The Limits Of Probability

reply to post by Miccey


Because when you have an infinite amount of space or an infinite amount of time, the unlikely becomes almost certain.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
Well maybe the Universe isn't infinite you say?

It's not "maybe." The universe is positively not infinite in its size, because it came to exist about 13.7 billion years ago and not infinitely many years ago. Of course, the space through which the universe is expanding is another question. That space didn't come to exist through some Big Bang and so it could possibly represent physical infinity. No one knows if there are other universes similar to ours in that space and that precludes the question how many, which, in turn, effectively stops any speculation on the incidence of intelligent life in that space.

reply to post by tremex

No one knows if there are other universes similar to ours in that space

Of course no one knows. But it's fairly obvious if our Universe can exist than so can others. And if space is infinite and there are an infinite amount of other Universes out there, then one is "almost certainly" bound to be exactly like ours. But then again I'm not so sure about that logic anymore.. read through the thread and see where we are at.

And by the way... if we define "Universe" as all of space-time, and not just energy from the Big Bang expanding through space time, and then we assume space-time is infinite, then we can say the Universe is infinite.

Mathematicians will disagree with your logic (in the OP). That's because not all infinities are equal; they have different cardinalities. There are countable sets and uncountable sets. For example, the cardinality of the set of real numbers is greater than that of the rational numbers. Even though there are infinite rational numbers, they account for only an infinitesimal subset of the real numbers. Similarly, the set of possible planets may have greater cardinality than the set planets that exist in an infinite universe. Conceivably, if there exists an infinity of infinite universes, then one of them might contain a planet identical to ours.

It depends on how many dimensions of infinity there are. Are the three spacial dimensions and the time dimension infinitely long and infinitely divisible? Are there infinite possible branches of history at every infinitesimal point in space and time? Does every possible future except one cease to exist as soon as it becomes the past? Does the universe have infinite dimensions?

Fractal sets have fractional cardinality. For example, a fractal set might have one third as many members as the set of real numbers. I believe the universe is a fractal.

I don't think it can be proven, but I believe our universe is infinite, and yet it doesn't contain two identical things.

reply to post by Phractal Phil

I believe our universe is infinite, and yet it doesn't contain two identical things.

But it does have identical things. Maybe not identical humans... but it has identical things, smaller things.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


Two electrons may appear to be identical, except for where they are located, to the extent we can measure them. If space and time are infinitely divisible, there may be internal variations between them. Those internal variations may be the source of Heisenberg uncertainty.

Quantization has very precise bounds, but the precision is not infinite. In my own model, every species of fundamental particle is a strange attractor in a chaotic mix of regular energy and dark energy. Particles have half lives because tiny internal fluctuations can eventually tip their energy into a different strange attractor.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by tremex

 

No one knows if there are other universes similar to ours in that space

Of course no one knows. But it's fairly obvious if our Universe can exist than so can others. And if space is infinite and there are an infinite amount of other Universes out there, then one is "almost certainly" bound to be exactly like ours. But then again I'm not so sure about that logic anymore.. read through the thread and see where we are at.

And by the way... if we define "Universe" as all of space-time, and not just energy from the Big Bang expanding through space time, and then we assume space-time is infinite, then we can say the Universe is infinite.

edit on 3/10/2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)

It's not really that obvious as you think it is. It's tempting to draw analogies, but they don't have to be correct.

If you define things certain way, make several assumptions and proceed consistently, then you can logically prove almost anything to the amusement of others who can follow. But logical assumptions and scientific assumptions don't sleep in the same bedroom even though they live in the same house.

The term "space time" relates to our universe and not to the space that the universe is expanding into. Since our universe isn't infinite in size, it's difficult to see the base for the assumption that space time is infinite. Space time refers to the environment where a point is defined with the help of 3 coordinates where time is considered the 4th coordinate/dimension. That really helps with writing down various equations based on the theory of relativity. Time depends on the existence of detectable matter that moves in predictable and consistent way, like the earth, for example. In relation to the sun, you can derive a time unit called "day." So in the space void of any matter, time doesn't really exist.

reply to post by tremex

So in the space void of any matter, time doesn't really exist.

False. And that's all I have to say about that.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by tremex

 

So in the space void of any matter, time doesn't really exist.

False. And that's all I have to say about that.

lol. Thats all i have to say about this...


but actually i will also say.,.,,.,. why is it thought that time does not exist within a black hole? does it have something to do with matter ( as we know it) not existing in a black hole?

i

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by tremex

 

So in the space void of any matter, time doesn't really exist.

False. And that's all I have to say about that.

lol. Thats all i have to say about this...

It's not "lol. Thats all i have to say about this..." and neither is "False. And that's all I have to say about that." It's "Shrimp. And that's all I have to say about that."

but actually i will also say.,.,,.,. why is it thought that time does not exist within a black hole? does it have something to do with matter ( as we know it) not existing in a black hole?

It's on the contrary. There is a type of black hole called a supermassive black hole. That's because it contains more matter than ordinary black hole. And since where is matter there must be time, the thought that time is absent there is wrong. But since the gravitational influences in the black hole are enormous, time ticks away very slowly. It's more convenient to quote an astronomer on the issue:
"It is a bit misleading to say that 'time stands still' inside a black hole. Actually, if you could survive a trip into a black hole (which you couldn't) you would not be aware of any slowing down of any clock you carried as you fell in. However, if you could compare the speed of your clock with that of a reference clock kept far away, then then the clock falling into the black hole would appear to slow down relative to the clock far from the hole. The place where the falling in clock would appear to 'stop' is the spherical surface called the event horizon. This is also regarded as the boundary of the black hole, since nothing crossing this surface can escape. For more information, look at the entries for event horizon on our web page:"
imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov...

reply to post by john_bmth

. Likewise, If I keep rolling an infinite amount of times I will almost surely get a 6 but again, it's still not a certainty

It is a certainty if you could roll an infinite amount of dice at the same time...

Originally posted by tremex

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by tremex

 

So in the space void of any matter, time doesn't really exist.

False. And that's all I have to say about that.

lol. Thats all i have to say about this...

It's not "lol. Thats all i have to say about this..." and neither is "False. And that's all I have to say about that." It's "Shrimp. And that's all I have to say about that."

but actually i will also say.,.,,.,. why is it thought that time does not exist within a black hole? does it have something to do with matter ( as we know it) not existing in a black hole?

It's on the contrary. There is a type of black hole called a supermassive black hole. That's because it contains more matter than ordinary black hole. And since where is matter there must be time, the thought that time is absent there is wrong. But since the gravitational influences in the black hole are enormous, time ticks away very slowly. It's more convenient to quote an astronomer on the issue:
"It is a bit misleading to say that 'time stands still' inside a black hole. Actually, if you could survive a trip into a black hole (which you couldn't) you would not be aware of any slowing down of any clock you carried as you fell in. However, if you could compare the speed of your clock with that of a reference clock kept far away, then then the clock falling into the black hole would appear to slow down relative to the clock far from the hole. The place where the falling in clock would appear to 'stop' is the spherical surface called the event horizon. This is also regarded as the boundary of the black hole, since nothing crossing this surface can escape. For more information, look at the entries for event horizon on our web page:"
imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov...

ok,,,, do you think,, what a supermassive black hole does to the matter that falls within it,,, creates dark energy or dark matter?

like the supermassive blackholes at the center of galaxies are engines which propel galaxies..,

does the same brand of space - time which exists interstellarly,, exist within a supermassive blackhole? or is there no room for space?

Originally posted by ImaFungi
ok,,,, do you think,, what a supermassive black hole does to the matter that falls within it,,, creates dark energy or dark matter?

like the supermassive blackholes at the center of galaxies are engines which propel galaxies..,

does the same brand of space - time which exists interstellarly,, exist within a supermassive blackhole? or is there no room for space?

Out of those two suggested options, I would intuitively pick neither. Black holes swallow everything close by (relatively) including the dark matter, but the whole subject is still in its early stages of observation.
www.sciencedaily.com...

I don't understand your last question.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


Why does infinite space have to mean that all probabilities will be played out? Why can't it simply be that, beyond all the galaxies there is endless and unused space? Like a shopping mall parking lot an hour before the mall opens. All the employee's cars are parked in one small area with the rest of the parking lot totally empty.

Originally posted by purplemer
reply to post by john_bmth

 

. Likewise, If I keep rolling an infinite amount of times I will almost surely get a 6 but again, it's still not a certainty

It is a certainty if you could roll an infinite amount of dice at the same time...

It's not really so, because the probability P of rolling at least one 6 using 3 dice is
P = 1 - (5/6)^3. As you increase the number of dice so it approaches infinity and assume that P =1 (certainty) you must solve (5/6)^x = 0. That's not possible, because
1) You can't substitute x with the symbol of infinity, because infinity is not real number but a math concept. There are no arithmetic or algebraic operation that involve infinity as a number - there is no result to 2 to the power of infinity, or 6 times infinity, for example.
2) There is no real result to the equation no matter how large x you imagine, because when you attempt to solve for x, the first step returns
x * Log(5/6) = Log(0)
Since the logarithm of zero is an undefined expression, you can't proceed further.
The conclusion is that the probability of NOT rolling at least one 6 by using "infinitely many dice" is "infinitely small."

reply to post by jiggerj

Why does infinite space have to mean that all probabilities will be played out? Why can't it simply be that, beyond all the galaxies there is endless and unused space? Like a shopping mall parking lot an hour before the mall opens. All the employee's cars are parked in one small area with the rest of the parking lot totally empty.

I already answered this in reply to Tremex. There's virtually no chance that infinite empty space exists beyond all the galaxies... there will be other "Universes" out there, our "Universe" being here proves that. I'm not going to get into all the logic behind why that must be the case, but just trust me... if infinite space exists out there, then there have been other Big Bangs in other places... well lets just say the probability that it hasn't happened is infinitely small.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by ChaoticOrder

 

Why does infinite space have to mean that all probabilities will be played out? Why can't it simply be that, beyond all the galaxies there is endless and unused space? Like a shopping mall parking lot an hour before the mall opens. All the employee's cars are parked in one small area with the rest of the parking lot totally empty.

edit on 10/5/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

It can be really so, meaning there is nothing else out there beyond our universe, because the alternative option that there is at least one additional universe besides ours has a scientific degree of certainty equal to a mere belief. There is no way at this moment to scientifically prove or disprove either of the two possibilities.

Analogy is not considered a proof or evidence. Move yourself some five hundred years back in time and disregard the religious views. You figure that the sun is too hot to let develop life on its surface. Since life exists on Earth, and there are other planets in the solar system, it's virtually certain that there is also life happening on Venus, Mars, and so on. Right? But the analogy fails when you get back to the present.

Originally posted by tremex

Originally posted by ImaFungi
ok,,,, do you think,, what a supermassive black hole does to the matter that falls within it,,, creates dark energy or dark matter?

like the supermassive blackholes at the center of galaxies are engines which propel galaxies..,

does the same brand of space - time which exists interstellarly,, exist within a supermassive blackhole? or is there no room for space?

Out of those two suggested options, I would intuitively pick neither. Black holes swallow everything close by (relatively) including the dark matter, but the whole subject is still in its early stages of observation.
www.sciencedaily.com...

I don't understand your last question.

my last question is,,, does space exist within a black hole, like space exists interstellarly?
or are the conditions so strenuous,, the energy and matter levels so high and dense,,, there is no room for space as we (dont) know it?


also galaxies moves through interstellar space -time?

lets imagine a galaxy moving a million light years........ does the supermassive black hole ever "touch" spacetime that surrounds the galaxy,,, as it moves,,,,, or is it as a contained center/nucleus,,, in which interstellar space could never approach or enter it?

I know stupid/uninformed questions but im just trying to think,.,.,.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Why does infinite space have to mean that all probabilities will be played out? Why can't it simply be that, beyond all the galaxies there is endless and unused space? Like a shopping mall parking lot an hour before the mall opens. All the employee's cars are parked in one small area with the rest of the parking lot totally empty.

I already answered this in reply to Tremex. There's virtually no chance that infinite empty space exists beyond all the galaxies... there will be other "Universes" out there, our "Universe" being here proves that. I'm not going to get into all the logic behind why that must be the case, but just trust me... if infinite space exists out there, then there have been other Big Bangs in other places... well lets just say the probability that it hasn't happened is infinitely small.

edit on 5/10/2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)

I didn't make my self clear. I meant that I would believe in the probability of empty space a LOT more than I would believe there are other Me's and YOU's out there - on planets just like ours, with everyone doing almost the same as we are.

reply to post by jiggerj

there are other Me's and YOU's out there - on planets just like ours, with everyone doing almost the same as we are.