drugs and psychological disciplines such as meditation and yoga may render certain 'states' more accessible. The complication then becomes in defining just what we mean by 'states' and where they are located, if indeed location is an appropriate term at all. But the apparent emphasis on matter over mind contained within this particular article no longer accurately represents my attitudes. My forthcoming book 'Ketamine' will consider mystical issues from quite a different perspective, and will give a much stronger voice to those who see drugs as just another door to a space, and not as actually producing that space'." (Dr. Karl Jansen)

Melvin Morse M.D. wrote an insightful article titled "The Right Temporal Lobe And Associated Limbic Lobe Structures As The Biological Interface With An Interconnected Universe" that is along these lines of thought.

Skeptic Argument # 4: The Navy Airmen Stress Tests

These are studies where they used Navy Airmen in G-Force stress tests that caused the blood in the heads of the individuals to drain, inducing a state of simulated clinical death, in which NDEs were reported. These do not conflict with the NDE Phenomenon, as the persons were essentially put into a state of simulated clinical death when the blood drained from their heads, and they had an NDE.

Again, like Pim Van Lommel's findings, it only occured in 18% of individuals who underwent and came back from this state of simulated clinical death.

Skeptic Argument # 5: Susan Blackmore's Critique Of "The Tunnel"

Regarding the Tunnel that people see during their NDEs, Susan Blackmore has theorized that the optic nerve causes a "Tunnel Effect" due to random neuron firings in the back of the eye to explain away the "Tunnel" that people see.

But a woman named Vicki who was born blind had her optic nerve severed in her incubator at birth, and she still visually saw a Tunnel during her NDE and OBE. And it happened awhile into the actual experience.

The fact is, The Tunnel can appear in front of them, to the side of them, up above them, even through a wall, soon after or long after their clinical death set in. And sometimes even not at all.

The Tunnel is truely a moot point concerning the overall NDE experience.

Skeptic Argument # 6: The Assertion That People Only See And Experience What They Already Believed

This is completely untrue. Atheists and Agnostics come back believing in a God. Many Christians come back believing in Reincarnation, that Other Religions are Valid Spiritual Paths, and other Unorthodox Hetrodox ideas. There are a number of cases of Hindus meeting Muhammed, Muslims meeting Buddha, Christians meeting a Figure of God other than Mainstream Christianity. (I know one Southern Baptist Christian who saw Shamanic Imagery in his NDE, and became a Shaman. I met another one who met a Demiurge Figure in Addition to a God Figure, which reflects Gnosticism.) A seven year old girl who was raised Christian saw deceased spirits of people waiting to be reborn (reincarnation) that goes against her belief system, etc.

I know an Atheist who had a very profound NDE when she was a child, and she had been raised non-religious, and she had experienced God in a Panentheistic Context, that she was informed "All is One", and she said that she became and identified and connected with everything during her NDE. Very much in line with Eastern Spiritual Thought.

Skeptic Argument # 7: Keith Augustine's Anti-NDE Article (The Skeptic's Trump Card)

Sources such as Keith Augustine's article will prey upon the perceived weakness of certain NDEs, out of their full context, while ignoring alternative explainations and far better and far stronger NDE examples, in an attempt to bring all NDEs down. The "weird" NDEs he presents are without context, and his sources are usually Christian Fundamentalist Anti-NDE Books (Not Kidding), and short excerpts from Books of NDE Researchers, taken out of their full context and presented without the full explanation of the NDE Researchers who are presenting them. His alternative explanations of Veridical NDEs ignore pesky facts and additional and alternative information that he conveniently ignored to come to his conclusions.

The bulk of his arguments against specific veridical cases, revolve largely around presenting totally unprovable unverifiable highly speculative "coulda-woulda-shouldas" regarding how they "could have seen/heard those things naturally" while ignoring well presented alternative explanations, the full context of the specific cases, and ignoring all of the known facts and circumstances surrounding the matter at hand that conflict with his hasty conclusions. His arguments often revolve around presenting a totally one-sided view of things, ignoring what the other side has to fully say regarding it, and comes up with his own conclusion without the full data being presented there. There are times where he partially or very briefly and shortly presents what the other side has to say, but certainly not all of it, as much of what he does not present is very damning to his side of the argument.

You only get what you're allowed to receive in this earth school. Some get to have peaks under the curtain and some of that is earned by past behavior, and current behavior, some simply honor their agreements before coming in and refuse those peaks, or aren't allowed them yet. Earth is a school.

Their may be some explanation to some NDE's but then these wouldn't truly be NDE's would they. Talking from experience, you and only you really know what was just experienced. Their just like UFO sightings. A large percent of them are explainable. But then there's the rest that have no explanation. These are truly NDE's. It changes the way you feel about death. For instance, not being religious I always wandered if it was just lights out when you died. Now I have my answere and I no longer fear death. Ive heard stories of people having a NDE and ended up a wiz a mathematics or a super memory but I believe I was given the best gift of all. I was given a glimpse of what it is like to leave your body when it is about to die. What you feel when leaving your body. And it is true, your body is just a vessel for the energy it carries. Where your energy goes is the big question. And I was given this answere as well. There is positive energy and negative energy. You're energy will join with the one it belongs. Example, if you're a bad, mean, evil person you will join the negative energy. And vise verse. Lucky me, I found out I am positive energy and merging with other positive energy felt so good. I felt the energy of relatives, old pets and my mom as well as others. You know within if you're positive energy or negative. This made so much sense to me. The universe is just energy. Positive and negative. We are all a part of it. This may sound crazy but it's how it is. You'll see.....

Top neurosurgeon 'spent six days in heaven' during a coma

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.youtube.com...

I've seen that documentary on the neurosurgeon before. There are still questionable things. Hmm.. I guess skeptics will always come up with their own theories to try to debunk.

Ker2010, nice facts for arguing the skeptics side! Thanks.

Why don't we all simply agree that when someone says there is no evidence for X, this means that the person believes there is no compelling evidence for X. This is particularly reasonable if we are supposed to assume that anything a person calls "evidence" is actually evidence, though not necessarily strong evidence.

We all understand that evidence is not proof. Don't we?

Every statement we ever make is implicitly prefixed with "I believe that ..." There is no reason to require that prefix in front of certain classes of statement.

I agree that if there are nuances to the amount or kind of evidence, then the person should explain more precisely what she means. However, I don't think that:

I believe there is no seriously compelling evidence for X.

is much more informative than:

There is no evidence for X.

If you're trying to say something more nuanced, then you need more words.

I wish for for everyone I love to have a happy, healthy, long life...that including me! LOL Although I don't wish me harm or anything of some sort, if I were to ever face near death I hope to experience this for myself and decide. I envy those that dont' fear death because I do. I fear there is nothing...so I am agnostic and not 100% sure in my faith. I don't know if I want to believe because then it'd be wishful thinking...I hope there is something. If it is reincarnation, I think you might as well be dead and nothing happens IMO lol.

You guys have given me a lot to think about. I don't have a headache anymore from thinking but it's just in the back of my mind now. I hope that I can just concentrate on the love I have with those in my life and not think of the clock ticking. My family and I don't tell eachother we love eachother or are affectionate, we just aren't that way but we know the love is there and we'd be there for eachother in a bad situation. now I'm rambling...I shutup now.

Originally posted by chelle21689
I wish for for everyone I love to have a happy, healthy, long life...that including me! LOL Although I don't wish me harm or anything of some sort, if I were to ever face near death I hope to experience this for myself and decide. I envy those that dont' fear death because I do. I fear there is nothing...so I am agnostic and not 100% sure in my faith. I don't know if I want to believe because then it'd be wishful thinking...I hope there is something. If it is reincarnation, I think you might as well be dead and nothing happens IMO lol.

You guys have given me a lot to think about. I don't have a headache anymore from thinking but it's just in the back of my mind now. I hope that I can just concentrate on the love I have with those in my life and not think of the clock ticking. My family and I don't tell eachother we love eachother or are affectionate, we just aren't that way but we know the love is there and we'd be there for eachother in a bad situation. now I'm rambling...I shutup now.

Granted, there is evidence. However, for me it's not compelling, since there are various other options, as discussed in other threads many times, for which there is evidence, too, and which are fully compatible with the corralation of brain state and consciousness.

I noticed that Dr. Sam Parnia's name has been dropped by NDE believers and to prove that I am not all "bad guy", I have bad news to report. Bad for proponents anyway.

Dr. Parnia's NDE research is a highly well hidden skeptics dream-soon-to-come-through and here is why.

Parnia's methodologies are purposefully and fatally flawed to skew the outcome to the NDE=brain function POV. He is relying on placing signs on out-of-normal-sight places inside operating rooms in the hope, and hope it is, that these signs will be seen by NDErs. This presupposes that NDErs will see the signs. Why in the world should they? Do you think sign reading will be important to a NDEr?

Mark this down. Parnia is playing quite a game and proponents, when he releases next summer, will be shocked, startled and permanently smacked down as Parnia will claim that NDErs did not see his signs. duh, ya' think?

You heard it here and if you wish to spread the word, please not it came for a great and proven skeptic.

Me.

Originally posted by moniesisfun
reply to post by Logarock

 

No thanks!

My beliefs are quite different

Did you know that the experience of NDE depends on the culture, and/or religious beliefs or lack there of from the individual?


hmmm, I wonder what we can conclude

that you protest too much?