Romney TORTURE Memo Leaked

Originally posted by campanionator
Obama took office with that 10% and has brought it down to 8.1% thus far.

When the economy fully rebounds in the next few years, Obama is gonna look real good
to historians.

Look around you - do you see more people working or less? I see less and less working and more on assistance... Great signs. The real number is about 15%.

Chicago Tribune

The August unemployment rate was reported Friday as 8.1 percent — though the real unemployment number that isn't regularly reported is almost two times higher than that, 14.7 percent.

The bleak numbers come in a U.S. Department of Labor report that was released Friday, an indictment of the president's inability to get Americans back to work.

The early news coverage Friday reported that the unemployment rate fell from 8.3 to 8.1 percent, with headlines suggesting it wasn't all that bad, maybe even a slight positive for the president. On the car radio as I drove to work, I heard the bad news tossed together with what the Republicans said, making it all seem like just more political bickering.

It wasn't all that bad. It was worse.

The reason the unemployment fell to 8.1 percent was that 368,000 Americans had given up looking for work, bringing the total number of those not in the labor force to 88.9 million people. So the 8.1 percent figure would have been higher if those 368,800 hadn't finally quit on finding a job.

Think on that. They gave up or it would have been worse.

Originally posted by Golf66

Originally posted by campanionator
Obama took office with that 10% and has brought it down to 8.1% thus far.

When the economy fully rebounds in the next few years, Obama is gonna look real good
to historians.

Look around you - do you see more people working or less? I see less and less working and more on assistance... Great signs. The real number is about 15%.

Chicago Tribune

The August unemployment rate was reported Friday as 8.1 percent — though the real unemployment number that isn't regularly reported is almost two times higher than that, 14.7 percent.

The bleak numbers come in a U.S. Department of Labor report that was released Friday, an indictment of the president's inability to get Americans back to work.

The early news coverage Friday reported that the unemployment rate fell from 8.3 to 8.1 percent, with headlines suggesting it wasn't all that bad, maybe even a slight positive for the president. On the car radio as I drove to work, I heard the bad news tossed together with what the Republicans said, making it all seem like just more political bickering.

It wasn't all that bad. It was worse.

The reason the unemployment fell to 8.1 percent was that 368,000 Americans had given up looking for work, bringing the total number of those not in the labor force to 88.9 million people. So the 8.1 percent figure would have been higher if those 368,800 hadn't finally quit on finding a job.

Think on that. They gave up or it would have been worse.

I wonder if you applied the same new set of standards to Bush's record???


My corner has three new businesses that are doing fine.

reply to post by sonnny1

Let me know when the OP creates a thread "criticizing" Obama, and his tactics.

Sonny - he's under no obligation to provide you with a thread that seems fair to you

He gave us this thread - the topic is about a leaked memo concerning advice given to a candidate for POTUS

His posting history is irrelevant

The memo is recommending that he continue with certain techniques - and it criticizes Obamas current policy:

The policy paper acknowledges that it is hard to know what would be different had Mr. Bush’s interrogation policy continued. But it argues that Mr. Obama’s approach has “hampered (or will hamper) the fight against terrorism” by forbidding techniques “that we should feel, as a nation, that we have a right to use against our enemies.”

www.nytimes.com...

Whether you're willing to acknowledge this or not - this concerns all of us. It is relevant - and no matter what Obama has or hasn't done - I for one would like to know more about it

We all get personal from time to time - I've done it myself. But, in this case - bringing in the OPs posting history is relevant - how? Just looks like a major deflection - and a different kind of attack from the usual heat of an argument personal attack

I get that it makes you angry - sucks for Romney if it's true

But if it's true it's neither hypocritical or unfair

Prove me wrong Sonny - contradict what he's saying without turning it into one more "well, Obama sucks too" thread

reply to post by Golf66

I read your entire post - not sure what you're saying exactly. Pro torture? Against torture?

Uncle Barry is not as innocent as he (or his media worshipers) would have your believe.

This is the sort of thing people say when they want to appear knowledgeable and wise

So, you're suggesting I'm naive?

:-)

Why?

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


Ive already stated Romney is wrong for this Country.


What more can be said?

Do we ALL hold hands together, and sing kumbaya, because we agree? Dance around the fire, in unison?




WHY is this an issue NOW, for those who obviously and willingly ignore the other Elephant in the room?

reply to post by sonnny1

Do we ALL hold hands together, and sing kumbaya, because we agree? Dance around the fire, in unison?

oh, WOULD you?!!

:-)

that would be really swell Sonny

WHY is this an issue NOW, for those who obviously and willingly ignore the other Elephant in the room?

Why aren't you answering any of my other, thread-relevant questions?

just sayin'

:-)

Originally posted by sonnny1
WHY is this an issue NOW, for those who obviously and willingly ignore the other Elephant in the room?

Because it's convenient.

Originally posted by longlostbrother
Waterboarding generated more bad data than good under Bush.

Which means it did NOT work.

On top of that ,most of the GOOD info came from good old fashioned interrogation techniques.

You say this like you were there....lol

All factual....

Well... a good friend of mine is a top polygrapher that was there working and he suggests it was very effective. I think I'll believe my friend over you...just saying

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by longlostbrother
Waterboarding generated more bad data than good under Bush.

Which means it did NOT work.

On top of that ,most of the GOOD info came from good old fashioned interrogation techniques.

You say this like you were there....lol

All factual....

Well... a good friend of mine is a top polygrapher that was there working and he suggests it was very effective. I think I'll believe my friend over you...just saying

Maybe you should do a bit of actual research. The ACTUAL people involved said it produced mostly false info.

Nah... .trust your buddy... he probably knows...

Originally posted by Xtrozero
You say this like you were there....lol

All factual....

Well... a good friend of mine is a top polygrapher that was there working and he suggests it was very effective. I think I'll believe my friend over you...just saying

Even polygraphs are not effective so what the hell does your friend know?
Who has your friend interrogated and why is the CIA arguing that he is wrong?

Originally posted by wascurious

Even polygraphs are not effective so what the hell does your friend know?

Polygraphs are one tool of many and all working together are very effective. Unless you are a sociopath or psychopath it is very hard not to have uncontrolled reactions. Though polygraphs are not used as a admission of guilt they tend to lead to confessions since everyone in the room knows the guy is lying.

Sleep deprivation, water boarding and polygraph interrogation sessions you WILL talk about everything...well unless you are James Bond.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
I read your entire post - not sure what you're saying exactly. Pro torture? Against torture?

If you consider muscle fatigue, sleep deprivation, hunger, discomfort and emotional stress to be "torture" you can count me in as for; however, if that is the case...

1) I question your manhood
2) I don't agree that they are "torture"

Being forced to go without sleep, be cold, hot, thirsty fatigued, and hungry or afraid for your life are hazards of a Soldiers profession...not “torture”.

Don't want to endure them don't fight - it's easy.

However, take up arms - deal with it. If one is old/tough enough to strap on a bomb for Allah he is old/tough enough to be made uncomfortable enough to comply with instructions given or ask questions posed.

Discomfort and fear are not “torture” - bottom line.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
This is the sort of thing people say when they want to appear knowledgeable and wise

So, you're suggesting I'm naive? :-)

Why?

If you wish to take it that way feel free - I choose to say uniformed or unknowledgeable on the subject.

I chose to speak pejoratively when it comes to the appeaser-in-chief primarily because it amuses me.

Also, I personally hold him responsible for getting a good many more men killed in Afghanistan than is necessary with his stupid ROE, apology tours and program of "Muslim engagement or outreach".

Ask the Ambassador to Libya how that's working out...

Anyway, his dicked up policy is getting good men killed - either we do the whole thing or bring them all home.

I can stand behind either one as he should chose.

What I can't get behind is a man who sits the fence while he sucks down champagne and brandy with JayZ and Beyonce so he can at the same time appear to be both aggressive and hawkish (drones strikes) with one group while using doublespeak to be something else (compassionate and understanding) to another. One does not prosecute war with one arm tied behind... Its weakness, pandering and vacillating...

Regarding interrogation - I have conducted many more than I care to admit.

Most are a sit down over tea and a smoke with some veiled threats, intimidating looks and important looking documents. Most men just roll right on over... However, some need more encouragement.

Personally, having been both subjected to and having employed most of the methods mentioned in this thread in both training and or real world operations I consider myself more informed than most on the topic.

If you wish to look on ATS you can use the search function to form your own impression of my credibility and experiences as far as interrogation and Special Operations are concerned.

reply to post by Golf66

Personally, having been both subjected to and having employed most of the methods mentioned in this thread in both training and or real world operations I consider myself more informed than most on the topic.

Since we know what you think torture isn't - I'd be interested to know what you think torture is

Also, going by your own standards - have you been tortured - or interrogated?

Originally posted by Golf66

Also, I personally hold him responsible for getting a good many more men killed in Afghanistan than is necessary with his stupid ROE, apology tours and program of "Muslim engagement or outreach".

Of the 2200 killed in Afghanistan 1400 plus were on Obama's watch, and this is after the fighting was all said and done and we are winding down. One needs to ask why.... I think we all know the answers...between giving an exit date, apology tours, and outlawing interrogation practices we know why.

Obama also doesn't have issues with indiscriminate drone killing since he doesn't get blood on his hands... I guess.

From 2004 to 2012 there were 342 drone attacks...Obama has 294 of them.... ya he is squeaky clean...lol

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
Since we know what you think torture isn't - I'd be interested to know what you think torture is

Torture is physically inflicting direct pain by breaking, cutting, stretching or "lashing" the flesh. Applying, force with a closed fist, breaking a bone, pulling off nails etc.

Mental torture is harder to define - everyone's different. There is a guy who killed himself and his family out of fear of Obama being reelected. Clearly he was broken.

There are people who will freak out in a small box or being made to be alone for long periods of time or the guy we found didn’t like spiders. Two camel spiders later he was all talk. The spiders were not even able to get to him but he didn't know that.

Was that torture? He might have some spidermares - who knows. Frankly, I don’t care we got what we needed. His sessions became discussions over tea… The threat of spiders would correct any shenanigans in the future. Is he scarred or mentally damaged long term. I don’t think so he was actually a fairly jovial guy after and I hear he was eventually released. Who knows now I'm not in privy to such things.

Torture as far as we were allowed to go was anything causing lasting physical or mental harm. That is a fine line and why the doctors are there assigned to the centers. Doctors are watching almost every session and certainly every enhanced session. They make those calls between when is a man broken and compliant and when is he tending towards being permanently mentally scarred. They get unwatched sessions with the Doctors and on more than one occasion the doctor has said no more for a person.

In the case of mental harm it is a fine line - for instance me. I do not like enclosed spaces. HALO from 25K feet fun - tube or tunnel, suck time. I wouldn't go to SCUBA school for a million dollars. (BS for a million dollars I'd do my dog.) I know I would not have passed SEAL tng though I did the Q course twice. To be honest being restrained scares me - it inspires the flight response. I have to be medicated to sit for an MRI (the old style).

In my case during SERE school it took them about 1 session to figure that out and thus I spent the entirely of my stay and in and out of various small boxes and trips to the Lake Liberty for some old fashioned water boarding.

I am fine today - for a while after the school I would wake-up at night afraid I was back in the box. You see a doc after for a while to make sure you are ok.

The feeling of utter panic (head pounding fear) is not pleasant but it helped me learn my personal limits and what I could take in that regard. During the debrief they ask you how long you were in a certain session or situation - it’s amazing how helplessness, fatigue, a little fear and hunger can skew one's sense of reality.

Often I was off by hours on my time impressions. Water boarding was a little different - same thing though I don't like the feeling of suffocation and it worked what I thought was minutes of water were no more than 10-20 seconds...t

They left me in to the point of breaking but not to the point of irrevocable mental impact.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
Also, going by your own standards - have you been tortured - or interrogated?

Other than in training no I have not been (there is one instance in a British school that I think I would count as card carrying torture involving electricity, a wood pallet and some water) – I determined long ago I would not be captured. However, the irony is that after SERE school and my declaration I was “detained” although by supposed allies. I was on a team that crossed into Egypt from Sudan by mistake. Very early in my young career. We were armed (heavily) and in a stolen vehicle very much by mistake and unannounced. Not a good thing. It was either a firefight and international incident or surrender. The team leader chose to avoid that and talk… It didn’t work out as well as he hoped.

I spent 96 hours in the “care” of the Egyptian border guards. It was scary sure. Did they actually do anything other than smack us around and keep us awake – no. However, they threatened plenty and one could see their handy work on the other men there. I am glad we were clandestine and not covert or we’d have been right there on the table with them. The fear of the unknown was the worst part. We got “saved” by or embassy – sticking to our cover story. This was all late 80s heyday of SF in N. Africa... before Bill Clinton shut down the program.

To this day I don’t know if that was “arranged” as some kind of test for the unit is was in or if it was happenstance. It seemed to be too tame to me for some reason then again perhaps our relationship with Egypt was better then.

I know I can never return to Egypt. I am not allowed in or to travel through Egypt. Supposedly over the country as well – though I’ve done that

reply to post by Golf66


You know what Golf66? I'm going to thank you for an honest reply and let it go

What a silly woman I am - thinking I could have an opinion about torture

I still do you know - have an opinion...

But I don't have the stomach for this kind of conversation tonight

I'm glad you weren't really tortured Golf66

My heart bleeds for those that have been

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
You know what Golf66? I'm going to thank you for an honest reply and let it go[

What a silly woman I am - thinking I could have an opinion about torture

I still do you know - have an opinion...

I hope I did not give you the impression I somehow felt your opinion was unwanted. I like discussion -the only point I wanted to make was that "torture" is not what we do. We manipulate...with emotion and discomfort.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
I'm glad you weren't really tortured Golf66

Me too...for sure. Always, save a bullet for yourself was our saying. Our folks don't usually live through sessions with terrorists and they don't stick to emotional manipulation or discomfort.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
My heart bleeds for those that have been

Regardless of what you think of me for participating in these acts I will say no one, including me likes to have one of these sessions. However, they are necessaary.

I did not enjoy those things and no anyone under my Command who I thought did (and there were two) were immediately dismissed and moved on. If you are not shaking and emotionally drained at the end of an enhanced session you have no soul.

They are exhausting and emotionally draining and really to be honest do not take a lot of skill (just endurance) to pull off. However, like kids are all different so too are Soldiers (or Jihadists)

I sub at school sometimes - the kids some will literally cry with a cross look or word while some will defy you in the face of corporal punishment without a care. My daughter will react to raised eyebrow while our nephew could care less about anything even a whipping but take his Xbox time and it’s the end of the world. It’s all about motivation and finding it.

I'd rather have a challenging question and answer session than an enhanced session. Again, I must reiterate they were hardly ever used and required almost national command authority to carry out.

The problem is our POTUS took away the ability to find any motivation - so we outsource. Just a fact. Torture doesn't work - I'll tell you I am Mickey Mouse to get you to stop pulling off my toenails...

We actually agree in principle not on the definition.

reply to post by Golf66


We're at cross purposes you and I

But I think you know that

We could - through a long conversation - come to agree about much in this world. We might even agree about the situations that lead to this kind of conversation - and to this conversation in particular

We don't have to agree - but we also don't have to argue

Like I said - I really don't have the stomach for this kind of thing - and I'm not going to change your mind anyway

I think this is one of those situations where two people recognize that they understand each other but just see things very differently

I want a world where torture isn't an option

I'm never going to live in that world - but it's what I fight for anyway

I imagine you making the same argument

oh the irony

reply to post by purplemer

Torture should not be part of a civilised society

Nice little Utopian dream there. But that is exactly why I posted the true story of the American GI who was brutally tortured by the Viet Cong(read Vietnamese communist) before he managed to escape. It's easy to say how horrible waterboarding is, but just compare it to some of the nasty techniques used by peoples of other countries? Or how about a beheading.
Still, I guess a drone attack is cleaner than having bamboo pieces shoved under your fingernails.

reply to post by jhn7537


www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I don't really like Obama, he is far too right wing and a banking shill. Do I like him better than Romney? Yes.