Father Figures, Free-Will and Predestination: A Conundrum, page 2

reply to post by NiNjABackflip

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The best response I have is ripped from a film, the quote in the film being something from Meister Eckhart:

"You know what he [Eckhart] said? The only thing that burns in Hell is the part of you that won't let go of your life; your memories, your attachments. They burn 'em all away. But they're not punishing you, he said. They're freeing your soul. ... If you're frightened of dying and holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the Earth"

- Danny Aiello, "Jacob's Ladder"

Originally posted by this_is_who_we_are
reply to post by GeneralMishka

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I gave you a star for that. But the answer to the predestination/free-will paradox remains... well... unanswered.

Perhaps the paradox exists because of the way FREE WILL and 'determinism' are being interpreted through the lens of too many modes of operation...it looks confusing, because...it is being set against faulty 'pivots'...i.e. time, religion...then the 'blanket' of FREE WILL and determinism are thrown over these pivots...and the tent looks like something - which it isn't...

There is no paradox...

A99

reply to post by akushla99

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Kind of like "Plato's Allegory of the Cave"?

Allegory of the Cave
en.wikipedia.org...

If my comparison is valid, then what you said makes perfect sense to me.

reply to post by NiNjABackflip

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Footnote to my last response:

I'm also reminded of the film adaptation of the Richard Matheson novel "What Dreams May Come"

What Dreams May Come
en.wikipedia.org...(film)


Disclaimer: A good film. I give it 3 out of four stars. It does however have some awkward moments of hokey dialog. Conversely, Robin Williams performance is outstanding, as well as that of Max Von Sydow. And the special effects are unique.

Aside from my film review, the themes of the film have always stuck with me in a philosophical/religious sense.

Originally posted by this_is_who_we_are
reply to post by akushla99

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Kind of like "Plato's Allegory of the Cave"?

Allegory of the Cave
en.wikipedia.org...

If my comparison is valid, then what you said makes perfect sense to me.

edit on 9/30/2012 by this_is_who_we_are because: typo

Yes, but also the allegory of all humans to complicate very simple principles...

We are not automatons; we are not even 'complex' automatons...(although, it could be said, that some people act like robots)...
Determinism (in its simplest form) is a conveniently polarised position to FREE WILL...but this deterministic view is shallow and without substance...
If determinism is viewed as the sum total of all possible and probable outcomes, it makes more sense...since this is the way it is...FREE WILL 'determines' the path to one outcome or another...and to some extent, the choices emanating from FREE WILL are sometimes not very well thought out, or, are too influenced by others' agendas etc...and open to the claim of predestination (after the fact, of course!)...

A99

I've the habit of considering the "Father" symbol as being what could be termed the "Super Ego", or the "conscience"? KInd of the ultimate ideals one has? They can be often rather unrealistic, so not completely possible in this world, therefore take on a rather severe or over-demanding nature (especially when young).

Captain Kirk was an avatar of my Father figure when I was young! My dad took off when I was little.

Then I gained a stepfather when I was 14 and really admired him and embraced him as my ultimate father figure.
He is a Psychoanalyst and Professor of Philosophy though, and as I became an adult, these values that were so exclusively intellectual weren't realistic for me at all, as I am very physical and sensual in nature.

One night I had a dream, in which I saw my head from above and saw it open up and expose my brain, and a voice said loudly "Your Father is going to die!"
At the time, I wondered if it might mean my stepdad would literally pass away...
But this was soon after I changed countries, and was about to undergo a lot of inner changes, and challenges to my previous values and views.

Later I became attached to someone else as my ideal Father symbol, Buck Brannaman, a horse trainer. He just embodied a lot of characteristics that I idealize and would like to integrate and develop in myself.
This is him and I

A movie was made about him recently, that was able to illustrate the qualities he has which are admirable- a really effective mix of strength of will with sensitivity and compassion!
A lot of the significance of my own work with horses is spiritual and psychological for me, in the way Freud used the metaphor of a horse and rider, I see at as development of a collaborative relationship between my intellect and emotions, therefore, a horse trainer is a very effective figurehead for a super conscience!

reply to post by Bluesma

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You know the real horse-whisperer; that's pretty neat. He seems like a great man and probably a very ideal father figure. I wonder if you were predestined to cross paths? or if you found him on your own?

Originally posted by NiNjABackflip
reply to post by Bluesma

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You know the real horse-whisperer; that's pretty neat. He seems like a great man and probably a very ideal father figure. I wonder if you were predestined to cross paths? or if you found him on your own?

I don't know. I just saw one day that a trainer was coming to do a clinic here, and I signed up because he was American (and being in France, I wanted to work with someone who could speak english for once!). But I didn't know who he was at that time!
He really IS an amazing person- I don't mean just with horses, I mean his ability to read people and know how to interact with each one individually, is uncanny.

reply to post by akushla99

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I started thing of String Theory and M-Theory while reading your post. And that number 11 thingy I'm so fond of.

And of course the Vulcan "IDIC":

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
en.memory-alpha.org...

Fascinating...

reply to post by Bluesma

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Thank you for your post. More food for thought. The ego as father figure. That kind of gets back to the "Id Monster" idea from "Forbidden Planet" in some meaningful way. Perhaps the Id representing evil, the devil, and the like. But I'm sure this is all rather elementary.




- PS

I like the way the place the two of you are standing in, in the second photo, reminds me of the Hangar Deck of any one of a number of starships.

Originally posted by this_is_who_we_are
reply to post by Bluesma


I like the way the place the two of you are standing in, in the second photo, reminds me of the Hangar Deck of any one of a number of starships.

Hahaha! That made me laugh! We're actually on horseback, but you're right. He even has a Kirk-ish type serious look in that one!

Originally posted by this_is_who_we_are
reply to post by akushla99

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I started thing of String Theory and M-Theory while reading your post. And that number 11 thingy I'm so fond of.

And of course the Vulcan "IDIC":

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
en.memory-alpha.org...

Fascinating...

edit on 9/30/2012 by this_is_who_we_are because: typo

I know very basic elements of String & M...they really, in no way, inform what I communicate (in as much as, the realisation of what I have explained arrived much before the appearance of these theories)...

I'm not a huge Trekkie fan (although I love the movies and episodes I have seen)...so I can't comment on this...if it makes sense to you, then so be it...

'Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations' is closer to what I have explained...this ties in with the given gift of FREE WILL, and the ability to choose (at all levels), and the reason situations turn out as they do, positively or negatively...the process works in any direction...all outcomes exist as potentialities until they are broached...other outcomes effectively 'collapse' along the way to this one outcome...under certain circumstances, you could commit a murder (even though in the present moment, you would swear that you would not)...given the correct circumstances (potentialities), and you (to choose a path towards an outcome), it is all within the realms of possibility...

A99

Originally posted by GeneralMishka
You are programmed, influenced by your faith in God

Christopher - Christ
Pike- Fish
'Fish Christ'

James-Jew apostle
Tiberius- Greek
Kirk- Scottish for Church
'Jew and gentile Church'

reply to post by GeneralMishka

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Your post (referenced above as the quoted post) keeps sticking in my mind. I wasn't aware of most of the correlations. Except the name Christopher correlating with "Christ" of course. But even so, I hadn't made a meaningful connection with respect to the others. I was consciously unaware of the other correlations: James - Jew apostle, Tiberius - Greek , Kirk - Scottish for church. And while I know that pike is a kind of fish, I still didn't connect these things. This is very interesting. Thank you for pointing this out to me.

- PS

I know that I already rather flippantly replied to your quoted post, but since it keeps sticking in my mind I thought it was a good idea to respond in a more meaningful way.

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