Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Akragon
Well, 8 and 8 are not two "infinite" numbers.And the belief that God is all things is "Pantheism". Universalism would be the belief that all people go to heaven when they die physically.
Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by FlyersFan
As for the part about Allah being a "pagan moon god"...its only the fundamentalist Christians who keep rambling on about it. So one can safely dismiss those claims as hogwash.
There is no way that Jesus, Who was God incarnate, would call out to a pagan moon god.
Surah 53:1 By the star when it descends,What is the star that descends???
Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred,Whose companion? The companion of Allah? The star? Whose companion? He did not say Abu Bakr, Uthman, Abu Haraira or Umar, so who's companion is he? Remember, Allah takes no partners, right? Because Mohammed does not say here who his companion is, then we must assume it is either Allah or the star.
Surah 53:3Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination.Does he speak by the companion? Either he is speaking by the star or Allah and since the star is descending at the beginning, one has to assume Allah. And notice here, he does not say Shaytan either, he does not say Jinn, because Shaytan is a jinn, therefore made of smoke and not a star.
Surah 53:4 It is not but a revelation revealed,Ah, so the star gives revelation.
Surah 53:5 Taught to him by one intense in strength -Allah teaches Mohammed, right? So the star is giving revelation and teaching, interesting.
Surah 53:5 One of soundness. And he rose to [his] true form
Surah 53:6 While he was in the higher [part of the] horizon.Wait, you mean Mohammed was looking at a visible object in the sky? The one who revealed, rose and taught...was visible, in the sky?
Surah 53:7 Then he approached and descendedSo far, Mohammed has not said he was in a vision or a dream, he is saying that he really saw a visible object descending.
Surah 53:8 And was at a distance of two bow lengths or nearer.Pretty close there.
Surah 53:9 And he revealed to His Servant what he revealed.Sure this was not Allah?
Surah 53:10 The heart did not lie [about] what it saw.He wants you to believe him.
Surah 53:11 So will you dispute with him over what he saw?It occurred to me here that this is not Mohammed speaking, but one of the Companions. Wait, I thought every verse in the Quran was supposed to be the words of Mohammed, but here, clearly it is not. And I have not even gotten to the daughters of Allah yet.
Surah 53: 12 And he certainly saw him in another descentOh, this visible object has been seen more than once, so why dispute Mohammed's claim?
Surah 53:13 At the Lote Tree of the Utmost Boundary -In paradise, where all the houris are (houri was originally found in Zoroastrianism along with jinns)
Surah 53:14 Near it is the Garden of Refuge -Exactly what it was always called in Zoroastrianism.
Surah 53:15 When there covered the Lote Tree that which covered [it].Stays on Zoroastrianism
Surah 53:16 The sight [of the Prophet] did not swerve, nor did it transgress [its limit].He really saw it.
Surah 53:17 He certainly saw of the greatest signs of his Lord.He saw a lot, believe the writer.
Surah 53:18 So have you considered al-Lat and al-'Uzza?Two of the daughters of Allah
Surah 53: 19 And Manat, the third - the other one?There she is, the third daughter of Allah
Surah 53:20 Is the male for you and for Him the female?For who? Allah, Mohammed? Who is Him? Since it is capitalized, I am assuming this means for Allah. Is the writer complaining that someone else gets the male but Allah gets the female?
Surah 53:21 That, then, is an unjust division.It's unfair that who gets what? You mean Mohammed is upset that Allah got the females?
Surah 53:23 They are not but [mere] names you have named them - you and your forefathers - for which Allah has sent down no authority. They follow not except assumption and what [their] souls desire, and there has already come to them from their Lord guidance.So the pagans did indeed worship Allah with three daughters. You mean for a thousand years, Allah had daughters that the Quraysh tribe worshipped until Mohammed saw a star that told him differently?
Surah 53:24 Or is there for man whatever he wishes?Kind of like Mohammed getting permission to rape, plunder, steal and kill?
Surah 53:25 Rather, to Allah belongs the Hereafter and the first [life].What is the first life? Did Mohammed reincarnate? Actually, all religions believe in a hereafter, including Zoroastrianism that was ripped off in the first part of the Surah.
Surah 53:26 And how many angels there are in the heavens whose intercession will not avail at all except [only] after Allah has permitted [it] to whom He wills and approves.This is not a Biblical concept, angels do not intercede, but Zoroastrian angels do. Jesus is the intercessor for the Christian, and the Bible does not call Jesus an angel.
Surah 53:27Indeed, those who do not believe in the Hereafter name the angels female names,Actually, all religions that believe in angels name them male and female.
Surah 53:28And they have thereof no knowledge. They follow not except assumption, and indeed, assumption avails not against the truth at all.Kind of like assuming Mohammed said he saw a star that revealed things to him, just because he said it, does not make it so.
Surah 53: 29 So turn away from whoever turns his back on Our message and desires not except the worldly life.Whose message? Allah was never named once in this Surah, so we know it is not Allah speaking, and since the writer is not Mohammed speaking because the writer continually says "his"...then whose message? The star?
Surah 53:30 That is their sum of knowledge. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who strays from His way, and He is most knowing of who is guided.So the star is Lord?
Surah 53:31 And to Allah belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth - that He may recompense those who do evil with [the penalty of] what they have done and recompense those who do good with the best [reward] -OH, so the star is indeed Allah, good to know. So Allah was a visible object seen in the sky at the horizon line.
Surah 53:32 Those who avoid the major sins and immoralities, only [committing] slight ones. Indeed, your Lord is vast in forgiveness. He was most knowing of you when He produced you from the earth and when you were fetuses in the wombs of your mothers. So do not claim yourselves to be pure; He is most knowing of who fears Him.So you can commit sins? The star says morality is relative.
Surah 53: 62 So prostrate to Allah and worship [Him].Yes, the star demands you prostrate to it.
Surah 53:49 And that it is He who is the Lord of Sirius
Assurbanipal, in the seventh pre-Christian century, celebrated a festival for Venus when Sirius was rising heliacally: “In the month of Abu, the month of the heliacal rising of the Bow Star, the festival of the honored queen, the daughter [Ishtar] of Enlil, while, to render homage to her great godhead, I sojourned in Arbela, her beloved city. . .”10 This statement of Assurbanipal is interpreted as meaning that the king “considered Ištar of Arbela the divine impersonator of Sirius.”11 Ištar of Elam and Ištar of Babylon are also defined as the Bow Star, or Sirius. This link of the Venus festival with Sirius persisted until the Middle Ages among the Harranians.12 The celebration of the Assyrian and Harranian festivals to Venus when Sirius was rising heliacally should not be neglected by students of the Canopus Decree, and of Sothic chronology.
OH, so the star is indeed Allah, good to know. So Allah was a visible object seen in the sky at the horizon line.
(53:52) and that He it is Who destroyed the people of Noah before for they were much given to iniquity and transgression.
Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by logical7
(53:52) and that He it is Who destroyed the people of Noah before for they were much given to iniquity and transgression.
The Koran repeats many of the bibles stories.
The fundamentalists will never acknowledge all that, instead they'd just say "Oh but Mohammad just copied it all from the bible"... which is a pretty weak argument.... and go on and on about the moon god.
I am NOT muslim by birth...so I am in a pretty neutral position to read the Bible and the Koran and decide. From what I have read, the God of the Koran is THE SAME as the God of the bible.
Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by nenothtu
i am impressed by your broad minded approach.
So did u find the 3 books similar?
Originally posted by logical7
The problem here is that if its acknowledged that the God of Bible and Quran is same, then Islam stops appearing alien and scary and possibility of it being authentic increase, thats DANGEROUS!!
OBVIOUSLY the two books are not from the same source. 
Suggested reading - Why I am Not a Muslim by Ibn
Warriq. Very educational on the errors and contradictions in the Qu'ran and problems with Islam in general. And here ya go .. should keep you busy
on a rainy afternoon ... 1000 errors and mistakes in the Qu'ran The god of the Qu'ran is a confused mess
and rather petty. Not the kind of god I'd want to have to deal with for eternity.Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by WarminIndy
the surah at the start is addressed to companions of prophet and talking about Muhammad(pbuh)
maybe nw it will make sense.
And the "mighty one" is angel Jibrael(Gabriel) and ya angels are visible. Now the surah makes more sense right?
Now re-read it ane see how stupid your conclusions sound.
And i'l post the remaining surah in next post, which you conviniently skipped. Maybe you should read it and give it some thought
Surah 28:2These are the verses of the clear Book.If it's clear, it should be correct, right?
Surah 28:6 And establish them in the land and show Pharaoh and [his minister] Haman and their soldiers through them that which they had feared.
Surah 28:38 And Pharaoh said, "O eminent ones, I have not known you to have a god other than me. Then ignite for me, O Haman, [a fire] upon the clay and make for me a tower that I may look at the God of Moses. And indeed, I do think he is among the liars."
HAMAN THE AGAGITE. Son of Hammedatha; chief minister of King Ahasuerus (Esth.iii.1-2). As his name indicates, Haman was a descendant of Agag, the king of the Amalekites. On account of his attempt to exterminate the Jews in the kingdom of Ahasuerus, he is frequently called "the persecutor of the Jews" ( ; Esth. iii. 10; viii. 1; ix. 10, 24). His machinations against the Jews and his downfall are remembered during the Feast of Purim.
AHASUERUS. Persian king, identical with Xerxes (486-465 B.C.). The Book of Esther deals only with one period of his reign. It tells us that he ruled over one hundred and twenty-seven provinces—"from India, even unto Ethiopia" (Esth. i. 1)
Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
... the fact that Jesus had to call out to God means he was NOT God incarnate.
Tertullian
"We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit. . . . This rule of faith has been present since the beginning of the gospel, before even the earlier heretics" (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216]).
"And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (ibid.).
"Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other [distinct], the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" (ibid., 9).
"Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent persons, who are yet distinct one from another. These three are, one essence, not one person, as it is said, ‘I and my Father are one’ [John 10:30], in respect of unity of being not singularity of number" (ibid., 25)
Originally posted by FlyersFan
That's because Muhammed, when he invented his new religion, PLAGIARIZED from the Jews and Christians. Muhammed took what he knew from the other religions (Jews, Christianity and Zoroastrianism) and tried to transpose it to the new one he was inventing. But he didn't do a good job of it.
God didn't write the Qu'ran. Muslims made it up. So some of the same stories will be in it. They are twisted from the original sources and added to in order to fit into the political asperations of Muhammed and his followers. The 'god' of the Qu'ran isn't the same God of the Old Testament. The Qu'ran god is a twisted version of the original.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
And here ya go .. should keep you busy on a rainy afternoon ... 1000 errors and mistakes in the Qu'ran The god of the Qu'ran is a confused mess and rather petty. Not the kind of god I'd want to have to deal with for eternity.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
The God of the bible is a Trinity God. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. There is NO WAY that Muslims believe that Jesus is God incarnate. Therefore, the God of the bible is NOT the god of the Qu'ran.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
- There IS a pre-Islamic moon good named Allah. It was still worshipped during the time Muhammad was a kid. That's a fact as well. So when people go 'on and on' about the moon god, they are just stating truth.
