Jesus was a "Muslim"

Originally posted by Deetermined

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

The next time you come across a christian talking about Jesus being the "son of God", just show them Luke 3:38.... Even Adam is called "son of God".

The next time you look up Bible verses, notice the difference between "son of God" and "Son of God". There's a difference in capitalization when referring to Adam versus Jesus.

ya right wise guy! Show me capitalisation in hebrew or aramaic. The capital Son and son were alterted by a editor who already had a belief that Jesus(pbuh) is god. The same when all "he/his/him" became "He/His/Him" when talking about prophet Jesus(pbuh)

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Then you imply that Mary was the mother of God.

If Jesus was God. And Mary was His mother. Then Mary is the Mother of God.

Now....go up to a protestant and tell them that....and then see what he thinks of you

I know .. they all have meltdowns.

But really, it is no different than any woman giving birth. The woman creates the body of the unborn child within her. God creates thse soul and places it in the unborn child. The mother didn't create the soul of the child. Ditto with Christ. Marys body created the preborn body of Jesus and God did the spiritual stuff.

For some strange reason, Protestants get all wonky when you say that Mary was the Mother of God. Like she had anything to do with creating Jesus soul or something and that's not how it works FOR ANY MOTHER. But the truth is .. Mary was the Mother of God. That's just the way it is according to the bible.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Deetermined

 

the verse John 20:17 (refering to trinity) was removed by bible scholars as it was a fabrication from RSV bible. And understandably there was an uproar and many denominations demanded it back or refused to buy that HERATIC bible. Lol. The publishers had a choice to be true and starve, guess what they did..
So trinity is popular opinion and not a scholistic fact(its actually forgery)

Where did you see me quote John 20:17?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
So when Jesus was alive, and walked the earth, he instructed his disciples to avoid the gentile towns....but after he rose from the dead... he was suddenly interested in his disciples preaching to the gentiles?? You sure you don't see anything wrong with this?

Take it up with Jesus. I had nothing to do with how He planned His church and I had nothing to do with how He planned the activities of his followers. He had His own timetable .. first the children of Israel and then the rest of the children of the world. I had no say in it ...

(heck .. I still don't have any say. If I did have a say, the world would be a different place)

Originally posted by logical7
So trinity is popular opinion and not a scholistic fact(its actually forgery

The early Christians ... the fathers of Christianity .. from a time before the bible was even around .. believed in the Holy Trinity. They wrote about it. You might want to read up ... Writings here

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Then you imply that Mary was the mother of God.

If Jesus was God. And Mary was His mother. Then Mary is the Mother of God.

Now....go up to a protestant and tell them that....and then see what he thinks of you

I know .. they all have meltdowns.

But really, it is no different than any woman giving birth. The woman creates the body of the unborn child within her. God creates thse soul and places it in the unborn child. The mother didn't create the soul of the child. Ditto with Christ. Marys body created the preborn body of Jesus and God did the spiritual stuff.

For some strange reason, Protestants get all wonky when you say that Mary was the Mother of God. Like she had anything to do with creating Jesus soul or something and that's not how it works FOR ANY MOTHER. But the truth is .. Mary was the Mother of God. That's just the way it is according to the bible.

by that logic, God put soul for every baby ever born. Halelujah!!We all are sons and daughters of God.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Is this the same Moses, the brother of Aaron, that Mohammed said Mary, the mother of Jesus was Aaron's sister?

Is David the father of Jesus?
Then why does the Bible call Jesus the "son of David"?

Because Jesus was a descendant of David, which was one of the characteristics that was given to the Jews as to how they would be able to recognize the Messiah.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Deetermined

 

the verse John 5:7 (refering to trinity) was removed by bible scholars as it was a fabrication from RSV bible. And understandably there was an uproar and many denominations demanded it back or refused to buy that HERATIC bible. Lol. The publishers had a choice to be true and starve, guess what they did..
So trinity is popular opinion and not a scholistic fact(its actually forgery)

edit on 3-10-2012 by logical7 because: (no reason given)

I see you changed your original post, but that still doesn't make up for all of the surrounding verses that lead to the same conclusion that I listed, verses 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, and 11 lead to the same conclusion. Not to mention the additional verses I posted and the one that FlyersFan listed in Matthew 28:19.

Originally posted by Deetermined

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Deetermined

 

the verse John 20:17 (refering to trinity) was removed by bible scholars as it was a fabrication from RSV bible. And understandably there was an uproar and many denominations demanded it back or refused to buy that HERATIC bible. Lol. The publishers had a choice to be true and starve, guess what they did..
So trinity is popular opinion and not a scholistic fact(its actually forgery)

Where did you see me quote John 20:17?

i made a mistake it was 5:7, i edited the post. And about your bible quotes, just tell me that can "spirit" be taken as "soul/essence etc" and may not mean "Holy spirit" each time?

Originally posted by logical7
by that logic, God put soul for every baby ever born.

Yes. Absolutely. None of us created the soul that is in our children. Our bodies made the bodies, but the soul that resides in it .. that was made by God. Ditto for Mary.

Halelujah!!We all are sons and daughters of God.

That's why Christians pray ... 'OUR FATHER, who art in Heaven ... ' ... right?
Supposedly Jesus is our brother and we are all children of God.
Although Jesus is God incarnate, and we are not.
We are created beings .. Jesus is eternal .. always has been God and always will be.
(according to John in the bible )

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
So trinity is popular opinion and not a scholistic fact(its actually forgery

The early Christians ... the fathers of Christianity .. from a time before the bible was even around .. believed in the Holy Trinity. They wrote about it. You might want to read up ... Writings here

thats wat i am saying, fathers of christianity had an idea and included it when they compiled the bible.

Originally posted by logical7

From where do you get Messiah=divinity?

I don't. I did not claim that messiahship requires divinity, nor do I believe that. The very nature of requiring the death of a deity for salvation is nonsensical. What mortal can kill a god? I have, perhaps, highly peculiar notions in the matter of that relationship, but requiring divinity of the Messiah is not one of them.

Actually its the opposite, ask any of our Jew friends.

Probably not the wisest idea to ask a people who rejected him to define his office... just sayin'...

And about obeying prophet, ya its only obeying God, but as the commands are relayed through a prophet then obeying him is obeying God and thats true for any prophet. How can one obey God and accept a message but reject the messenger?

Why then does he name only himself in the Shahada? Why would he not include the other prophets by stating something like "and the prophets deliver God's word"? In every instance I can find - and you may be able to find others to correct me with - obedience is ALWAYS required not only to God, but to "His Prophet" as well... never in the plural, always in the singular. Why is that? One can obey the message, and receive the messenger without placing the messenger on an equal footing with God. It's not a hard thing to do. To give the messenger his proper place is in no way a rejection of him.

And about Jesus(pbuh) not demanding obedience, did you mean its literal "follow me"? Or rather, imitate my example, do what i say, in short"believe and obey"

"Obedience" implies strict adherence to set laws. Jesus enjoined us to follow his path, i.e. find our own way by thinking for ourselves, not blindly following the legalistic pronouncements of some other mere mortal. He saw "the law" as a living thing of spirit, subject to contemplation, not a set of dry words to be adhered to blindly. This is why I ignore both the Shari'a and the Levitical Laws. they are the pronouncements and "interpretations" of mere mortals. God does not live there.

Don't get me wrong, brother. I believe - I just believe differently - perhaps drastically so - than you, or just about anyone else I've ever met. They have chosen their path, I have chosen mine.

Originally posted by Deetermined

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Deetermined

 

the verse John 5:7 (refering to trinity) was removed by bible scholars as it was a fabrication from RSV bible. And understandably there was an uproar and many denominations demanded it back or refused to buy that HERATIC bible. Lol. The publishers had a choice to be true and starve, guess what they did..
So trinity is popular opinion and not a scholistic fact(its actually forgery)

edit on 3-10-2012 by logical7 because: (no reason given)

I see you changed your original post, but that still doesn't make up for all of the surrounding verses that lead to the same conclusion that I listed, verses 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, and 11 lead to the same conclusion. Not to mention the additional verses I posted and the one that FlyersFan listed in Matthew 28:19.

my dear friend nobody is denying that verses exist. The question is were the teachings of our beloved Jesus(pbuh) hijacked by fathers of the new emerging christianity to serve their puposes after Jesus(pbuh) departed. I always admire the intensity of christians in their belief. But a interospection is needed to clear up that its not a misguidance which Jesus(pbuh) never authorised but actually condemned and warned about.

reply to post by Deetermined


Well, that certainly WAS some interpretation! Unfortunately, I don't interpret, I read, and read what is plainly there. I saw no trinity there, only a series of witnesses.

I went to court a few weeks ago as a witness. I testified on behalf of the defendant. I was not the defendant himself.

Don't misunderstand me - I've been going along starring your posts, because you bring up good points and logical arguments. I believe, however, in the case of the trinity you have misread, and placed more into the text than is there.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

Its like saying Christians took over the scriptures of the Jews and twisted it to include concepts such as "trinity", "original sin" and Jesus' divinity.

Bad news....You are in no position to accuse anybody else of twisting somebody elses scripture.

Yeah right, whatever...

Isaiah 9:6

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 7:14

14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

reply to post by nenothtu


That's another point I was trying to make.

It doesn't matter if the witnesses bearing record of one another meant that they were one and the same witness.

If you don't have one of the witnesses, you still don't have the other two. That's what the verses in 1 John 5:5-12 are clearly saying.

It's a package deal whether they are the same entity or not.

Edit to add: Your body isn't a living entity until it has spirit, water and blood. You take one of them away, and you still won't have a living entity.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Deetermined

 

the verse John 5:7 (refering to trinity) was removed by bible scholars as it was a fabrication from RSV bible. And understandably there was an uproar and many denominations demanded it back or refused to buy that HERATIC bible. Lol. The publishers had a choice to be true and starve, guess what they did..
So trinity is popular opinion and not a scholistic fact(its actually forgery)

edit on 3-10-2012 by logical7 because: (no reason given)

This is John 5:7:

6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he said to him, Will you be made whole? 7 The weak man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steps down before me. John 5:6-7 (American King James Version)

I'm just not seeing any trinitarian doctrine there, either. I don't happen to have the RSV, but I do have 29 other versions going back to Bishop Wulfila and John Wycliffe handy if there is another you know of that it was deleted from.

reply to post by nenothtu


He meant to say 1 John 5:7.

Originally posted by Deetermined

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Deetermined

 

the verse John 20:17 (refering to trinity) was removed by bible scholars as it was a fabrication from RSV bible. And understandably there was an uproar and many denominations demanded it back or refused to buy that HERATIC bible. Lol. The publishers had a choice to be true and starve, guess what they did..
So trinity is popular opinion and not a scholistic fact(its actually forgery)

Where did you see me quote John 20:17?

Oops. it got changed on me from John 20:17 to John 5:7, so in the interests of thoroughness, here is John 20:17 -

16 Jesus said to her, Mary. She turned herself, and said to him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17 Jesus said to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brothers, and say to them, I ascend to my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. John 20:16-17 (American King James Version)

Still not seeing trinitarian hints, even here. It does appear that here is is making a distinction, even then, between himself and his father, between even himself and his God, and identifying fraternally with other mere mortals. It seems to me, on balance, to be distinctly ANTI-trinitarian.

His use of "and your Father" would seem to imply that he considered his "brothers" to ALSO be "Sons of God", as one would expect of brethren - to have the same Father.

Either way, in either verse, I'm not seeing fabricated support for trinitarian doctrine, which I gathered is what I was supposed to find there.

reply to post by nenothtu


www.bible-researcher.com...

Its called the Johannine Comma... Added after the fact...

This verse is their best defence for the trinity...