What Muslims think about mocking prophets

Originally posted by mideast
reply to post by Andcoulter

 

Shouldn't you as a Muslim be far more worried about bad Muslims than bad Christians?

This is simple.

Wahhabis are not Muslims

And those who call them selves Christian + they know the lessons of Jesus + they don't do as Jesus did = they are not Christian.

They are a shell of Christian + I wanna do what I please . Like wahhabis.

West created Wahhabis to achieve it's goal. It is clear in history.

+ What that I don't talk about , doesn't mean that I am satisfied with it + I am concerned with many other facts but I don't discuss them in this thread.

peace.

edit on 3-10-2012 by mideast because: (no reason given)

Ok, tell me this. I am "Christian" insofar as I believe in the actual teachings of Christ - peace, love, tolerance, charity, etc. But I do not believe in the mystical or superstitious parts of the religion - Christ being the actual son of god, the virgin birth, miracles, and so on. So virtually any Christian would say that I am not a true Christian, and I would say (as you do) that they are not true Christians if they do not behave in Christ-like ways. And you want to disciminate between various types of Muslims and determine who is a real Muslim and who isn't as well.

So, who really knows? Who is in charge? How could we imperfect humans ever devise and implement a system to arrive at the real truth? In answer to those questions, we in the West have developed a societal value in separating church from state, to avoid enshrining smallmindedness into law. And we have developed science to answer the real questions about the nature of the universe. And because of our acceptance of the limits of power and the usefulness of empiricism, we believe in free speech and that, in essence, nothing is sacred and everything should be defensible on its merits or discarded.

And this is where we are different. I say nothing is sacred. I can stand on the street corner and scream f--- Mohammed and f--- Jesus, and if you want to fight me over my blasphemy, I will fight you for the right to be a blasphemer. Because I know the moment you limit speech you limit thought, and when you limit thought you hide the truth from yourself. THIS is why I do not see the Western world and the Islamic world coming to terms any time soon. The Islamic world was once the center of learning and science, but the religion turned in a dark direction and occulted that which could have made it the center of the world. Now you see us as infidels and we see you as backward and an impediment to progress. Where do we go from here?

Originally posted by Zack241
I understand that we should perform Jihad when someone tells lies about Islam and we should do something about it,

And there in is a big part of the problem ...

- What Muslims call 'lies' about Islam are many times just people telling the truth. Example - When a non-muslim says Muhammad was a murderer and a thief ... that is just a non-muslim telling the truth. Muhammad being a murderer of political opponents and a thief is well documented. But many Muslims go nutz when that truth is told and they violently riot and kill people.

- Going on 'Jihad' because people don't buy into what Islam is trying to sell .. that's not a live and let live policy. That's Islam insinuating itself onto others. That's Islam not respecting the rights of others to believe as they wish.

reply to post by Andcoulter

You are not really asking me that are you? I quoted it exactly from you so there would no confusion. Here it is again.

To be perfectly honest with you, in my self-educated ignorance I really had little understanding of the word 'dichotomy' until reading your post.

I have no idea how some of the basic, different mind sets / viewpoints / beliefs etc became a 'dichotomy', I can only suggest that maybe after up to 1400years of Islam it's teachings and beliefs have seeped into the very essence of Middle Eastern society and culture.

.......and from here it has the scent of a ruse

A ruse?
And why would I attempt something like that?
For my own benefit what gives you that impression?
I assure you I only speak as I find and I also attempt to be as transparent and honest in all my posts, or indeed anything I do.

in attempt to engage in something perhaps cathartic on your behalf but most likely less than productive on mine.

I have no need at all to engage in any sort of 'cathartic' exchange or outpouring - I believe what I believe and I fail to see why expressing those beliefs may be construed as part of some sort of 'cathartic' releif.
If that is the case then I'd suggest the vast majority of people who post here on ATS are also engaging in the same sort of process - I much prefer to believe that we just like to express our thoughts and opinions and share them with people - no need to over analyse or over complicate it.

If you are serious about your question above then I am not sure I will ever be able to communicate with you in any manner that will benefit anyone.

As much as I enjoy exchanging opinions and debating with all manner of people and learning one or two things along the way you should really just do as you see fit - makes no real difference to me either way.

But I will say that if you intend to maintain that sort of approach then your stay at ATS will either be a very short one or a very lonely one.

.....and be right up front about where you want this to go.

As I hope sure one or two people here on ATS can attest to I am nothing if not open and up front about things, perhaps too much so at times.

I am not looking for fights.

Good.
Me neither.

reply to post by mideast


this post smells of hate, you sound a bit hostile. I would keep an eye out for someone like you.

Originally posted by mideast

Muslims don't want this to happen for them.

Muslims (generally) have and they will stand for the honor of their special prophet (peace be upon him).

this sounds like a threat.

Jihad has different levels.

The most extreme is fighting.

In fact , Muslims are not considering Jihad to be the fighting or there should be no none-muslim taking over Muslim countries.



Jihad existed before Muhammad. David was a war leader of Israelite. Moses invited Israelite to fight.

many things are not clarified about Muslims and that is how cursed they are

They abandoned their 11 Imams. They let them to be killed.

Now , their 12th Imam and key to all mysteries is hidden.

It is told that Muslims are much like Israelite. Muslims are wondering in time , while Israelite was wondering in place.



Those many wars were imposed on Muhammad. He always stood by the people who were forced to leave their homes. And other groups of people imposed wars on him.

Originally posted by Zack241
Sometimes when I look at the Muslim propaganda, both are sides are going to be blamed in the end. As a Muslim, I understand that we should perform Jihad when someone tells lies about Islam and we should do something about it, but why are people in the Middle East performing Jihad violently? We should've done it peacefully in which we are supposed to do but to no avail. Don't let emotions get over us or else this will really be our downfall.

That is because they are self-biased and there is no Imam to guide them.

But Muslims who are being invaded or killed do have the right to defend themselves and fight back.

That is the bright side.

That is what is scaring western countries and holding them back.

Or they should have invaded middle east and taken over it.

Jihad is used to be defending . But western govts show that is offensive and threatening.

They help to produce new movies to fulfill this propaganda.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Zack241
I understand that we should perform Jihad when someone tells lies about Islam and we should do something about it,

And there in is a big part of the problem ...

- What Muslims call 'lies' about Islam are many times just people telling the truth. Example - When a non-muslim says Muhammad was a murderer and a thief ... that is just a non-muslim telling the truth. Muhammad being a murderer of political opponents and a thief is well documented. But many Muslims go nutz when that truth is told and they violently riot and kill people.

- Going on 'Jihad' because people don't buy into what Islam is trying to sell .. that's not a live and let live policy. That's Islam insinuating itself onto others. That's Islam not respecting the rights of others to believe as they wish.

1400 years ago , in between of Arabs who didn't know how to write , you see a new messenger who has read all the holy books and invented a new religion.

I buy it. -sarcasm.

reply to post by mideast


Why do you feel you have the right to tell others what they can and cannot say?

Originally posted by RealSpoke
reply to post by mideast

 

Why do you feel you have the right to tell others what they can and cannot say?

They are saying what they want actually.

But mutual respect is what you are missing to look at as a goal.

Is that much ?

Jesus, who Islam considers a prophet, condemned the false religious leaders in his day and mocked them calling them "offspring of vipers", and that their father was Satan the Devil.

(Matthew 3:7) 7 When he caught sight of many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to the baptism, he said to them: “You offspring of vipers, who has intimated to you to flee from the coming wrath?

Muhammad condemned those that do not believe in Islam,heaping scorn upon them and considered them animals and in some cases calling for their death.

Quran (8:55) - Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve

Why should I be prevented to do the same?In my opinion, Islam has not earned my respect nor has it lived up to it's claim as a religion of peace. I do not make it a habit of intentionally insulting any religions prophet, but I do not accept that I should be restricted from speaking what I believe to be the truth about any religion, their teachings, or their prophets.If I say something about Muhammad that is a lie, any Muslim has the opportunity to refute it and prove me wrong. If it cannot be refuted the offended party has no right to claim offense.

And I agree with the OP that Those who promote, condone, or resort to violence cannot be excused or tolerated.

I very seriously doubt God, Allah, YHWH, Jehovah - whatever you want to call "Him" - is terribly worried about being mocked by us petty non-omnipotent mortals. Pretty sure He has bigger things to worry about, like keeping gravity working or something. Your prophet is not special.

As much as I respect Mid Eastern people and their culture, and as much as I respect a Muslim's fundamental right to worship as he or she sees fit, I ask the Muslim, world to respect my fundamental right to believe or not in whatever I want, as well as my fundamental right to say whatever the hell I want.

Nobody has the right to not be offended, Muslim or otherwise.

If the Prophet Mohammed is in Paradise right now, at Allah's side with every delight as his beck and call, I very seriously doubt that he is terribly bothered what some intolerant morons half a world away from the Mid East have to say about him.

Originally posted by mideast
But mutual respect is what you are missing to look at as a goal.
Is that much ?

Why can't YOU respect that people have a right to tell the truth.
It doesn't matter if someone else doesn't like it. Truth is truth.
And Islam doesn't look good in the light of truth.

[parable]
If Christianity (a she) and Islam (a he) were a married couple and the 'she' asked how she looked to the 'he', 'he' would lie through his teeth if he thought she looked like an overweight tramp in black net stockings and a yellow mini-skirt.

If he had told her what he really thought, they'd wind up in the marriage counsillor's office talking to a Doctor of Psychology, a Rabbi Finkelstein, who has seen and heard it all before.
[/parable]

Sometimes the 'truth' is to be avoided at all costs.

Originally posted by benrl
The christian God says that if you even look at another Human with anger in your eyes you have committed murder.

That when slapped you offer the other cheek to be slapped as well.

The christian Bible also says a time of great apostasy will happen in the Church, where people will fall away from their beliefs.

The christian God says that we should not seek vengeance as it is his to deal out, not ours.

We are told that when this happens to not be discouraged but to look up, for our redemption draws near.

We do not need to retort to every mocking of our faith, of our God, or of our Savior.

More so as an American, I believe that people are free to say what ever they want, even if it makes some one else uncomfortable.

yes, you are right...BUT,.....this was written over a thousand years ago!!!....we as humans have become more tolerant of our fellow man.........why??......because we have learned to live with each other, without killing or destroying, because of what others have spoke....why??....because that's what animals or barbaric humans USED to do....we as a species have been trying to become more civilzed toward each other despite our faults.

and...it's your god, not mine...i do not believe in your god or any others...why?...because i do not want to obey or follow someone that kills people if they do not worship him...that is not a god...that is a cruel, vindictive ruler who has no control over his own emotions....therefore, he is not a god

Originally posted by mideast

1400 years ago , in between of Arabs who didn't know how to write , you see a new messenger who has read all the holy books and invented a new religion.

I buy it. -sarcasm.

Yes, it's much more likely that a warlord paedophile who went around conquering and plundering was spoken to by an invisible sky pixie who told him to take over all the world, kill all those who oppose them, lay special taxes on those non believers in their lands, and treat women like sh!t. And then if he did all those things he could have all the virgins he wanted in sky pixie land when he died.

That's far more likely to have been the case.

Originally posted by mideast

Originally posted by muse7
Don't mean to offend but

This whole thing is just childish don't you think? Why do you people care if someone makes fun of the god you worship?

This is a polite reply.

We think that we should respect each other's belief. Those disbelievers can mock prophets anytime they want. But they shouldn't do it in general entertainment and mass mind injection media tools.

There are always boundaries for freedom everywhere.

I think respect is a reasonable boundary of freedom. Specially respecting group of people.

No there is nothing that should not be questioned and examined and respect of a belief/culture is earned by that beliefs/cultures fruits. Seeking of thruth and reexamination of views and ideas is what you got that brain for from god.

Originally posted by khimbar

Originally posted by mideast


There are always boundaries for freedom everywhere.

Again, no there aren't. If there are then it isn't freedom.

Originally posted by mideast

I think respect is a reasonable boundary of freedom. Specially respecting group of people.

And some are more special than others I imagine and have to be 'protected'?

He is right there are limits to freedom. Bullying a person based on his/her view of god is not ok. You can discuss the views but you do not attack the person. Ultimate freedom is a nasty thing in practise and fortunatly people do not have it. Think anarchy where everyone decide themselves with no moral on what the want to do. Moral/higher ideals are the persons own limiter of freedom. To much freedom is no good and to little is also no good. As it normaly is the answer is between the two extremes (dualities) in the middle.

Originally posted by mideast
This thread was made to inform some people about the truth.

People better get some time to think about it instead of rushing to send replies.

+ I am getting some time to think about other's comments , myself.

There are many boundaries and limits in freedom of other aspects of life.

Social respect can be a good boundary for freedom of speech.

specially for the ones who choose to believe.

edit on 3-10-2012 by mideast because: (no reason given)

Respect

quite the double edged sword.

Freedom of speech exists to allow things to change so people can question and defy.

If we were to be forced to "Respect" no philosophy no matter how awful would ever be challenged

By your way of thought if we applied this to all belief systems i'd have to "Respect" Nambla, Nazi's and all sorts of wonderful people.

Naw... I'll take Rude. Because some people need to be treated rudely

Originally posted by Andcoulter
..we wonder why it is so easy for so many Americans specifically to attribute to 100% what less than 1% have ever done or tried to do? Then we remember how Americans do not like to leave their country or trust foreign news and it all makes sense.

Wait...you didn't just say that, did you?

Really?