Real Christianity = not being a Christian

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by LeSigh

 

And yet you yourself fall within one of these denominations, of which you think your right, and all the others are wrong, and all the others think you are wrong, and only they are right. As I child, I loved everyone, and did not divide or think in terms of ..."when enough people leave to do their own thing ......"

The Orthodox Church isn't a denomination. That is reserved for such institutions that broke away many times over from the RCC- who schismed from the Church (Five patriarchs- one removed himself from the others- the rest of the Church was still together.)

As a child, everything was already united and there was no need for faith, praxis, etc ...for glory and awe of existence was already self evident.

The purpose of creation is to glorify God and be united with Him. We are all born with the capacity to attain theosis- to partake in the energies of God.

As a child, I was not a sinner. Nor can I look at a newborn and say "look at that sinner baby."

The Orthodox don't say that either. We don't believe that people are born sinners. However, we do believe that we all suffer from the consequence of original sin (death). We are cleansed of the consequence of original sin in our baptism- which is life in Christ. However, anyone who 'misses the mark', which is anything which keeps us from being united to Christ via thoughts, actions, etcetera- is a sinner.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by LeSigh

 

Every Tradition of the Church is for the salvation of everyone in it. It is dangerous to abandon that race to leave.

And that tradition says we don't have to worry about saving the Earth?

The Church isn't closed to people who want to become part of it. Salvation is for everyone who wants it. However, it isn't found outside of the Body of Christ. You're more than welcome to come and see.

God is the light of 'heaven' and the fire of 'hell'. He doesn't change. It's all about your perception and disposition towards God.

St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: “…those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God…But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!”

reply to post by LeSigh



The purpose of creation is to glorify God and be united with Him. We are all born with the capacity to attain theosis- to partake in the energies of God.

And this is how we're supposed to do it, right? Someone previously posted a summary of the philosophies that are apparently held sacred by Christianity:

First they teach us the theory of the soul, or how to divide the entirety of oneself into pieces in order to devalue certain parts of that entirety, namely the physical aspects. Second, all natural instincts are sin and shouldn't be sublimated, but extirpated. Third, that we must love our neighbor and do service to him before we do service to ourselves. Fourth, that we should deny this life in a quest for the next. etc. etc. etc.

Right, okay.

We don't believe that people are born sinners.

So everyone else is lying?

We are cleansed of the consequence of original sin in our baptism- which is life in Christ.

So what's original sin? And how come Jesus is the only guy who can help us out with that?

which is anything which keeps us from being united to Christ via thoughts, actions, etcetera- is a sinner.

The very philosophy by which you claim to avoid this, will lead you to it. Besides, how is it that we must avoid the seven deadly sins to be rewarded with a particular selection of those sins, otherwise we are punished with the other selection of those sins? It's a circle.

The "Church" isn't a building, or priests, or a congregation, or rituals. The Church are those who believe in the salvation of Christ, nothing more. All the stuff the Catholics do are unnecessary, if not corruptions.

reply to post by LeSigh

The Orthodox Church isn't a denomination. That is reserved for such institutions that broke away many times over from the RCC- who schismed from the Church (Five patriarchs- one removed himself from the others- the rest of the Church was still together.)

and yet we can find historical and modern claims/testimonies of people receiving the Holy Spirit and transformation across different denominations. God isn't looking down and saying "Your not Orthodox so to hell with you."

And there is just as much ego, corruption, and madness found in the Orthodox church as there is in RCC, Baptist, Lutheran, etc .... so again, putting all your trust, faith, hope, and healing in a church run by men .....is folly.

The purpose of creation is to glorify God and be united with Him. We are all born with the capacity to attain theosis- to partake in the energies of God.

If you were well versed in the Philokalia, Dark Night of the Soul, The Cloud of Unknowing, The Ladder of Divine Ascent, and many various writings by Saints who reached Theosis, you would know that one of the stations necessary to be reached is the original childlike awareness that we had as children, and furthermore the unknowing of all mental images and programming ....

My point in this thread is that we are not labels. A label is an idea, a thought, and we transcend all of that.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by LeSigh

 

And this is how we're supposed to do it, right? Someone previously posted a summary of the philosophies that are apparently held sacred by Christianity:

I don't agree with that summary of philosophies. Salvation to us isn't merely spiritual but physical as well. The idea of spiritual only is more of a gnostic thing, I'm afraid. And, if one is living their life in the Church- their natural instincts are sublimated. I agree with the neighbor thing. And the fourth point is an oversimplification of the concept that this life is death- and the next world isn't simply a future event but a now event.

Me: We don't believe that people are born sinners.

So everyone else is lying?

Misguided in their wrong belief. Your 'everyone else' isn't believing the way Christians did from the beginning.

Me: We are cleansed of the consequence of original sin in our baptism- which is life in Christ.

So what's original sin? And how come Jesus is the only guy who can help us out with that?

Adam and Eve sinning and bringing death into the world. We don't share their sin, but we do have the consequence of their sin (death). Humanity- before the fall into sin (missing the mark)- was created with the potential to become more.

"God became man so that man may become like God." ~St. Athanasius

Interestingly, it is a pious opinion in Orthodoxy that even if Adam and Eve had not sinned- and death had not entered the world- that Christ still would have come in the flesh in order to help us attain theosis. Plus, it wasn't too late for Adam and Eve- even then. In the icon of the Resurrection- Christ is depicted trampling the gates of Hades and lifting Adam and Eve from their graves. Christ destroyed death. It is even mentioned in the New Testament how after the Resurrection- many of the righteous dead were resurrected and appeared to many people. Like Adam, we are dead in our sins, but through Christ (the New Adam) we are brought to life.

The very philosophy by which you claim to avoid this, will lead you to it. Besides, how is it that we must avoid the seven deadly sins to be rewarded with a particular selection of those sins, otherwise we are punished with the other selection of those sins? It's a circle.

Eh?

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by LeSigh

 

and yet we can find historical and modern claims/testimonies of people receiving the Holy Spirit and transformation across different denominations. God isn't looking down and saying "Your not Orthodox so to hell with you."

And there is just as much ego, corruption, and madness found in the Orthodox church as there is in RCC, Baptist, Lutheran, etc .... so again, putting all your trust, faith, hope, and healing in a church run by men .....is folly.

I do see your point. However, we also say that 'we know where the Church is but only God knows everyone who is in it'. God will guide those who truly seek Him to Himself. That doesn't excuse us from doing what we know we are to do, though. Everything in this world is run by men. However, the Holy Spirit can work through them. Going Lone Ranger is even more mad.

If you were well versed in the Philokalia, Dark Night of the Soul, The Cloud of Unknowing, The Ladder of Divine Ascent, and many various writings by Saints who reached Theosis, you would know that one of the stations necessary to be reached is the original childlike awareness that we had as children, and furthermore the unknowing of all mental images and programming ....

I am familiar with them, having read them. We baptise and commune infants. They come to Christ in a childlike state of awareness. They are raised to live in Christ's Church. I'm simply not seeing how that isn't the best way.

My point in this thread is that we are not labels. A label is an idea, a thought, and we transcend all of that.

Of course people are more than labels. However, I wouldn't want to deny the label of Christian, because I would see it as denying Christ. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

reply to post by LeSigh


Has it never occurred to you that if someone truly believes and wants something badly enough, they will create in in their own mind? As in, they will develop a slight schizophrenic disorder, and their faith is all they need to keep it active?

I see no evidence suggesting that Christians are experiencing anything more than this. And because they want something to believe in, they choose to think it's "God" rather than just themselves believing until it becomes real in their heads.

reply to post by LeSigh

Everything in this world is run by men. However, the Holy Spirit can work through them. Going Lone Ranger is even more mad.

Each individuals path to God is alone and personal. I know of a Christian Mystic who started reaching glimpses of theosis where him and God where One ....and no matter who he went to, nobody could guide him or tell him about this. The Orthodox told him to go to a monastery to work this out and have guidance, but he had a family. Eventually he was put in touch with a hermit who had reached Theosis in solitude, (going lone ranger) and guided him on how to also, in solitude, integrate these experiences into his life and path.

Ultimately, being with people is being with people, however our relationship with God is a one on one loan ranger deal.

I am familiar with them, having read them. We baptise and commune infants. They come to Christ in a childlike state of awareness. They are raised to live in Christ's Church. I'm simply not seeing how that isn't the best way.

CHild babptism started historically because of a theological issue with the question of, "what happens to the fate of a childs soul when they die". So the church began to baptize infants. However, in the Bible, everyone baptized is an adult and has logic/reason, and has an understanding of what Baptism symbolizes. Eventually after baptism, the Holy Spirit descends on that person and slays the ego, hence the term to be Born of water and of the spirit or to be born again.

Child Baptizm is a waster because the ego hasn't formed yet, sin hasn't happened yet, and folly and turning back to God hasn't happened yet.

Of course people are more than labels. However, I wouldn't want to deny the label of Christian, because I would see it as denying Christ. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

In my case, I remember pre-existing prior to the physical body. So people on this realm call me by my earth name ...which is not who I am, they label me as male gender, however that is not who I am, they label me by creed, skin color, intelligence, etc ...but that is not who I am ....

Ultimately it comes down to this. The thought of a tree, is not the same as an actual tree. For a tree has existed, does exist, and can continue to exist devoid of what anyone thinks of it. The label of some thing is not the same as the actual some thing.

Furhtermore ...those who followed Christ were originally called "follower's of the way." The term Christian was placed upon those who followed "The Way" and as deemed derrogatory back then.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by LeSigh

 

Has it never occurred to you that if someone truly believes and wants something badly enough, they will create in in their own mind? As in, they will develop a slight schizophrenic disorder, and their faith is all they need to keep it active?

I see no evidence suggesting that Christians are experiencing anything more than this. And because they want something to believe in, they choose to think it's "God" rather than just themselves believing until it becomes real in their heads.

Has it occurred to you that it might not work the way you assume at all? I won't argue the point with you, because I refuse to argue the existence of God with others on principle. Only God can draw people to Himself.

Originally posted by LeSigh
Interestingly, it is a pious opinion in Orthodoxy that even if Adam and Eve had not sinned- and death had not entered the world- that Christ still would have come in the flesh in order to help us attain theosis.

This doesn't make sense. They were already divine. That is why they were able to walk beside God in the garden. How much more theosis did they need?

reply to post by dominicus


Even hermits are part of the Church. They have to confess to take the sacraments. Solitude and rejecting the life of the Church (our monastics and ascetics are very much a vital part of the Church) aren't the same thing. Yes, we are judged individually as to whether or not we finished our race. However, everyone in the Church is in the ark of salvation, so to speak, therefore it does have a corporate element. Divine Liturgy is corporate worship. Just as, though we don't bear the blame for Original Sin- we corporately receive the penalty for the sin (death)- why would salvation be different? We all will literally stand before the light of Christ together- whether that is heaven or hell to you depends on you alone and how you chose to relate to God. However, it is corporate in the sense that we all will be experiencing this together- and Christ's Church gives us the way- the vehicle (if you will) of experiencing this through Him. We aren't alone.

Originally posted by LeSigh

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by LeSigh

 

Has it never occurred to you that if someone truly believes and wants something badly enough, they will create in in their own mind? As in, they will develop a slight schizophrenic disorder, and their faith is all they need to keep it active?

I see no evidence suggesting that Christians are experiencing anything more than this. And because they want something to believe in, they choose to think it's "God" rather than just themselves believing until it becomes real in their heads.

Has it occurred to you that it might not work the way you assume at all? I won't argue the point with you, because I refuse to argue the existence of God with others on principle. Only God can draw people to Himself.

I fail to see how it might not work the way I suggested, considering all you did was offer the possibility then immediately fall back on one of the standard Christian Cop-Outs.

When you're ready to offer a logical rebuttal of my suggestion, I'll listen. Until then, I take it that you've forfeited the discussion, which tells me I have more of a point than you do.

Originally posted by daskakik

Originally posted by LeSigh
Interestingly, it is a pious opinion in Orthodoxy that even if Adam and Eve had not sinned- and death had not entered the world- that Christ still would have come in the flesh in order to help us attain theosis.

This doesn't make sense. They were already divine. That is why they were able to walk beside God in the garden. How much more theosis did they need?

They were not. They were created with the potential to become like God. They began walking with God and 'missed the mark' by becoming distracted, so to speak. Salvation is a continual process.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

Originally posted by LeSigh

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by LeSigh

 

Has it never occurred to you that if someone truly believes and wants something badly enough, they will create in in their own mind? As in, they will develop a slight schizophrenic disorder, and their faith is all they need to keep it active?

I see no evidence suggesting that Christians are experiencing anything more than this. And because they want something to believe in, they choose to think it's "God" rather than just themselves believing until it becomes real in their heads.

Has it occurred to you that it might not work the way you assume at all? I won't argue the point with you, because I refuse to argue the existence of God with others on principle. Only God can draw people to Himself.

I fail to see how it might not work the way I suggested, considering all you did was offer the possibility then immediately fall back on one of the standard Christian Cop-Outs.

When you're ready to offer a logical rebuttal of my suggestion, I'll listen. Until then, I take it that you've forfeited the discussion, which tells me I have more of a point than you do.

edit on 29-9-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

You want to argue the existence of God. It is pointless to do so. If you dislike that, it really isn't my problem. I won't be baited into it. Thanks.

reply to post by LeSigh

They were not. They were created with the potential to become like God.

How were they supposed to become like "God"? They were naked in the middle of a garden with "God" paying them visits like daily sessions with an all-powerful psychiatrist. Were they waiting to evolve or something?

reply to post by LeSigh


I'm not arguing the existence of a higher power. I'm arguing the existence of YOUR higher power. Surely for something that's so obvious, you would have convinced me by now - and yet you haven't. That doesn't seem like a good sign.

Originally posted by LeSigh
They were not. They were created with the potential to become like God. They began walking with God and 'missed the mark' by becoming distracted, so to speak. Salvation is a continual process.

That is a twist to justify the existence of Jesus if I ever saw one. I believe that the text plainly states that they were created in his image and that they later fell from grace.

reply to post by daskakik

Originally posted by daskakik

Originally posted by LeSigh
They were not. They were created with the potential to become like God. They began walking with God and 'missed the mark' by becoming distracted, so to speak. Salvation is a continual process.

That is a twist to justify the existence of Jesus if I ever saw one. I believe that the text plainly states that they were created in his image and that they later fell from grace.

Exactly, Daska. Thank you. This is a part of my difficulty with this faith - half of it is interpretation, and an absolute truth does not require interpretation. Did the Gettysburg address need interpretation? No, it's perfectly obvious.

So why does the Bible require so much interpretation, if it's so absolute and truthful?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


It's pretty simple. The Church predates the Bible. One must either accept that the Church which put the Christian Bible together interpreted them correctly, or one doesn't. If one doesn't want to accept how the Church interprets the scriptures, yet still wants to use the scriptures to make up their own way- nobody is stopping them. People do it all the time by rejecting all Tradition but the scriptures. However, it really doesn't make sense for one to accept the scriptures, yet reject the interpretations given by those who put them together in the first place. If I couldn't believe the one, I certainly wouldn't believe the other.