Jesus was a "Muslim"

reply to post by Akragon

It says hes at the right hand of God, NOT on Gods throne...

The Bible says that Jesus is only at the right hand of God until he puts all of his enemies under his feet.

Once that happens, the New Jerusalem will come down from Heaven and then God/Jesus will be sharing the throne as one and "God will be all in all".

Revelation 21:22-23

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb (Jesus) are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb (Jesus) is the light thereof.

Revelation 22:3-4

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb (Jesus) shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Notice, it says the "throne of God and of the Lamb", it doesn't say thrones.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

In order to be "united" there needs to be at least two objects to unite...

Both of said objects are identified as God according to your trinity...

Thus there is more then ONE God... three Gods "united" as one...

And one of them didn't ever identify himself as God... only Gods son.

I picture Christ seated on the throne.

It says hes at the right hand of God, NOT on Gods throne...

edit on 6-10-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

So please explain how mathematically you would "separate" two infinite things. And no, ONE God whoexists as three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

"At the right hand" is a Hebraism for a position of authority. It's a Jewish literary device.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


People calling themselves christians and do not know that Jesus is God, are not from orthodox christianity which are beliefs dating back to the Apostles. The very point of the Dark Ages was to make us forget him, by outlawing reading and writing, the clergy and the aristocracy tried to destroy what remained of the real christianity. In their blindness they thought what they were doing was right, and because the lust for power and wealth drove those men to madness they did unspeakable things in the name of God in whom they didn't know to begin with.

If i could give you my revelation i would, because it's beautiful.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death

The underlined portion has 2 applications. it refers to the death and resurrection of Christ, but it happened twice. Spiritually this world is sheol. To come to this world the Son of God (who is our creator) had to die to who he was and come to the world of the dead to be our servant in order to be our Savior. When he ascended he took up his mantle again and was made alive forever more once again. Not only did Christ suffer the physical death, he suffered the second death as well, he tasted death completely for all men.

The Father is Spirit, the Son is the only one who can reveal the Father and he reveals the Father in himelf in the physical and in revelation he gives, the Almighty manifested in the physical is who and what the Son of God is. The Father cannot be seen, this means the only other who could be seen was the Son, in whom Moses saw the back of on Mt. Sinai. Jesus revealed the Father to Philip in John 14:8-10.

reply to post by Deetermined

The Bible says that Jesus is only at the right hand of God until he puts all of his enemies under his feet.

Which is refering to Psalm 110... and I believe david conquered his enemies according to the OT

Once that happens, the New Jerusalem will come down from Heaven and then God/Jesus will be sharing the throne as one and "God will be all in all

According to revelation... a book written by an old man in a cave...

Revelation 21:22-23

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb (Jesus) are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb (Jesus) is the light thereof.

Revelation 22:3-4

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb (Jesus) shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

and so on.... and so on...

Revelation is hardly reliable information....

Notice, it says the "throne of God and of the Lamb", it doesn't say thrones.

As far as im concerned it doesn't really matter what it says...

1 Corinthians 15:24-28

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Paul

The final verse you quoted also shows my point.... "even the son shall be subject unto him"

Then again, i really don't care what paul has to say either in most cases....



reply to post by NOTurTypical

So please explain how mathematically you would "separate" two infinite things.

8...........8

Something like that i guess?

IF God is infinite like you say... he is all things. Didn't you say that is "universalism" or something like that?

And no, ONE God whoexists as three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

He said the Father is in him... He did not say I AM the Father... Though johns testament says something along those lines when he is speaking to phillip...

But

"If you've seen me you've seen the Father" doesn't mean i am the Father... It means a likeness of the Father, or even the perfection that came from the father... or the example from him which i prefer actually

"At the right hand" is a Hebraism for a position of authority. It's a Jewish literary device.

And what position of Authority did the thieves have?

Matthew 27:38
Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

People calling themselves christians and do not know that Jesus is God, are not from orthodox christianity which are beliefs dating back to the Apostles. The very point of the Dark Ages was to make us forget him, by outlawing reading and writing, the clergy and the aristocracy tried to destroy what remained of the real christianity. In their blindness they thought what they were doing was right, and because the lust for power and wealth drove those men to madness they did unspeakable things in the name of God in whom they didn't know to begin with.

If i could give you my revelation i would, because it's beautiful.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death

The underlined portion has 2 applications. it refers to the death and resurrection of Christ, but it happened twice. Spiritually this world is sheol. To come to this world the Son of God (who is our creator) had to die to who he was and come to the world of the dead to be our servant in order to be our Savior. When he ascended he took up his mantle again and was made alive forever more once again. Not only did Christ suffer the physical death, he suffered the second death as well, he tasted death completely for all men.

The Father is Spirit, the Son is the only one who can reveal the Father and he reveals the Father in himelf in the physical and in revelation he gives, the Almighty manifested in the physical is who and what the Son of God is. The Father cannot be seen, this means the only other who could be seen was the Son, in whom Moses saw the back of on Mt. Sinai. Jesus revealed the Father to Philip in John 14:8-10.

These are somethings new i have heard.
Jesus(pbuh) died twice??
came as our SERVANT??
.
If i am not taking it wrongly, does that mean he came to serve Christians? god came to serve humans? Only arrogant ones have that attitude that God should do everything to keep them happy. I always believed the opposite.
.
Moses(pbuh) saw Jesus(pbuh) at Sinai??
i guess he saw a fire and heard God only.
.
And explain me if Jesus(pbuh) died on the cross as god then you mean trinity was destroyed for 3 days?
And if one part of triune god died the others cant exist or they are independent of each other and so three and not ONE.
and if he died as a man then thats not enough to pay for everybody's sins.
.
So i see the most important thing for a christian is to have "faith" but not just in God, but also in this amazing confusing story.

reply to post by WarminIndy

If Allah is the same god, then why do they have trouble with saying Yaweh?

Looks like Jesus also had trouble saying "Yahweh" when he was nailed to the cross. In fact, he never used the word Yahweh , but instead used the
Instead he used the Aramaic word "Eloi" similar to "Allah".

Also, according to the Aramaic/English translator, the word for God in Aramaic is "Alaah".
www.atour.com...

I want to hear one Muslim say "the name of God is Yaweh".

I have heard a muslim debater or two refer to God as the bible calls Him, whenever they need to refer to the bible. Point being, they don't deny the God of the bible.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

People calling themselves christians and do not know that Jesus is God, are not from orthodox christianity which are beliefs dating back to the Apostles. The very point of the Dark Ages was to make us forget him, by outlawing reading and writing, the clergy and the aristocracy tried to destroy what remained of the real christianity. In their blindness they thought what they were doing was right, and because the lust for power and wealth drove those men to madness they did unspeakable things in the name of God in whom they didn't know to begin with.

If the clergy and the aristocracy tried to destroy what remained of Christianity, then it means that the original teachings of Christianity have long since been forgotten. All we are left with are speculations based on documents published by the Church.

So when any one group of Christians living today claims to have knowledge of the real Christianity before it was corrupted/destroyed in the dark ages, he is no different from other sub groups of Christianity who also claim the same.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


He said the greatest command is the Shema in Deuteronomy. In that verse appears the word "LORD" which is not what the Hebrew text says. In Hebrew it says "YHVH".

reply to post by Akragon


Well, 8 and 8 are not two "infinite" numbers. And the belief that God is all things is "Pantheism". Universalism would be the belief that all people go to heaven when they die physically.

reply to post by logical7


Arrogant? No, Jesus taught a true leader is one who serves others. And that doesn't mean give them anything they want, that means meeting their needs.

" For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."

Mark 10:45

Originally posted by logical7
Jesus(pbuh) died twice?? came as our SERVANT??

Jesus is the 'suffering servant' as described by Isaiah Click Here .
Matthew 20:28 Jesus said - For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve others and to give his life as a ransom for many."
At the Last Supper, Jesus washed the feet of his disciples and told them to serve others as he served them.
.

And explain me if Jesus(pbuh) died on the cross as god then you mean trinity was destroyed for 3 days?

Jesus wasn't destroyed at death. His body died. His soul went 'to the dead'.
The underworld some call it. There was no destruction of God .. no destruction of the Holy Trinity.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
Instead he used the Aramaic word "Eloi" similar to "Allah".

Those are two separate things. No matter how much someone thinks they may sound similar (I don't see it similar at all) they simply are not the same thing at all. The only Allah around at that time period - the pre muslim time period - was the pagan moon god version. There is no way that Jesus, Who was God incarnate, would call out to a pagan moon god.

It's really a stretch to say that Jesus was calling out to a pagan tribal god.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by logical7

 

Arrogant? No, Jesus taught a true leader is one who serves others. And that doesn't mean give them anything they want, that means meeting their needs.

" For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many."

Mark 10:45

i know why Jesus(pbuh) came, read his beautiful teachings before he was allegedly crucified and you'l know too, what people did after him, he is not responsible, he'l wash his hands off anyone who lied about him.
Now let me take you through this,
.
God made man(knowing him full well)
.
God gave man(woman) a wonderful gift of free choice
.
Now i am being told that God had to sacrifice His son to save man.
If God is God, He must have known this even before He made man.
or the other option is that GOD had no idea what man would turn out like,nw thats not God.
.
And if God choose initial conditions in that way then He is not doing justice to His "son". Nw thats not God again.
so whats left is maybe it dint happen that way, maybe there is no son, everybody comes to God as a servant and can repent and get forgiven.

reply to post by logical7


How does any of your post address what I said?

reply to post by FlyersFan

The only Allah around at that time period - the pre muslim time period - was the pagan moon god version.

Allah is simply the Arabic word for God. There is no other.
Since Aramaic is related to Arabic, theres a good chance that the words for "God" would be similar.

www.atour.com...

Which explains why Jesus shouted out the Aramaic word for God on the cross.

As for the part about Allah being a "pagan moon god"...its only the fundamentalist Christians who keep rambling on about it. So one can safely dismiss those claims as hogwash.

There is no way that Jesus, Who was God incarnate, would call out to a pagan moon god.

Ummmm... the fact that Jesus had to call out to God means he was NOT God incarnate.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by logical7
Jesus(pbuh) died twice?? came as our SERVANT??

Jesus is the 'suffering servant' as described by Isaiah Click Here .
Matthew 20:28 Jesus said - For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve others and to give his life as a ransom for many."
At the Last Supper, Jesus washed the feet of his disciples and told them to serve others as he served them.
.

And explain me if Jesus(pbuh) died on the cross as god then you mean trinity was destroyed for 3 days?

Jesus wasn't destroyed at death. His body died. His soul went 'to the dead'.
The underworld some call it. There was no destruction of God .. no destruction of the Holy Trinity.

ya Jesus(pbuh) is a servant, but to God only, not fellow humans, thats sick. Ya he helped people and served them but as a servant of God. The same applies to all, we have a choice to be servants of God and help humanity, uphold justice and we do that as a servant obeying our Creator.
.
And about trinity not being destroyed, even when any human dies, his/her soul is not destroyed. So whats different about Jesus(pbuh)?
Did he just left his body knowing full well that he is just going to God? Where's the sacrifice? Where's that advertised DEATH of god?

reply to post by Akragon


Help me to understand something, Akragon.

If you believe that the God of the Old Testament is an impostor, Paul is an impostor, and that John was a crazy old man, why do you even hold any interest in the Bible at all? Why do you have any interest in Jesus if the rest of it is bunk? Why the fascination? What special set of keys do you think Jesus has that keeps you interested? If you honestly believe that it's nothing more than "loving thy neighbor as thyself" while taking care of the widows and orphans, why spend so much time studying scripture that you keep deeming as bunk? What are you looking for or trying to prove?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


keep reading my other post after that

reply to post by logical7

If i am not taking it wrongly, does that mean he came to serve Christians? god came to serve humans? Only arrogant ones have that attitude that God should do everything to keep them happy. I always believed the opposite.

The Son of God came here to be our servant, so that we can have everlasting life. No one had the attitude that God should do anything. It was his gift to us because he loved us so much he couldn't see us perish for eternity.

John 3:16-18

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

Moses(pbuh) saw Jesus(pbuh) at Sinai??
i guess he saw a fire and heard God only.

No, Moses saw God, not fire, not just a voice, he saw him, his back parts. This is the Son of God Moses saw, the Father is spirit and cannot be seen. The Son is his physical manifestation.

Exodus 33:12-23

12 Moses said to the Lord, “You have been telling me, ‘Lead these people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. You have said, ‘I know you by name and you have found favor with me.’ 13 If you are pleased with me, teach me your ways so I may know you and continue to find favor with you. Remember that this nation is your people.”

14 The Lord replied, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”

15 Then Moses said to him, “If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. 16 How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?”

17 And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”

18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”

19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”

21 Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

.

And explain me if Jesus(pbuh) died on the cross as god then you mean trinity was destroyed for 3 days?
And if one part of triune god died the others cant exist or they are independent of each other and so three and not ONE.

No the Son of God, the physical manifestion of the Father in this world was crucified on the cross. The Son manifested many times before he appeared as Jesus Exodus 33 when he showed Moses his back is one of these examples. In the book of Joshua there is another example, and many more examples where he appeared. He even appeared to Abraham before Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed.

Joshua 5:13-15

13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?”

14 So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.”

And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, “What does my Lord say to His servant?”

15 Then the Commander of the Lord’s army said to Joshua, “Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy.” And Joshua did so.

We know this commander is God because Joshua worshipped him, this is another manifestation of the Father, another instance of the Son of God. Denote the "take off your sandals you're standing on Holy ground" as God spoke to Moses The only holy ground is where God is standing Exodus 3:5

and if he died as a man then thats not enough to pay for everybody's sins.

So our Creator the Son of God dying for the sins of the world is not enough for you? You desire him to do more than endure the horrors inflicted at the hands of his own creations? Now that is arrogant and ungrateful. Prophecy states he would do this in many places, like Isaiah 53.


Your confusion comes from your Quran, thats why you are having a hard time reconciling the hebrew bible and the new tetament scriptures, they do not mingle with your book.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Akragon

 

Help me to understand something, Akragon.

If you believe that the God of the Old Testament is an impostor, Paul is an impostor, and that John was a crazy old man, why do you even hold any interest in the Bible at all? Why do you have any interest in Jesus if the rest of it is bunk? Why the fascination? What special set of keys do you think Jesus has that keeps you interested? If you honestly believe that it's nothing more than "loving thy neighbor as thyself" while taking care of the widows and orphans, why spend so much time studying scripture that you keep deeming as bunk? What are you looking for or trying to prove?

Sure... Great questions actually...

First i don't think Paul was an imposter, more like he had his own agenda..... but i do think he created his own religion from a false claim that he was visited by Jesus on the road to Damascus and suddenly had a change of heart from his usual percecutions. I believe he took advantage of the fact that many people believed in Jesus, and made up his claim about this visitation so he could gain his own following like Jesus had, which he did eventually. He was the first to claim Jesus was equal to God, which Jesus never said.... This possibly came from John's books, but thats up for debate simply because we don't know whos writing came first. We only know both writers material came from around the first century.

That combined with the fact that some Christians actually attempt to counter the words of Jesus with Paul, convinced me he was a fraud

Now John is a different story entirely... His gospel holds the words of Jesus, but its also full of his own narration. IF one reads his gospel one can clearly see he was a story teller (not meant to say a liar)... So while his gospel is important because its an eyewitness testamony... it can be complicated to distingish between what Jesus said according to him, and what John said. And of course his testamony conflicts with the synoptics in many cases as well.

Also his books were written well after the life of Jesus... Now normally this wouldn't be an issue... but IF one considers the contents of Revelation its very possible his mind wasn't in the greatest condition... and might have possibly been failing him as he aged. This is just a theory of course... but theres quite a difference in the contents of his gospel when compared with his other books.

As far as revelation is concerned... this book was written when he was apparently on the island of Patmos which was a prison of sorts. Basically the place he was banished to because of roman percecutions, or so the story goes. When he actually wrote the book he was upwards of 90 years old... again this isn't always a problem... but in some cases age can be an issue...

The reason i believe revelation to be nothing more then a story is because:

1. his age

2. The claim that it was "dictated" so to speak... by Jesus... yet it sounds nothing like how Jesus spoke... and reads nothing like how he spoke in john, Luke, Matthew or Mark...

Now back to the age thing... I work with the elderly almost every day of my life... i see what some older people go through and im sure many people on this forum know exactly what im talking about. I've seen the extreme halucinations, and people litterally speaking to absolulely no one.... having full conversations with walls.

In this age we call it Dementia... and it takes on various forms

As a matter of fact, i created a thread which has a similar theme...

Do we create our own Hell?

Have a read, watch the video... its an example of a lady that has Dementia

The contents of Revelation seems like it was written by someone that is having some extemely serious halucinations

And as far as the OT God is concerned... I have at least 10 threads on that subject...

Feel free to look them over...

And by the way im not looking to prove anything... scripture study is a hobby of mine... And its not only biblical scriptures i study... though i do tend to focus on the gospels because i believe they hold the keys to understanding God through his son... and they conflict with the rest of the bible on so many aspects

Other religions don't have arguements within their Texts like christian scripture does... i've honestly never found myself argueing with a Buddhist, or a hindu