Not Even the White House Knows the Drones' Body Count

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101

Originally posted by justwokeup

The problem is censorship of war reporting, it should be illegal. Average joe in the street should see the spilled children's brains and entrails while he's eating his TV dinner. Then we'll really evaluate whether its necessary or not.

I agree. Let's put on TV news of the carnage wrought by radical Islamist suicide bombers all over the world. Show the world the innocent, men, women and children's brains all spilling out from the carnages wrought by those monsters.

Let's show Iran's use of mere children being blown up to clear mine fields for that soldiers can cross into Iraq terroritories during their war with Iraq.

Let's show Syria's regime's torturings, execution, butchering and slaughtering of innocent men, women and children for the past decades..

Want more? Let's not be bias. I am all for end of wars. But it takes one to start and another to end it. Screaming and tearing your heart against the good guys aint gonna stop wars.

How many drone kills were there? Why not ask - how many innocent men, women and children around the world had been saved from those known terrorists done dead by drones?

edit on 30-9-2012 by SeekerofTruth101 because: (no reason given)

Ooh Ooh! Can we also show how many people were killed by US weapons in the Iran/Iraq war, using maps given to Saddam by the US?

Ooh ooh! Can we also show all the innocent people tortured to death by the US installed dictator in Iran??

Ooh ooh! Can we also show all people killed by Pinochet, after the US helped him kill Allende?

How about all the babies killed during the firebombing of Japan?

Or the civilians killed in Dresden?

Should I go on?

reply to post by Swills


Remember, not knowing the body count isn't important to Obama.

U.S. Drone Policy: Standing Near Terrorists Makes You A Terrorist

Virtually every time the U.S. fires a missile from a drone and ends the lives of Muslims, American media outlets dutifully trumpet in headlines that the dead were ”militants” – even though those media outlets literally do not have the slightest idea of who was actually killed. They simply cite always-unnamed “officials” claiming that the dead were “militants.” It’s the most obvious and inexcusable form of rank propaganda: media outlets continuously propagating a vital claim without having the slightest idea if it’s true.

This practice continues even though key Obama officials have been caught lying, a term used advisedly, about how many civilians they’re killing. I’ve written and said many times before that in American media discourse, the definition of “militant” is any human being whose life is extinguished when an American missile or bomb detonates (that term was even used when Anwar Awlaki’s 16-year-old American son, Abdulrahman, was killed by a U.S. drone in Yemen two weeks after a drone killed his father, even though nobody claims the teenager was anything but completely innocent: “Another U.S. Drone Strike Kills Militants in Yemen”).

This morning, the New York Times has a very lengthy and detailed article about President Obama’s counter-Terrorism policies based on interviews with “three dozen of his current and former advisers.” I’m writing separately about the numerous revelations contained in that article, but want specifically to highlight this one vital passage about how the Obama administration determines who is a “militant.” The article explains that Obama’s rhetorical emphasis on avoiding civilian deaths “did not significantly change” the drone program, because Obama himself simply expanded the definition of a “militant” to ensure that it includes virtually everyone killed by his drone strikes. Just read this remarkable passage:

************

Mr. Obama embraced a disputed method for counting civilian casualties that did little to box him in. It in effect counts all military-age males in a strike zone as combatants, according to several administration officials, unless there is explicit intelligence posthumously proving them innocent.

Counterterrorism officials insist this approach is one of simple logic: people in an area of known terrorist activity, or found with a top Qaeda operative, are probably up to no good. “Al Qaeda is an insular, paranoid organization — innocent neighbors don’t hitchhike rides in the back of trucks headed for the border with guns and bombs,” said one official, who requested anonymity to speak about what is still a classified program.

This counting method may partly explain the official claims of extraordinarily low collateral deaths. In a speech last year Mr. Brennan, Mr. Obama’s trusted adviser, said that not a single noncombatant had been killed in a year of strikes. And in a recent interview, a senior administration official said that the number of civilians killed in drone strikes in Pakistan under Mr. Obama was in the “single digits” — and that independent counts of scores or hundreds of civilian deaths unwittingly draw on false propaganda claims by militants.

But in interviews, three former senior intelligence officials expressed disbelief that the number could be so low. The C.I.A. accounting has so troubled some administration officials outside the agency that they have brought their concerns to the White House. One called it “guilt by association” that has led to “deceptive” estimates of civilian casualties.

“It bothers me when they say there were seven guys, so they must all be militants,” the official said. “They count the corpses and they’re not really sure who they are.”

************

I still run into people who know NOTHING about this.

reply to post by loam


I'd honestly ask you if you think Romney is gonna start talking about civilian casualties?

Those are your choices, and considering how Romney is sucking up to Israel re: Iran, and his team is pushing to restart the torture shops, well... chances of Romney MORE of a # about civilians is pretty darn low.

In the final analysis, I would readily admit that drones are NOT the long term answer to the war on terrorism.

How do you kill an idealogy with bullets and weapons of war? You CANT

The only way to battle such idealogies that the radical islamists and anti amercans perpetrate and progandaize is to fight it with the truth, correct and better idealogies.

Many Islamic nations had done their won soul searching, and so had muslims start to wake up to the misuse of their peaceful religion by evil ones to hurt and harm others.

The village imans that are far from central authorities must be rein in, and checked for their credentials, and listed as apostates if they dare instruct wrong teachings. No man, absolutely no man, even a mere imam, has the right to decide on war of jihad. Prophet Muhammad had taught that only an assembly of muslims can, and that involves the state with responsibly elected leaders or supported constitutional Monarchs who follows the true teachings.

When those radical islamists are stripped of their support base, they will be unmasked as who they really are - power and glory seeking criminal brigands, common thieves and murderers that must be despised and brought to justice at every opportunity by mankind.

But in the meantime, drones are the most efficient weapons to eliminate the brigand's threat against humanity till the necessary changes are made, with includes ALL religions and their followers, not just Islam. No mainstream religion condones the murder of innocent humans.

Only wild beasts do, and such confirmed beasts will be exterminated where trial is not possible due to the costs of further lives being destroyed if attempts were made to capture them. Futhermore, they had declared war on mankind, thus they are war combatants and will be treated as such.

reply to post by longlostbrother


If you wish to make illogical, senseless and unsupported by evidences or half truths of anti american claims, which deviates from the basis of this thread, it is your right and my right not to respond to you.

Cheers.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
reply to post by longlostbrother

 

If you wish to make illogical, senseless and unsupported by evidences or half truths of anti american claims, which deviates from the basis of this thread, it is your right and my right not to respond to you.

Cheers.

umm... which of those, "claims" is unsupported by evidence?

I'm certainly not anti-American by the way, I just read a lot of history books.

reply to post by longlostbrother


There is a DIFFERENCE between mere reading of 'many' history books, AND, COMPREHENDING them.

And there are MAJOR differences between reading well reseached objective scholarly historical dissections, AND, mere subjective opinions written by journalists and bloggers or some rant by dementia'ed or disgruntled public servant fired for his idiocies and incompetences.

May my pointers help you back on the track to seek for truths.

reply to post by longlostbrother

Originally posted by longlostbrother
I'd honestly ask you if you think Romney is gonna start talking about civilian casualties?

Those are your choices, and considering how Romney is sucking up to Israel re: Iran, and his team is pushing to restart the torture shops, well... chances of Romney MORE of a # about civilians is pretty darn low.

Probably not, particularly when there is such refusal to hold Obama (and previously Bush) accountable for these acts.

If you voted for the reelection of the first bozo, and now intend to re-elect the current bozo, then IT'S ENTIRELY YOUR FAULT!

Using as an argument that you can't vote for someone for what they *might* do, when you won't hold someone accountable for what they've already *done*, is the very reason we've jumped off this cliff.

Prosecute Bush *And* Obama for Torture

A couple weeks ago, Human Right Watch issued a report calling for a criminal investigation of Bush administration officials for the illegal regime of torture and detainee mistreatment implemented following the attack of September 11th. The report recommends the investigation of President George W. Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and CIA Director George Tenet, but also should include an examination of “the actions of the executive branch, the CIA, the military, and Congress” to find all those responsible.

...

The report focuses on investigations of Bush era abuses and individuals For the most part, the Obama administration appears in the report as having neglected its responsibility to enforce the law and initiate these criminal investigations. The extent of holding his predecessors accountable for these horrible crimes came in 2009 when Eric Holder appointed US Attorney John Durham to investigate detainee abuse but limited the probe to “unauthorized” acts, effectively eliminating any possibility of prosecuting Bush officials who authorized torture. “The Obama administration has failed to meet US obligations under the Convention against Torture to investigate acts of torture and other ill-treatment of detainees,” the report reads.

... it calls very little if any attention to the fact that Obama has continued many Bush era detainee abuses. As I wrote here, “not only has Obama decreed such ‘looking back’ not take place, he has continued the abuse and outlawry himself.” In the black site run by U.S. Special Operations forces adjacent to Bagram facilities, reports of “sleep deprivation, holding detainees in cold cells, forced nudity, physical abuse, detaining individuals in isolation cells for longer than 30 days, and restricting the access of the International Committee of the Red Cross” have been apparent since Obama took office. Two teenagers even, Issa Mohammad, then 17, and Abdul Rashid, who said he was younger than 16, told the Washington Post that they were subjected to all of these abuses, including being punched and slapped in the face. One prisoner at this site, which the US military denied even existed, lost an entire row of teeth from being hit in the face with the butt of gun by an American soldier while in custody. This is all in addition to the fact that the Obama administration has denied detainees at both Guantanamo and Bagram the right to challenge their detention. Furthermore, Obama has more than just failed to fully commit to criminal investigations of Bush crimes, he has actively protected these Bush officials from judicial scrutiny by invoking states secrets privileges as well as pressuring other governments to stop investigating these crimes, which ought to be considered obstruction of justice.

Yeah, Romney is who we should fear.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
reply to post by longlostbrother

 

There is a DIFFERENCE between mere reading of 'many' history books, AND, COMPREHENDING them.

And there are MAJOR differences between reading well reseached objective scholarly historical dissections, AND, mere subjective opinions written by journalists and bloggers or some rant by dementia'ed or disgruntled public servant fired for his idiocies and incompetences.

May my pointers help you back on the track to seek for truths.

edit on 30-9-2012 by SeekerofTruth101 because: (no reason given)

riiiiight... so the history you've read has all been right, mine wrong... tell me again which of my "claims" is wrong...?

reply to post by loam


I don't know... I See the point you're trying to make, but at the same time, there's two candidates running for President; neither of them, quite obviously, are going to be exactly what you want, yes? so then it's either never vote, unless you find you political soulmate, or make compromises and be realistic...

Which are you going to do?

This is gutless terrorism,the operators of these things could suck back a big mac meal in one hand and take out a small town in the other..

reply to post by longlostbrother

Originally posted by longlostbrother
...there's two candidates running for President...

Actually, there are more.

Originally posted by longlostbrother
Which are you going to do?

I'll tell you what I'm NOT going to do....

Vote for a criminal....whether he has an R or a D behind his name.

reply to post by longlostbrother


It's not my job to feed you, more so on truths. It would never be appreciated anyway. Find out yourself and you will treasure the knowledge found, for it came from your own effort to illuminate your own mind from fallacies.

But still it is your right to spew your anti americanism here. You aint the first to do so here, no the last. And equally my right to respond or not to respond further, as you are already deviating from the basis of this thread and taking up much of space here and my time unproductively.

reply to post by Swills


are you kidding me, single digits.

u.s. drone operators double tap targets.

first they fire one missile, wait until rescuers start dragging bodies out and then fire a second.

there are reports that rescuers have to wait 6-7 hours before they can start helping any survivors or injured.

civilians are so in fear of the strike zones, that they hide in their houses for hours.

if that's not terror, what is. not being able to walk around in public and looking up in the air constantly, feeling that a missile is about to hit you.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
reply to post by longlostbrother

 

It's not my job to feed you, more so on truths. It would never be appreciated anyway. Find out yourself and you will treasure the knowledge found, for it came from your own effort to illuminate your own mind from fallacies.

But still it is your right to spew your anti americanism here. You aint the first to do so here, no the last. And equally my right to respond or not to respond further, as you are already deviating from the basis of this thread and taking up much of space here and my time unproductively.

Right, so your just making crap up.

Good luck with that...

For the record:

US coup in Iran:

en.wikipedia.org...'%C3%A9tat

Any reputable history book of that will detail the bloodshed brought on by that US/UK backed coup.

US role in the Allende coup, which installed Pinochet:

en.wikipedia.org...'%C3%A9tat#U.S._role

US role helping Saddam in Iran/Iraq war

Involved was crucial military aid, sometimes overt, more often clandestine, ranging from openly “loaned” French Super Etendard fighter-bombers to covert American jamming of Tehran’s radar and furnishing of spy-satellite photographs that pinpointed Iranian targets.

en.wikipedia.org...
www.crimesofwar.org...
www.gwu.edu...

Firebombing of Tokyo

The bombing of Tokyo, often referred to as a "firebombing", was conducted as part of the air raids on Japan by the United States Army Air Forces during the Pacific campaigns of World War II. The U.S. mounted a small-scale raid on Tokyo in April 1942, with large effects on morale. Strategic bombing and urban area bombing began in 1944 after the long-range B-29 Superfortress bomber entered service, first deployed from China and thereafter the Mariana Islands. B-29 raids from those islands began on 17 November 1944 and lasted until 15 August 1945, the day Japan capitulated.[1] The Operation Meetinghouse air raid of 9–10 March 1945 was later estimated to be the single most destructive bombing raid in history.

Hey look a dead baby:

en.wikipedia.org...:Tokyo_kushu_1945-2.jpg

Estimates of the number killed range between 80,000 and 200,000, a higher death toll than that produced by the dropping of the Atomic Bomb on Hiroshima or Nagasaki six months later.

www.eyewitnesstohistory.com...

Bombing of Dresden:
en.wikipedia.org...

Dresden as a war crime:
en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by longlostbrother


And the Rape of Nanking. Oh, wait, that was committed by the Japanese, not the US. Forget about that.

How about the bombing of Rotterdam? Oh, the Nazis did that. Forget it.

Hmmmm.....I know!! Hue City during the Tet Offensive! Teachers, police, politicians, civic leaders, professors were taken out and executed. Damn, that was done by the VC/NVA. Sorry, thought I had another one for your list.

Originally posted by jerico65
reply to post by longlostbrother

 

And the Rape of Nanking. Oh, wait, that was committed by the Japanese, not the US. Forget about that.

How about the bombing of Rotterdam? Oh, the Nazis did that. Forget it.

Hmmmm.....I know!! Hue City during the Tet Offensive! Teachers, police, politicians, civic leaders, professors were taken out and executed. Damn, that was done by the VC/NVA. Sorry, thought I had another one for your list.

Sorry, were you thinking that I thought that ONLY the US committed atrocities, because that would be absurd.

My point is that the US has been involved, as much as the horrible Muslims, in tragedy and murder and killing of civilians...