The lost sheep of the house of Israel

And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Mat 15)

.................

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Mat 10)

Theres been a lot of talk about Jesus being Jewish on our forums lately... I will neither confirm nor deny that he was, but rather leave you to your own thoughts on the issue.

In two passages Jesus mentioned that he came to the lost sheep of Israel as shown above...

I've been thinking about this idea recently, and i've been led to the conclusion that these "lost sheep" were the members of the existing religion, that being Judaism.

He regularly spoke out about many of the traditions of the elders, for example washing hands/dishes, Dietary laws, and even some of the major tenants of the faith such as animal sacrifices.

Now also considering my stance on the God of the OT (those that know of my threads will understand) I am of the opinion that Jesus was saying... "I came to reform the beliefs of those of the jewish faith, and show them the true God who they do not know or understand"

Before we open this discussion i would like to specifically state...

i am not against those of the Jewish faith... Your beliefs are your own, and you are free to believe whatever you will...

So the questions for this discussion are as follows

1. Who were the lost sheep of Israel in your opinion?

2. Why did Jesus come to them?

3. Why were they lost according to Jesus?

Discuss rationally please

reply to post by Akragon

1. Who were the lost sheep of Israel in your opinion?
2. Why did Jesus come to them?
3. Why were they lost according to Jesus?

Even though God brought the Israelites out of Egypt, they kept going back to worshiping other gods and idols.

Jesus was sent to them to preach "the gospel of the kingdom" and what the requirements were for entering into it.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Akragon

 

1. Who were the lost sheep of Israel in your opinion?
2. Why did Jesus come to them?
3. Why were they lost according to Jesus?

Even though God brought the Israelites out of Egypt, they kept going back to worshiping other gods and idols.

Jesus was sent to them to preach "the gospel of the kingdom" and what the requirements were for entering into it.

So you're suggesting the religion that spawned from the Torah and the books of the OT were actually incorrect?

Originally posted by Akragon
So you're suggesting the religion that spawned from the Torah and the books of the OT were actually incorrect?
:

No, that's not what he said.
The religion was right, but the people themselves were wandering away from it (partly by missing the point, according to the complaints of Jesus).
Hence the "lost sheep" metaphor, and the idea of the shepherd who brings them back.

reply to post by DISRAELI


IF the religion was correct...

What was the point of creating another religion on the back of the innital one if it was already the right path?

reply to post by Akragon

Neither Jesus nor the early church thought of it as a "new religion".
They thought of it as a continuation and fulfilment of the original.
The original adherents had lost their way somewhat, new adherents had stepped into the breach.
See, for example, the discussion in Romans ch11.

reply to post by Akragon


To answer your questions.

1. Who were the lost sheep of Israel in your opinion?

Per the prophesies of Genesis 48 and 49 what was supposed to happen is that the tribes of Israel were to become a multitude of nations. The reason why was to fulfill the earlier promises to Abraham about him being the salvation to all the families of the world.

Genesis 18
18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

2. Why did Jesus come to them?

The Leviticus 26 covenant. In it God makes an agreement with the Israelites with Moses to protect and care for them if they follow the laws given to Moses. And it is a binding agreement upon their descendants until the end of the world. Part of the problem here is then the Genesis 48 and 49 prophesies. The world is supposed to be filled with Israelites by the time of the end. The religion had to follow the people.

Also what should be mentioned with Genesis 48 and 49 is the Romans 11 olive tree parable. Simplified it means that Christians are adopted Israelites. Irregardless of genetics.

3. Why were they lost according to Jesus?

Quite simply the problem was this prophesy in Malachi 4.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

And this.
Matthew 17.
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

The first century Jews triggered this curse of Malachi. And after figuring out the details it turns out to be this.

According to the book of Hosea and the day of Jezreel prophesy they triggered a 2000 year top level Leviticus 26 curse. And If you look at the history of the past 2000 years it certainly looks like they have been serving it.


So the simple answer to your questions is that the Israelites were to scatter to all the corners of the world and conquer the world through genetics. And the religion had to be updated a bit in order for it to follow them.

Okay i'll bite, heh. Even though my knowledge of the OT isn't all that fabulous, which is considerable seeing as how much time i've spent reading passages in it.

1. Who were the lost sheep of Israel in your opinion?

Honestly i have no idea. From Ethopia, to Europe, to some Black Americans damn near everyone and anyone has a claim to be that lost tribe. But how is "lost" used in that context. Lost as in can't find directions and they don't know where they are, lost as in i can't figure out this math problem, or or lost as in they turned away from God. Looking at the world i would say option 3 is more along the lines of what we are looking at. Now the question comes down to who? My answer is everyone who turned away from God. Seeing as how we are all related anyways and our lineage means absolutely squat when we stand before him/her no need to get caught up in semantics with the OT, it'll only bring headaches.

2. Why did Jesus come to them?

To save them from themselves evidently. Jews back in those days (in the OT exclusively) weren't the sharpest knives in the kitchen, i think critical thinking was skipped during classes (sarcasm). Is he saving them from the unholy lake of lava, the boogie man in the closet, sky high interest rates, i dunno. But for some reason he choose that group. Indoctrine indeed. But what can you say since it's their religion. Of course they are going to set themselves up as the chosen ones. I'm always cautious of anyone of anything that will single out one group as "special" or "holy". We all come from the same mother so one person is not that special at all. Very few people are special and i reserve that connotation for the likes of Jesus. Muhammad, Buddha, MLK, JFK, and the such. We make ourselves special in what we do.

3. Why were they lost according to Jesus?

That always got to me. You would think with a history steeped in religious doctrine and history that they wouldn't need a superhero to validate themselves but there you go. If one has a religion setup to recognize a special someone and you just ignore all that dogma, your pretty hard headed and arrogant.

If you read between the lines, then it comes out that the Jews aren't a special group they are normal humans just like us. Remember when Moses went to get the ten commandants and they already started worshiping a false idol. I'm like damn! For a group of people singled out to save or lead mankind, they sure are.. dumb. Their man is gone for a short while and bam everything falls apart. What's the point in doing it at all if they are going to revert back to their previous mindset once you set foot out the door.

So to answer that question, they were lost because they are like us, human and they aren't a special kind of special. Looking around at the world today, i can easily see how that Moses and the ten commandments parable works. Look at American society and what is idolized today. We create our idols based on appearance, just like the Jews did.

That help?