A Muhammad Cartoon A Day

reply to post by wuforde


this is in response to my deleted post. Asking why people should be killed b/c they are offended vs people killing people b/c of abortion and a link to abortion videos. The mods should read before they delete.

reply to post by Hefficide

I've been watching these threads now for four solid years waiting to see the words "You do realize that by exercising OUR freedom of speech we're trampling on THEIR freedom to believe what they believe".

Actually speaking up freely does not trample their freedom to believe, they are free to believe, but not free to stifle the free speech of others. And having to live with everyone speaking up freely is what freedom means. Even if your favorite belief is being criticized or mocked.

Such is life!

However, there is something that needs to be brought up, and that is, what does a person with kindness and integrity do, when expressing why they are disturbed by the theocracy or fascism or abusiveness of another system of belief. I don't think its kind or good hearted to childishly and rudely attack (on a daily/weekly basis), however sometimes satire and mocking things, political and socio economic, religious cartoons can go in and nail something where a 2000 word essay can't. Same with a video/movie.

There is a difference between occasional emergence of shock appeal, to stir the pot, and "a cartoon a day" which is just meanness.

reply to post by Blackmarketeer


A) Christians have repeatedly and vocally denounced and protested against the abortion bombers. There are almost as many denouncing protests as there are anti-abortion protests, and even the regular anti-abortionists condemn those attacks.

B)The difference between the instigations is that one is reacting to murder, the other is reacting to words and pictures. Whole different ballgame.

reply to post by Hefficide

But what folks seem to lose track of, for some reason, is the same amendment, the FIRST amendment also grants freedom of religion. Now we have conflict. Which right has more merit? Both speech and religion are the most sincere and deepest forms of self expression. Does one trump the other?

Nope, there is no conflict at all. It simply means people should be free to insult a religion, and free to exercise their religion. Do you see any conflict or any trumping that needs to be done? Because I dont.

Originally posted by Hefficide

I've been watching these threads now for four solid years waiting to see the words "You do realize that by exercising OUR freedom of speech we're trampling on THEIR freedom to believe what they believe".

~Heff

No, we are not "trampling on THEIR freedom to believe what they believe". They can believe anything they want. So can we.

The issue is whether we are allowed to criticize what they believe.

Radical Muslims believe we are not, under threat of death.

Radical Muslims Threaten South Park Creators In the Name of Allah

Mohammed Cartoonist Defies Death Threats, Ax Attack

Iran reissues fatwa on Salman Rushdie as film protests spread

Probably a new addition at Skull and Bones.

my reply

is here

Originally posted by The Old American

A Muhammad Cartoon A Day

I don't usually post things from Fox News (I don't even visit their website), but I got this article from a friend, so I thought I'd post it here for ATS. It could be an interesting social experiment. Even the most extreme person gets "overstimulated" by their obsession and can lose interest.

Perhaps if people showed the extremists that we're tired of their bullying and aren't afraid of them, they'd go away.

/TOA

Comeon people you are all getting played. Daniel Pipes, author of the above article, is just a shill.

Who is David Pipes:

Daniel Pipes was born in Boston, Massachusetts, in 1949.His parents were Polish Jews who had each fled German-occupied Poland, and met in the United States.

In 1990, Pipes wrote in the National Review that "Western European societies are unprepared for the massive immigration of brown-skinned peoples cooking strange foods and maintaining different standards of hygiene

Through his Middle East Forum, Pipes fund-raised for the Dutch politician Geert Wilders during his trial, according to NRC Handelsblad.Pipes himself praised Wilders in January 2010 as "the unrivaled leader of those Europeans who wish to retain their historic [European] identity."

According to The New York Times, Pipes has "enraged" many American Muslims by advocating that Muslims in government and military positions be given special attention as security risks and by opining that mosques are "breeding grounds for militants."[33] In an article entitled "Japanese Internment: Why It Was a Good Idea--And the Lessons It Offers Today", Pipes endorsed a defense of the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II, and linked the Japanese-American wartime situation to that of Muslim Americans today.

In October, 2001 Pipes said, before the convention of the American Jewish Congress. "I worry very much, from the Jewish point of view, that the presence, and increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of American Muslims, because they are so much led by an Islamist leadership, that this will present true dangers to American Jews."

n addition, Pipes sparked a controversy when he was invited to speak at the University of Toronto in March 2005. A letter from professors, staff and students asserted that Pipes had a "long record of xenophobic, racist and sexist speech that goes back to 1990."

On his own website and in articles for The Jerusalem Post, Pipes claimed that Barack Obama was a former Muslim. He alleged that Obama falsely claims that he had never been a Muslim, and that "the campaign appears to be either ignorant or fabricating when it states that Obama never prayed in a mosque.

In 2002 and 2003, Pipes was a strong backer of the Iraq War, saying that Saddam Hussein posed an "imminent threat" to the United States

All this freedom of speech debate lately has nothing to do with freedom of speech yet everything to do with divide and conquer. It's clearly that David Pipes has an agenda, to fan the flames of ignorance and prejudice.

Im all for freedom of speech and cartoons, but i oppose all the small fascists that have come up to the surface and are sphewing their hate wrapped up in romantic tales about free speech.

Wake up !

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
reply to post by 00nunya00

 

How about when they bomb clinics or kill doctors? The Ku Klux Klan best represents one form of Christian terrorism, burning a cross to demonstrate reverence for Christ;

Christian terrorism

They were explicitly Christian terrorist in ideology, basing their beliefs on a "religious foundation" in Christianity.[64] The goals of the KKK included, from an early time on, an intent to "reestablish Protestant Christian values in America by any means possible," and believe that "Jesus was the first Klansman."[65] Their cross-burnings were conducted not only to intimidate targets, but to demonstrate their respect and reverence for Jesus Christ, and the lighting ritual was steeped in Christian symbolism, including the saying of prayers and singing of Christian hymns.[66] Many modern Klan organizations, such as the Knights Party, USA, continue to
focus on the Christian supremacist message, asserting that there is a "war" on to destroy "western Christian civilization."

This doesn't begin to touch the bombings of clinics and murders of doctors.

Sure these types of Christians don't issue "fatwas" in the modern sense, although some Christians faiths do issue "Blood Atonement" (Mormons), murder condoned by the Church. So please, spare us the "Christians are superior" hokum, Islam and Christians (and Judaism) are exactly alike.

One thing to distinguish, is that the United States government doesn't issue such proclamations as Fatwas or encourage the sort of Christian terrorism practiced by KKK and that ilk - that has as much to do with the separation of Church and State, a guiding principle of our foundation. Iran's government and it's religion are one and the same, which makes such proclamations more dangerous. Imagine if the KKK or some of these other extremist Evangelical groups were also the government here, then you would be seeing how radical a merger of
Church and State could be.

Let's have a competition, since all of these groups are alike. Starting today, we will tally how many people are killed, and by which faith as their motivating factor. I will be nice and take the Christians, Mormons, and Jews. You get the Muslims. Whoever's number is the highest by Friday wins, and has to delete their ATS account, never posting again.

reply to post by The Old American

Muslim extremists have no respect for God , ... or life
Their recent protests have killed a lot of fellow Muslims .
so they are really shooting themselves in their clay feet ,
and the world wonders where this might end .

Originally posted by kingofmd


Let's have a competition, since all of these groups are alike. Starting today, we will tally how many people are killed, and by which faith as their motivating factor. I will be nice and take the Christians, Mormons, and Jews. You get the Muslims. Whoever's number is the highest by Friday wins, and has to delete their ATS account, never posting again.

Technically, you can't take both Christians and Jews since the Jews are the ones the Christians killed the most of.... just sayin...

Hitler was Christian, killed a LOT of Jews in the Holocaust, so you'll probably lose the bet you've made.


....then there were the holy wars of the middle ages, downright ugly there....

Extremists of any religion are dangerous, they are terrorists as they kill others in the name of their belief system. The difference is, those Christians who did that aren't "real Christians" in my book, neither are all the ultra-right wing bigots, but they sure do claim to be.
Most Muslims wouldn't consider their terrorists as representing their religion either, it's just the opposing side that does.

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
If and when this is done to Christians, do you also think "it's about time we stood up to those Christian bullies"? Or does it become, "why are they always picking on Christians"? Or "Christians/Christianity under attack" - which we see so many thread about lately.

You're singling out the extremists in Islam to justify showing intolerance to their religion. Intolerance bcreeds intolerance.

edit on 2-10-2012 by Blackmarketeer because: (no reason given)

Christians are regularly disrespected by the left in America and by Hollywood and cable TV. None of you Islamic apologists ever has a thing to say about that. So please, spare me your fake outrage. It's transparent.

This is about standing up to people who use violence to bully others. IF you don't like standing up to Islamic bullies, than just go to a mosque and convert now please.

Originally posted by Hefficide

I've been watching these threads now for four solid years waiting to see the words "You do realize that by exercising OUR freedom of speech we're trampling on THEIR freedom to believe what they believe".

I've yet to see that post. If it ever happened, I missed it.

America has learned this strange distortion of the word "freedom" so that it now means "You are free to do what we say and you'll call it freedom and you'll like it or we'll bomb you".

That's not freedom. That's extremism, totalitarianism, despotism, and value projection.

Free means free - not just free to agree with what we say.

~Heff

I like how you didn't post that in my thread aha.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
You know, the one analysis I don't see is of who is riling up these essentially ignorant masses.

I delved into that with this thread, Clash of Civilizations or Politically Manufactured Rage? but not many are eager to discuss the CORE of the problem. They buzz around the periphery, hating and fearing, spinning themselves into a childish frenzy, without ever thinking to examine WHO BENEFITS in all this craziness.

We are being used as pawns in a political game that most refuse to acknowledge. They think it's about religion. And American Christians are just as hoodwinked and guilty as the Muslim fanatic extremists of playing along to keep the rage and fear going... It's a fantastic control mechanism! The divide and conquer works within a country AS WELL AS within religious belief. If you can manipulate what the people hold dear, you can control them with it.

If we all realized just how USED we are in this fight, we could just STOP and it would be over.

What if someone drew a Mohammad cartoon and nobody came?

Or what if someone pissed on Christ and no one responded?

This whole attitude of, "Well they did it FIRST"! or "If they can do it, we can do it"! :shk: It's about the most childish and insecure behavior I can imagine! Who gives a flying fig if someone "insults" your religion? Is your religion about how others behave? Does your religion depend on others respecting it? And most importantly, Is your standard of behavior based on what some extremist in another country THINKS??? Give me a break!

Sometimes, people baffle me completely.

This whole thing is ridiculous.

I back any publication that prints these 'cartoons' and long should we keep publishing them whilst we are being told that we shouldn't.

Firstly the vast majority of us in the West aren't Muslims so we aren't held accountable to the Laws of Islam.

Secondly religion shouldn't demand or dictate the way any non-believers live their lives, according their own religious beliefs.

Their whole reaction is petty, considering the greater evils done 'in the name of Islam' within their own back yard.

Keep publishing!

reply to post by Hefficide


Pretty much. Because America is all about the freedom of "Free to say what you want as long as it's what i want to hear".

How many times have Christians been offended by a promo or billboard. And then you have the so called "logical" atheist mocking the Christians pissing them off, it's crazy.

Americans of today don't have freedom just merely an illusion. But then again freedom only existed in the country for a short amount of time if at all. Lemme see.... nope. Never had it, heh.

So wtf are these idiots running around obviously offended the Islamic faith for? Oh it's alright for them to tinkle in someone else's cornflakes but when the shoe is on another foot then we got problems? How hypocritical.

Everythings just got to be one giant pissing contest, hasn't it?

No one should be pissing on anyone, that only add's the proverbial fuel to the fire, I'm spiritual (just began my journey), but have never seen the appeal of conformist religion, Christianity, Judaism, Islam.... The funny thing is: They are ALL barking up the SAME tree, but mauling each other at the bottom whilst the cat looks on in amusement.

Now, I'm not innocent, I make the occasional Jesus or Allah joke, and the Jew jokes are endless, but its only for my own slight ammusment, I'd never *really* want to offend these people.

My family are Roman Catholics, and I stood in the town center for nearly 2 bloody hours the other month allowing an Islamic preacher to convert me to Islam!! It was just an education tour for my self, although he was pretty pleased I stayed there that long aha.

It took 1 hour ro recognise the difference from Islam AND Christianity, I was quite ammused.

I had absolutely no issues with it untill the end and he "Our God tells us what to wear"...

At that point I sighed and left.

But seriously, we have Islamic extremists here, peeing us off, but we counteract that with the blooming EDL!!

Both sides suck ass.

I try to ignore it, as its the government stirring it. The fact is, we should be acting oblivious to it all.. Like trying to train a dog or child about bad behaviour.. Ignore it and they'll soon give up.

reply to post by Sinny

I had absolutely no issues with it untill the end and he "Our God tells us what to wear"... At that point I sighed and left.

Lol Sinny.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by JohnnyCanuck

 

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
You know, the one analysis I don't see is of who is riling up these essentially ignorant masses.

I delved into that with this thread, Clash of Civilizations or Politically Manufactured Rage? but not many are eager to discuss the CORE of the problem.

They buzz around the periphery, hating and fearing, spinning themselves into a childish frenzy, without ever thinking to examine WHO BENEFITS in all this craziness.

We are being used as pawns in a political game that most refuse to acknowledge. They think it's about religion. And American Christians are just as hoodwinked and guilty as the Muslim fanatic extremists of playing along to keep the rage and fear going... It's a fantastic control mechanism! The divide and conquer works within a country AS WELL AS within religious belief. If you can manipulate what the people hold dear, you can control them with it.

If we all realized just how USED we are in this fight, we could just STOP and it would be over.

What if someone drew a Mohammad cartoon and nobody came?

Or what if someone pissed on Christ and no one responded?

This whole attitude of, "Well they did it FIRST"! or "If they can do it, we can do it"! :shk: It's about the most childish and insecure behavior I can imagine! Who gives a flying fig if someone "insults" your religion? Is your religion about how others behave? Does your religion depend on others respecting it? And most importantly, Is your standard of behavior based on what some extremist in another country THINKS??? Give me a break!

Sometimes, people baffle me completely.

This is so true. We really need to realize when we are being played like pieces in a board game.
Who stands to BENEFIT FROM THE INSANITY?

To prevent any discussion of a Palestinian State, I think some violent extremist Israel's are itching to start a war and to involve the USA in it. ...which even if they start it themselves, we are duty bound to back them up.