Democratic Myth No. 2: Those who have done well should pay their fair share

reply to post by newcovenant


Because dunkin doughnuts, dominos, burlington coat, Sealy mattress, Steel dynamics, burger king, sports authority, staples, baskin-Robbins, toys r us, home depot, art store michaels, nabisco, Amc entertainment, guitar center. Those are a few of the well know companies Bain capital bought or took part in. There are plenty more companies that they are still currently invested in just check their website. Don't bring back gs industry facts dig around for something not in a dying market that only sold two products.

reply to post by newcovenant

Dear newcovenant,

First things first. There is no need for an apology. I didn't detect any rudeness, I have no complaint against you, and I enjoy talking with you. If you should want to irritate me some day, call me a liar and refuse to take it back. I value my integrity.

You've raised a lot of important issues in one compact paragraph. (Well done, I usually take a simple idea and fill a page with it.) Let me play with it at random, and it will be up to you to make sense of my response.

There are things that society as a whole needs, and as things stands now, it is the government's job to do them. What those things that government needs to do are, is the subject of a lot of arguments. Conservatives usually think it should be less, and Liberals lean toward the government doing more. I'm pretty sure we largely agree on the things that government needs to do; roads and bridges, police and fire, the judicial system, taxes, at least some military, basic care for the desperate, etc.

Other than those widely kinds of widely accepted jobs, I start getting a little uncomfortable. I believe the Mayor of New York has ordered a ban on sugary drinks served in containers larger than 16 oz. I'd like to be able to buy them if I felt like it. I understand that there are lower income teenagers that are spending $300 a pair for the newest tennis shoes. That's a real mistake in my eyes, but I be hard pressed to ban it.

People are going to screw up and spend their money badly. I don't know how we stop it short of taking away basic freedoms. Or, maybe going to a system where the government owns all the stores and won't sell shoes over $49.99.

But if enough people want to buy, say, designer bubble gum, sure as shootin' somebody will start making it. (And selling it at a ridiculous price.)

You're absolutely right about the shiny objects, and that is a problem. But how do we teach people self-control, planning for the future, aiding the needy, staying sober and straight, and basic economics? It used to be that was taught in the family and churches, and a bit in the schools. But now? I don't know. We've got high school graduates who can't read or do math...Ooops, I don't want to get started on that. Suffice it to say, people aren't learning the principles and skills they need to know.

Again, thank you for your post. I got nothing but good from it.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by xuenchen

 

The entire subject predicates upon statistical anomalies.

If you make a fortune and pay, say $200,000.00 in taxes. While I make a pittance and only pay $2,000.00. You have obviously paid more than me. But You're left, with say $50,000,000 to live on, where I'm left with $50,000.

(These numbers are NOT accurate - just abstractions for example).

Now the government comes along and says "Bad news folks, budget fell short. We need people to pitch in a bit more to right the ship - the ship we are ALL sailing in!" and you say "Go bug Heff, he only paid one tenth what I did.

The problem is that I've only got enough left to pay my bills and eat.

But whatever. Life is life. Cest la vie'. Only... Instead of it getting left there. Now I wake up to find that YOU are walking the decks of the ship screaming that MY FAILURE TO PITCH IN is what is sinking the ship.

That's the analog and that's why so many are enraged right now. If the ship is sinking, you don't pick the weak ones to start bailing - you start with the strongest as your core of labor and then let the weaker folks pitch in as they can. As they are able.

~Heff

edit on 10/1/12 by Hefficide because: typo

The problem is that the people flooding the decks right now are the ones demanding other people bail it out. Using your anology one of the strongest of the whole group is demanding other strong people do more, yet refuses to pick up a bucket himself.

Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway Owes Taxes Going Back To 2002

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

It is up to the people of each nation to vote left or at worst center

ah so that is the only alternative. No right of center? America has typically been right of center. I guess you are happy with the current trends of moving leftward. I understand that you and many others here disagree with Capitalism and free enterprise. That of course is your choice and I disagree with you that that is best for the world at large. I do not wish to see the world moving leftward toward the Totalitarian Statism which is obviously happening. That is just me though. Thank you for your opinions.

Originally posted by campanionator

Originally posted by neo96
There are a lot of Democratic myths.

Those who get the most benefits from tax revenue pay the least in see SS,Medicare,Medcaid.

Now some people find it totally logically to make those who aren't using those programs or even need them to pay for those who are.

For a group of people who scream civil rights all day long when it comes to a certain group who isnt LGBT the well to do have no rights.

The Democrats always try to have it both ways considering all those millionaire,and billionaires in their party.

Sick and freaking tired of this fair share crap when 47% is not paying their fair share.

Last thought.www.politico.com... read it and weep.

Every needs a dog in that hunt instead of nickle and diming a minority to extinction.

edit on 1-10-2012 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

The well to do have no rights???

The have the same right as you or me, plus they have money...

I wonder why we don't hear rich people begging to switch places with people like me?

So because the guy imprisoned falsely doesn't want to switch with the guy in Guantanamo he should shut up and feel lucky?

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by hangedman13

 

Actually I did address that, indirectly, in my first or second post in this thread. Once we bail ourselves out of this mess, then we can fix the system and the folks in charge of it. Make them more accountable, more scrutinized and repair the structure of the ship.

Some see the FED as the issue. Others see regulatory agencies. I see it as corrupt politicians and lobbying practices that are, quite literally and blatantly bribery. We have a mercenary legislature and mercenaries are not well known for their caring hearts and concern for their fellow man.

Let's get some integrity and honesty in place - and then we can begin addressing which parts of the systems work and which don't.

But, for now. either we bail or we sink. And I don't see many lifeboats. Welcome to the USA Titanic.

Is the bank band playing on deck yet?

~Heff

edit on 10/1/12 by Hefficide because: Freudian typo - so I ran with it

I agree, I think temporarily everyone needs to pitch in more. That is NOT the message Obama and the Democrats went with. They said they need to START paying their fair share. Had he said look, we screwed up, we need your help, your country needs your help. I could respect that. Instead he blames the people paying nearly ALL the taxes to begin with!!!

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


The govt has to do it's part and stem the spending spree. If they don't control spending, no amount of raising taxes is going to fix it. Democrats have convinced a lot of people that we need to raise taxes to pay for everything, and so then they just spend more. I wonder if people will ever catch on to this game. Republicans are spending too, we need to control all of govt spending.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

The govt has to do it's part and stem the spending spree. If they don't control spending, no amount of raising taxes is going to fix it. Democrats have convinced a lot of people that we need to raise taxes to pay for everything, and so then they just spend more. I wonder if people will ever catch on to this game. Republicans are spending too, we need to control all of govt spending.

I agree with that as well, as I said in my earlier post right now the Democrats are filling the ship with water demanding people bail harder. Because we are capsizing we do need to bail harder for now, but the flooding (spending) has GOT to stop. Despite what many think the military is not well funded. We need to not gut it further, we need to reduce waste across the board, and we need to hit entitlement programs which we cant afford.

Tie the slow return of entitlement funds to the slow lowering of tax rate so that they must both occur simultaneously.

reply to post by charles1952


Excellent reply sir, Mulling it over. Right now I have no solutions to the perplexing dilemma. I can say this. When I see those charts that divide the brain into halves and I examine the traits of those 2 halves I notice that our political divide falls along the exact same lines. One is strictly rational and logical without considering "softer issues" such as how to deal with the desperately poor among us who are unable to work. Should we let them sink, fall die? The other is very occupied with ideological issues and spatial arguments with little regard for hard line logistics. Next time you see one of those Left brain Right brain charts tell me if you do not see the same in our countries political divide. It is left brain against the right brain. How ever this same brain is made successful within ourselves is how it must share the load and work within this country. Otherwise we will tear ourselves in half.

Originally posted by Kali74

Sorry I had to comment on this tiny bit of your post. I know that this is the logic of a good percentage of conservatives and I see why it seems logical, but I totally disagree that it is.

The only way left to make things easier on businesses (big business) is to outright say "do whatever you want, you're now officially beyond reproach".

With all due respect, that post indicates that you have never run a business in the US of any size. Business has a myriad of controls, regulations, and taxation. EEOC, OSHA, EPA, IRS, BATF (if your business is involved with alcohol, tobbacco, or firearms), and dozens of other regulatory agencies managing tens of thousands of pages of regulations over business.

Originally posted by subject x
Nope. They can afford all the benefits they want.
They should pay more because they can afford it without affecting their standard of living.

I don't care if it's not fair. Taxes aren't fair to begin with.

Taxes are should not be about "keeping it fair." Taxes should be about funding the legitimate expenses of government: no more, no less.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

 

It is up to the people of each nation to vote left or at worst center

ah so that is the only alternative. No right of center? America has typically been right of center. I guess you are happy with the current trends of moving leftward. I understand that you and many others here disagree with Capitalism and free enterprise. That of course is your choice and I disagree with you that that is best for the world at large. I do not wish to see the world moving leftward toward the Totalitarian Statism which is obviously happening. That is just me though. Thank you for your opinions.

Current trend of moving leftward? Where do you see this?

It seems you are confusing statism by the elite against the masses for some kind of socialism. Nothing has been nationalised in america or anywhere else for that matter, which is the defintion of socialism as most people understand it. Everything is privately owned or due to become privately owned. There has been a massive campaign against nationalisation of industry for decades now.

I really have no idea where you are getting those perverse definitions from because they are nonsense. I don't mean to be insulting at all, but I have to challenge the GOP crap from it becoming a mainstream fad.

Yes left is better UNLESS you have a medium-big sized business or are a high earning professional. Everyone is getting hoodwinked by religious or birth control issues WHICH IS NONSENSE!

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

The govt has to do it's part and stem the spending spree. If they don't control spending, no amount of raising taxes is going to fix it. Democrats have convinced a lot of people that we need to raise taxes to pay for everything, and so then they just spend more. I wonder if people will ever catch on to this game. Republicans are spending too, we need to control all of govt spending.

I agree with that as well, as I said in my earlier post right now the Democrats are filling the ship with water demanding people bail harder. Because we are capsizing we do need to bail harder for now, but the flooding (spending) has GOT to stop. Despite what many think the military is not well funded. We need to not gut it further, we need to reduce waste across the board, and we need to hit entitlement programs which we cant afford.

Tie the slow return of entitlement funds to the slow lowering of tax rate so that they must both occur simultaneously.

Of course you are GOP fool. Leave the military alone and gut social services, when we have been declaring a new war each year almost with a different muslim country. Cut social services when all the jobs are being outsourced to asia so business can cut corners. Don't force business to come back by increasing tariffs, lets make it worse by people eating food from the garbage cans.

You have to be kidding me or something. I can't imagine anyone to be that dull witted. Seriously!

And we don't need 1.5 million actives and 1.5 reserves, nevermind the huge black budget which people like you don't even talk about. Donald Rumsfeld himself said 2.3 trillion went missing prior to 9-11 before we got that crappy pos DHS, TSA, Patriot Act. The cia and military SPYING ON AMERICANS! I am paying tax dollars so the freaking government can spy on my telephone or emails.

Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by Kali74

Sorry I had to comment on this tiny bit of your post. I know that this is the logic of a good percentage of conservatives and I see why it seems logical, but I totally disagree that it is.

The only way left to make things easier on businesses (big business) is to outright say "do whatever you want, you're now officially beyond reproach".

With all due respect, that post indicates that you have never run a business in the US of any size. Business has a myriad of controls, regulations, and taxation. EEOC, OSHA, EPA, IRS, BATF (if your business is involved with alcohol, tobbacco, or firearms), and dozens of other regulatory agencies managing tens of thousands of pages of regulations over business.

It is easy to bypass everything by leaving america and that is exactly what medium-big sized business has been doing for over 30 years now. Everyone else pays the piper. The government could fix a lot of things if it wanted to and obviously they don't.

It is all about the new world disorder! Remember one currency and one government? When america fails shortely and europe sinks because of the PIIGS its coming baby.

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by xuenchen

 

That's the analog and that's why so many are enraged right now. If the ship is sinking, you don't pick the weak ones to start bailing - you start with the strongest as your core of labor and then let the weaker folks pitch in as they can. As they are able.

~Heff

edit on 10/1/12 by Hefficide because: typo

It doesn't matter who's bailing when the Captain just installed a 6 trillion dollar screen door on bottom of the ship.

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

I agree, I think temporarily everyone needs to pitch in more. That is NOT the message Obama and the Democrats went with. They said they need to START paying their fair share. Had he said look, we screwed up, we need your help, your country needs your help. I could respect that. Instead he blames the people paying nearly ALL the taxes to begin with!!!

The really rich do not pay #. This is the bottom line!

Everything has been misclassified by the government. Small business is up to 500 employees, wealthy is from $250,000 and up, 39% tax starts from an unrealistic level.

What the heck does bill gates, george soros, the koch brothers, rockefellers, rothschilds, and all the other billionare or trillionares pay? I bet you would be suprised to see how many resources the top 1% have in relation to the 99%. Or we can go top .001% versus the rest.....becomes semantic after a while. This is where redistribution becomes necessary. Do you love billionares and trillionares that much?

reply to post by badgerprints


It doesn't matter who's bailing when the Captain just installed a 6 trillion dollar screen door on bottom of the ship.

In my opinion it means we bail like Hell, plank over the screen door, and fire the Captain and his crew. I've seen that horrible Cameron flick about sinking ships and one thing I learned... being in the boat is way better than being in the water.



~Heff

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by badgerprints

 

It doesn't matter who's bailing when the Captain just installed a 6 trillion dollar screen door on bottom of the ship.

In my opinion it means we bail like Hell, plank over the screen door, and fire the Captain and his crew. I've seen that horrible Cameron flick about sinking ships and one thing I learned... being in the boat is way better than being in the water.

~Heff

I completely agree with you. We all need to bail. We also need to recognize the strong are already doing a lot and we should be thankful for them doing more. The current atmosphere it's as if the guy bailing 1,000 buckets to my 1 should be thankful to ME for doing that much. My one is not good enough, I need to do more. He's stronger, he needs to do more. We need someone who will fill in the gaping holes not create more.

Higher taxes for the Wealthy, lower entitlements for the Poor, get the budget back on track. Then we can shift things, tie in raising entitlements to lowering the taxes, that way BOTH groups are set straight no matter who is sailing the ship.

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
The really rich do not pay #. This is the bottom line!

Everything has been misclassified by the government. Small business is up to 500 employees, wealthy is from $250,000 and up, 39% tax starts from an unrealistic level.

I bet you would be suprised to see how many resources the top 1% have in relation to the 99%. Or we can go top .001% versus the rest.....becomes semantic after a while.

The top 1% makes 17% of all income, and pays about 38% of all income taxes.
www.ntu.org...
www.bankrate.com...

So tell me where the top 1% is making out like bandits.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


Billionaires do pay a large amount of taxes. Federal income tax only represents 25% of taxes taken by the government. In 2009 the top .01%(3.38 million people) made 7.8% of all earnings from returns filed and accounted for 17.11% of total revenue. We can look at the top 10%(13.8 million people) account for 43.19% of all filed earnings and paid 70.47 of total revenue. I looked for payroll tax breakdown but could only find total revenue by year. In 2007 it was 890.9 billion.

Capital gains tax can only be taxed if you sell a high value item(stocks,homes,jewelry) for profit. There is two differences in the percent, a short term capital gains tax rate will be whatever income bracket you fall in. Long term capital gains are items you have had longer than 1 year and are taxed at 15%. In 2003 bush cut the long term rate to 15%, increasing revenue from 51.3 billion in 2003 to 137.1 billion in 2007.