reply to post by nenothtu
Touching upon the concept of the trinity, I've never seen a biblical verse in support of it. I note that one poster claimed there was one that was
taken out, but I've never seen it, nor do I have any idea how it could have been construed to support a trinitarian concept. As near as I can tell,
the trinitarian doctrine was a heresy introduced at Nicea, something like 300 years after Christ, and was hotly contested at the time, only carrying
the day because of political support from secular powers, not from any sort of Godly deliberation.
Interpret these verses any way you want, but I think it all leads to the same conclusion:
1 John 5:5-12
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness,
because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the
record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
This isn't the only place in the Bible that brings all of these together. Jesus does it himself several times throughout the entire New
Now, whether or not people want to believe that God/Jesus/Holy Spirit is actually one, these verses make it very clear that without all three, you
have nothing. They all bear witness/record of one another. If you don't have one, you don't have the other two. If you discredit one of them, you
discredit them all. They work together to create eternal life, just as spirit, water and blood all have to work together to create a physical life
here on earth.
Here's the dilemma as it relates to Muslims. If they don't believe that Jesus is who God said he was, they have nothing. The only one that bears
witness to us to confirm that Jesus was actually the Son of God is the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit to witness and confirm this, as part of
our faith, there is no faith and once again, there is nothing. No eternal life. To know one, you have to know all of them, and you have to believe
what they said about each other. They are record of each other.
Jesus couldn't have been more clear about this. Here's how it works:
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
And what is it in verse 65 that is "given unto him of my Father"? It's the Holy Spirit. The only way to get to Jesus is through the Holy Spirit,
that it given to people by God. How do we know that?
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
How do the "sheep hear my voice"? Through the Holy Spirit.
It's a three step process, regardless of whether they are the same entity or not.
And obviously, from verse John 6:66, not everyone is going to be happy about. One leads to the other.
A keyword search for "Holy Spirit", "Holy Ghost" and "Spirit of God" in the Bible will confirm many more.