Even if evolution isn't true - the evidence still exist ( that a perfect God didn't create us)

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13
reply to post by Tearman

 

Free will to 1 means you can accept or deny subjective reality? But as you stated many have their own POV of it.

edit on 10/3/12 by Ophiuchus 13 because: (no reason given)

Not sure what you mean. My spam filter can accept or deny an incoming email based on certain subjective criteria. Does it have free will?

Originally posted by Tearman

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13
reply to post by Tearman

 

Free will to 1 means you can accept or deny subjective reality? But as you stated many have their own POV of it.

edit on 10/3/12 by Ophiuchus 13 because: (no reason given)

Not sure what you mean. My spam filter can accept or deny an incoming email based on certain subjective criteria. Does it have free will?

I mean you have the ability to deny truth or accept truth, with truth = subjective reality. So you can accept there is a higher power or GOD(s) who created you and me or simply ignore and deny there is a GOD(S) at all.

Originally posted by eleven44

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by eleven44

 

To say that "I exist
but God does not,'
Would be like saying
'mountains do not exist,
only large piles of stone.'

Who first called the large piles of stone mountains?

"What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet..."

Humans make up sounds to describe the essence of objects/emotions/ideas, even if we do not understand the full essence or magnitude of what that sound describes.
A million people can have a million different ideas or attachments to what a 'mountain' is. But regardless of their interpretation, the essence of the mountain still exists.

edit on 2-10-2012 by eleven44 because: (no reason given)

****
Or, a more direct answer to your question, "Who first called the large piles of stones 'mountains'?"
The same 'person' who called the self "I" and called others "Them."

edit on 2-10-2012 by eleven44 because: (no reason given)

Yes, but humans group things according to similarities in appearance, not an essence. A pile of stones, no matter how short or high, is still, in essence, a pile of stones.

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13

Originally posted by Tearman

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13
reply to post by Tearman

 

Free will to 1 means you can accept or deny subjective reality? But as you stated many have their own POV of it.

edit on 10/3/12 by Ophiuchus 13 because: (no reason given)

Not sure what you mean. My spam filter can accept or deny an incoming email based on certain subjective criteria. Does it have free will?

I mean you have the ability to deny truth or accept truth, with truth = subjective reality. So you can accept there is a higher power or GOD(s) who created you and me or simply ignore and deny there is a GOD(S) at all.

but since we only have subjective perception, we have no access to absolute truth. Even if God himself came down to you and revealed his presence directly, you'd have no way of knowing whether it was actually god or just something that had the ability to make you think it was god.

And the very idea of something like a god, so far outside our realm of experience, suggests to me there could just as easily be things equally as weird out there, such as things that could perfectly trick us into believing they were god(s), or who knows what else. Something might come down to you today and reveal itself as a god. You could choose to either believe it or not. You could believe it with all your heart and accompanied by a sense of overwhelming conviction. Your belief and your certainty in that belief would have absolutely no bearing on whether the belief were actually true.

Some people assert as truth that there is a god and that is is perfect. I say that there is no way they could possibly know that even if both statements were true. The statements are also meaningless. Because god has no definition and perfect has no definition within this context.

If you want to have faith in these ideas, then by all means do. Don't call it truth though. It is only a matter of faith, it has always been a matter of faith, and it could never be anything other than a matter of faith.

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13
I mean you have the ability to deny truth or accept truth, with truth = subjective reality. So you can accept there is a higher power or GOD(s) who created you and me or simply ignore and deny there is a GOD(S) at all.

That works in the other direction as well:

You can accept that there is no higher power or GOD(s) that created you and me or simply ignore and deny that there are no GOD(s) at all.

So which way is the truth?

reply to post by Tearman

Originally posted by Tearman

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by madenusa

 

What if there is no free-will and we ARE being controlled just not aware of it?

Let's take a step further back still, what IS free will? Someone define it for me please. Because every description I've heard of it is meaningless.

My general definition is "The ability to make one's own choices."

Originally posted by arpgme
Think about it. Even if evolution was disproved tomorrow, that will not change the fact that skeletons of ancient forms of humans still exist. If God is perfect and knows everything, why would he need to experiment with different forms of humans for a certain length of time before creating them as they should be? Shouldn't he have gotten it right the first time?

What makes you think God did experiment? What did he get wrong? If we're dealing with God, would the physical vessel, for which the soul is residing in, be important?

Also, there are many forms of humans which would mean that "God" would have had to experiment quite a few times on these many different forms of humans...

I'm not following your logic. Are you claiming there is a pre-homo sapien populous God did experiments on? If so, why do you conclude they were experimented on?

If the bible is true, why wasn't this mentioned?

If this is not in the Bible, does it make the Bible untrue? Let's pretend for a minute, everything your pointing out is true. Let's also pretend we know for a fact this truth is not presented in the Bible. Now, why are we all of a sudden making the leap, that this somehow would invalidate the Bible?

What type of human was Adam and Eve? All of this is just speculation. The obvious answer is that we need more research not just "God did it".

Now, I think I'm starting to understand. You think all people who believe in God say, "God did it" only when confronted with uncertainty.

This is an argument of ignorance

It would be if they only said that when confronted with life's great mysteries.

because for any question in the world people can say "God did it". Imagine if someone said "How does rain happen" and that say "God did it" instead of doing the RESEARCH and actually learning about the rain cycle of precipitation, evaporation, condensation.... we would still be living in the dark ages...

You can be humbled by things you do not understand, but there are not very many people who just throw up their hands, when confronted with a mystery, and say "God did it".
I believe in God.
I believe in the Christian God.
I believe God did everything, so I'm not gonna stop saying "God did it" just because I'm confronted with a puzzle.
Usually Christian scientists would say "God did it", then go on to investigate and explain what they think God did.
One's belief in God isn't usually based on fear of the unknown, but personal truth they believe enlightened their soul.

I'm not saying that there is no God, or even there is no God that created the universe, but I highly doubt a PERFECT God would need to experiment with so many differen forms of humans like this.

Hey you may be right, but making up your own idea of God just to dispell him sounds counterproductive. Let's be serious. Could you possibly be atheist because there were early human's? Early human's you think were experimented on by God.

"God did it"

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by Tearman

 

Originally posted by Tearman

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by madenusa

 

What if there is no free-will and we ARE being controlled just not aware of it?

Let's take a step further back still, what IS free will? Someone define it for me please. Because every description I've heard of it is meaningless.

My general definition is "The ability to make one's own choices."

Okay. Then a computer program has free will through if/then and switch statements.

reply to post by Tearman


That's not a choice, it's pre-programmed flow control.

reply to post by arpgme

I'm not saying that there is no God, or even there is no God that created the universe, but I highly doubt a PERFECT God would need to experiment with so many differen forms of humans like this.

Lets say God did create man. Immediately comes the question who is or what is God. If humans can see that humans are not perfect then it stands to reason this is evidence God isnt perfect. If God isnt perfect it implies hes not really a super God more like a Demi God. If hes a Demi God then it stands to reason hes using a form of technology to do his magic. All roads of logic point to God being a Alien.

And who was Jesus? He was a anomaly.

reply to post by LesMisanthrope


We believe we group things
only because we perceive them as separate things.

To see the wholeness, the oneness...
that is to understand the Great Picture.

Originally posted by AthlonSavage
reply to post by arpgme

 

I'm not saying that there is no God, or even there is no God that created the universe, but I highly doubt a PERFECT God would need to experiment with so many differen forms of humans like this.

Lets say God did create man. Immediately comes the question who is or what is God. If humans can see that humans are not perfect then it stands to reason this is evidence God isnt perfect. If God isnt perfect it implies hes not really a super God more like a Demi God. If hes a Demi God then it stands to reason hes using a form of technology to do his magic. All roads of logic point to God being a Alien.

And who was Jesus? He was a anomaly.

edit on 4-10-2012 by AthlonSavage because: (no reason given)

Really? Who are you (or am I) to say what is imperfect?
If the world is the only way it can be: Then it is perfect.
If God has created this realm for our souls to explore, learn, experience (yes, both the 'negative' and painful as well as the beauty and the love) then this world is perfect.

That doesn't mean it can't change and 'become better.'
It is very shortsighted to assume that perfection is stagnant.

Originally posted by daskakik

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13
I mean you have the ability to deny truth or accept truth, with truth = subjective reality. So you can accept there is a higher power or GOD(s) who created you and me or simply ignore and deny there is a GOD(S) at all.

That works in the other direction as well:

You can accept that there is no higher power or GOD(s) that created you and me or simply ignore and deny that there are no GOD(s) at all.

So which way is the truth?

The way I wrote it describes how you rewrote it also to show it goes both ways?

Originally posted by john_bmth
reply to post by Tearman

 

That's not a choice, it's pre-programmed flow control.

Of course I knew someone would say this. The programmer doesn't make the choices, he sets up the way the choices are made. Just as the laws of physics set up the way our choices are made. And here's something that might get you thinking: not all computer programs are designed at all, some are "grown" through an evolutionary process, which makes use of random mutations.

Originally posted by eleven44

Originally posted by AthlonSavage
reply to post by arpgme

 

I'm not saying that there is no God, or even there is no God that created the universe, but I highly doubt a PERFECT God would need to experiment with so many differen forms of humans like this.

Lets say God did create man. Immediately comes the question who is or what is God. If humans can see that humans are not perfect then it stands to reason this is evidence God isnt perfect. If God isnt perfect it implies hes not really a super God more like a Demi God. If hes a Demi God then it stands to reason hes using a form of technology to do his magic. All roads of logic point to God being a Alien.

And who was Jesus? He was a anomaly.

edit on 4-10-2012 by AthlonSavage because: (no reason given)

Really? Who are you (or am I) to say what is imperfect?
If the world is the only way it can be: Then it is perfect.
If God has created this realm for our souls to explore, learn, experience (yes, both the 'negative' and painful as well as the beauty and the love) then this world is perfect.

That doesn't mean it can't change and 'become better.'
It is very shortsighted to assume that perfection is stagnant.

edit on 4-10-2012 by eleven44 because: (no reason given)

Well seems like a kind of arbitrary definition of perfection to me. So why call it that at all? Also, how could you possibly know those things were true?

Even if evolution isn't true - the evidence still exist ( that a perfect God didn't create us)

I agree with the title of this thread, and I think God states in the bible that he is not perfect either. Not in those "exact words" though.

First let me preface my reply by stating that I do believe in God, I am not an athiest.

In my opinion, the Op is making the correct statement, but is not using the right proof. I am going to simplify the bible stories that everyone already knows that has read the bible, to not have to quote endless scriptures to back up what I am going to say.

The " Area of Proof " that God is not perfect, is when God tells us about how he created the angels. Everyone has heard this story, there are even endless movies cranked out by hollywood every year. The fallen angel lucifer or satan is the main proof that God is not perfect. To create or make many angels in antiquity, "God only knows when" and for one of these angels that God made to rebel against God, that shows an " Imperfect Creation " of an angel.

An all knowing, and an all seeing God, who " Knows The Future " could Easily have seen or known that lucifer was " Not Perfect. " For a " Perfect God " to make or create an " Imperfect Creation " shows that God is not perfect.

Of course any of us could take the stance, that God did this on purpose and his ways are above our ways, and his thoughts are above our thoughts etc. etc. etc. We are all capable of making Endless Excuses for God, as to why God did this.

Or, maybe God just likes " Entertainment " you know, like the way we humans like to See Entertainment. Like how the ancient Romans really liked to watch the christians and the poor and helpless being thrown to the lions and various other wild beasts in the Coliseum in Rome.

And of course not to only blame the ancient Romans for brutal, insane slaughter of people, look at our " Modern Wars " and how insane and senseless they all are till this day. Yes, we're all right up there with the Ancient Romans today with the worlds militaries endless wars of slaughter of the innocent.

You see, we all think that we really know what God is like, or what God likes, but the brutal examples that history teaches us about what " God " has allowed to happen on this planet beggers the mind of any thinking person to say that they " Really Know God "

If God is " Perfect " How could a " Perfect God " make an Imperfect angel ??? And / Or - maybe the real question here is - " Why " would God make an Imperfect angel ???

This is just one Example in the Bible that is admitted by God about one of his " Imperfect Acts ".

Since we are talking about " God " in this thread, Why would " God " like or want " Gold " ??? and Why would God tell Adam in the first book of the bible about Gold ??? and God even says that " the Gold is Good " Why is the gold good ?

Why would Adam and Eve even want or need gold ??? Gold is very Heavy like Lead. Adam can't eat the gold, or does God want Adam to make himself a nice new shiny Rolex watch??? Come on, what's this Fascination by " God " with " Gold " ??? Does an Infinite and an All Wise God like Shiny Gold watches and rings...??? What's with Gods interest in gold ???

Is Sitchin's interpretation of the ancient Sumerian clay tablets beginning to make any sense here....?

What is the real bottom line story here on this planet earth? Entertainment ? Gold ? Love ? Endless Wars ?

I am mentioning all of this, just to show that there is something going on, that none of us really understands, even though there are many who think that they really do understand. Even though there are Endless Believers in " The God of Creation " world wide, and Endless Religions world wide, do any of us " Really Know " what the " The Real Game Is " ??? Could the Real Game be just the shiny gold....?

Yes, we Christians here in America all say, Oh Yeah, We Know All about " God " , and of course All of the Muslims in the Middle East and around the world say the Exact same thing. All of the people in all of the nations of the world all say that " They Know God " and that " Their God " is " The Real God " ! ! !

Surely I am not the only " Believer In God " to see these " Obvious Discrepancies in A Perfect God "

Also, all throughout the bible the general theme seems to be, that " God " is still catching up, and is still trying to " correct his creation " and all the while using man to play out the story on a " Grand Stage " like an endless Shakespearian Play.

Wow, talk about endless fascinationg brutal entertainment...

These are just a few of the reasons that I agree with the title in this Op's Thread ! S & F

Thank you for bringing this subject up. I have recently been contemplating starting a similar titled thread myself.

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13
The way I wrote it describes how you rewrote it also

to show it goes both ways?

edit on 10/4/12 by Ophiuchus 13 because: (no reason given)

No, the way you wrote it is "a higher power or God(s) exist = truth. You are free to accept or ignore.

The way I wrote it is "a higher power or God(s) do not exist = truth. You are free to accept or ignore.

In one the existence is truth and in the other the non existence is truth. That's the reason for the question.

reply to post by Tearman


What is your definition of imperfect?

I'm not saying nothing can be made better, but it is perfectly made the way it is, so that we learn from this experience that we WANT (using our God given freewill) to make the World better. Everything was perfectly where it needed to be in order to get you to take action to spread the light and help end others suffering.
And, in the meantime, those of us who are still suffering (sinning/removing ourselves from communion with God) are learning from our sins. Our souls are learning. We chose to be here. We chose this experience. We chose it for our soul because we knew it would be exactly what we needed to grow.

Originally posted by eleven44
reply to post by Tearman

 

What is your definition of imperfect?

I'm not saying nothing can be made better, but it is perfectly made the way it is, so that we learn from this experience that we WANT (using our God given freewill) to make the World better. Everything was perfectly where it needed to be in order to get you to take action to spread the light and help end others suffering.
And, in the meantime, those of us who are still suffering (sinning/removing ourselves from communion with God) are learning from our sins. Our souls are learning. We chose to be here. We chose this experience. We chose it for our soul because we knew it would be exactly what we needed to grow.

edit on 4-10-2012 by eleven44 because: (no reason given)

That sort of sounds like something is perfect if it does what it is doing. Why should we believe it is "perfect" that god should want to do this in the first place? See why it sounds arbitrary to me?

And how could you know that these things are true? That there are souls on a learning journey for some unknown reason, or that this setup is by all possible measures the best of all possible solutions? Seems like impossible knowledge to me.

reply to post by arpgme


Maybe the point is not to be perfect on the first try. Maybe Source is learning something through all of this. When something is omniscient and omnipotent and omnipresent, there is one thing left to learn: what it's like to be finite, weak, and singular. And when you become that, suddenly a plethora of doors open. There's so much to learn from that vantage point.

Hence, us.