ThunderCloud,

I'm just asking Grady what he's trying to say.

If he's not saying he hates gays, then what is he saying? What is this "opinion" you say I'm trying to suppress?

[edit on 17-10-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo

I'm just asking Grady what he's trying to say.

I have said repeatedly stated that I have nothing to say on this topic at this time. My opinion is not yet formed and frankly this thread has done nothing to enhance my understanding. Most should know by now that I don't usually have problems expressing myself. If I do, I say so.

The traditionalist conservatives always have these paranoid delusions about a master plan to get rid of all that "was"and replace it with the "new"

Basically what we are seeing with the gay marriages and all that.. is no different than the fight black people had to gain equal rights, or women fighting for equal rights.. always you've seen that many traditionalist conservatives attaked groups that looked to have equal rights like everyone else.

Some of these traditionalist conservatives worry that "straight" marriages will be banned, either they are paranoid or just plain idiotic. The legalization of homosexual marriages does nothing to the other types of marriages. The same idea goes with the white pride movement in that they are afraid that the ethnic minority will gain the ability to compete with white people.

The true liberal is open minded, "mainstream" liberals are not real liberals! True liberals want all races, gender.. all of this to be equal with no type of forced affirmative action quota programs.

Personally I am for gay marriages.. because it's not affecting my life, and it won't affect anyone elses life. You will still be able to have straight marriages. Don't believe the paranoid conservative traditionalists.

I believe in equality, ignorance will probably never leave human nature.. but once people who know and experienced things will probably loose his ignorance of whatever it was he didn't understand, and therefore made false judgements because of his ignorance.

Open mindedness and respect is the key to a more well-rounded society. Why do we see all these ethnic conflicts in the world today claiming millions of lives? It's because of plain and sheer ignorance.

I'd love to see documentation or proof of this "master plan" created by the so called "liberals"

[edit on 17-10-2004 by RedOctober90]

[edit on 17-10-2004 by RedOctober90]

[edit on 17-10-2004 by RedOctober90]

Why wouldn't homosexuals have an agenda? The cultural oppression of such a lifestyle would make any person who is homosexual have an agenda to fix it, correct? Much like women had an agenda to vote and blacks had an agenda to be seen as equals to whites.

I guess the issue is that its considered wrong for homosexuals to want to have equal rights. I suppose women and blacks have faced the same issues.

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Grady:Using Durkiem we can see that amending the constitution to ban marriage of different sexual orientation can lead to a social disruption....

I do not favor a Constitutional ban on same-sex marriage, but I do not believe that Durkhiem's concept addresses the Constitution. It does however address the idea that institutions should not fluid to the extent that you suggested earlier. Certainly they should be flexible, but changes should be slow and well considered, that is to say evolutionary, rather than revolutionary, for the sake of stability of society.

...our organic complex in the soveriegnty of America would not only go against the social norm of the country.

Are you American?
You give your location as Canada

This is the norm, no ?

The condition of being free from restriction or control.

The right and power to act, believe, or express oneself in a manner of one's own choosing.

A right or immunity to engage in certain actions without control or interference

I suppose this could be a norm, but it would be better defined as an ideal with certain restrictions to facilitate a stable society. I gather you are an anarchist.


[edit on 04/10/17 by GradyPhilpott]

First gays as well a purple and green people are all Gods children. IF you must understand then I will try to explain to you that as Christians, we CANT hate gays.......fact.

We can hate the homosexual act as it is a sin. We are to try to save our brothers from what we consider to be demons by the very foundation of this nation.

Here is an example:

Luke 17:1 Jesus said to his disciples:"Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come.
Luke 17:2 It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.
Luke 17:3 So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
Luke 17:4 If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."
Luke 17:5 The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"
Luke 17:6 He replied, "If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, 'Be uprooted and planted in the sea,' and it will obey you.
Luke 17:7 "Suppose one of you had a servant plowing or looking after the sheep. Would he say to the servant when he comes in from the field, 'Come along now and sit down to eat'?
Luke 17:8 Would he not rather say, 'Prepare my supper, get yourself ready and wait on me while I eat and drink; after that you may eat and drink'?
Luke 17:9 Would he thank the servant because he did what he was told to do?
Luke 17:10 So you also, when you have done everything you were told to do, should say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done our duty.'



Maybe this will explain the attitude we have. It is not hate at all but actually love. The desire to save them from the demon that consumes them. Now they can freely choose to accept the demon willingly but it is our duty to point it out and NOT by force.




[edit on 17-10-2004 by edsinger]

[edit on 17-10-2004 by edsinger]

So you are saying that being gay is a choice edsinger?

When scientific evidence comes out (it's already been coming out but apparently some like yourself find ways to deny it) that gays are biological different than their homosexual counterparts -- is that enough evidence to completely debunk your Christian God? Or does your God create people a certain way, then condemn them to eternal hell for living their lives the only way they know how?

Oh for Pete's sake edsinger.....what is your problem!? Do look at woman other than your wife? Be honest here dear, do you!? Get drunk? Have a little porn collection somewhere or look at porn, bet ya do? Do you smoke? Your body is your temple ya know edsinge...your not supposed to smoke! Your not supposed to do a lot of stuff that you do any way all the time, you simply ignore the bible then., because it suits you to do so, but you will continue to harp on the homosexual due to your own inadequacies, insecurities and ignorance. It's not right, your not God and what anyone else's chooses to do in the privacy of their own home is NOT your business or anyone else's....surely you have problems of your to worry about other than what people you don't even know are doing, why do care!?



[edit on 10/18/2004 by LadyV]

The progressive push in the world will continue regardless if the conservative traditionalists start screaming and waving bibles. Perhaps they could buy an island somewhere and have a nice closed-minded and oppressive society.

We do not live in a theocracy, Mr. Bush seems to dislike the islamic theocracy but I bet he would support a Christian theocracy. I always see these people with bumper stickers "Catholics for Bush" Well of course, it is there right to have the bumper sticker.. but pushing ones religion ahead of another man's religion is wrong. It's good enough to keep religion out of progressive politics.

[edit on 17-10-2004 by RedOctober90]

Originally posted by RedOctober90
We do not live in a theocracy, Mr. Bush seems to dislike the islamic theocracy but I bet he would support a Christian theocracy. I always see these people with bumper stickers "Catholics for Bush" Well of course, it is there right to have the bumper sticker.. but pushing ones religion ahead of another man's religion is wrong. It's good enough to keep religion out of progressive politics.
[edit on 17-10-2004 by RedOctober90]

Yet Kerry can campaign in Catholic churches and you don't mention that...interesting.

LadyV:

There is a different between LIVING your life as a sin (Gay marriage), and commiting sins every once in a while.

[Edited on 17-10-2004 by Herman]

Your rights end at the tip of your nose...

People need to stop telling other people how to live and what's acceptable...

Society isn't perfect, why go around trying to tell people how and who to be?

People are a product of their environment thus the majority of the population being #ed in some area of their personal life...

Let it be...

Originally posted by W_HAMILTON
So you are saying that being gay is a choice edsinger?

When scientific evidence comes out (it's already been coming out but apparently some like yourself find ways to deny it) that gays are biological different than their homosexual counterparts -- is that enough evidence to completely debunk your Christian God? Or does your God create people a certain way, then condemn them to eternal hell for living their lives the only way they know how?

Yes I do think it is choice, I mean how can one have the demon removed and become a flourishing hetrosexual? There are many cases of this so how do you explain it?

And as for the Christian God comment, try as you may, but I will never debunk it even if aliens land on the White House lawn and say they created us. Someone created them. So what you said was an attack on my Christianity and that is fine with me, no sweat. God Still Loves YOU!

Originally posted by LadyVOh for Pete's sake edsinger.....what is your problem!? Do look at woman other than your wife? Be honest here dear, do you!? Get drunk? Have a little porn collection somewhere or look at porn, bet ya do? Do you smoke? Your body is your temple ya know edsinge...your not supposed to smoke! Your not supposed to do a lot of stuff that you do any way all the time, you simply ignore the bible then., because it suits you to do so, but you will continue to harp on the homosexual due to your own inadequacies, insecurities and ignorance.

Geez getting personal arent we? Yes I look cant help myself. I smoke. I drink Beer. I am a sinner, I confess, but I do not feel that a beer is a sin, when I look at another woman, I know I sin and I ask for the will not to look, yet I look. I do not feel cigarettes are any more sinful than bacon(there's the pork thing again).

The difference is when I sin, I recognize it as sin. I ask for foregiveness and I know that I am forgiven and I stuggle to sin no more for we ALL fall short.

When one is a homosexual, and they do not feel it is a sin, that is where the problem lies. No IF this person does not believe in God, then they will not recongize the sin, or will they?

As for harping, this is a thread and if you were not interested then you wouldnt be reading it and harping on me. Simple as that. Should I not express my opinion? Does it offend you?

Originally posted by LadyV Yet, while the Christian should love the homosexual by treating him lawfully, he must also love him by being biblically honest with him. A person¡¦s attitude toward homosexuality must not be shaped by our changing, pagan culture but by God¡¦s inspired, infallible revelation, the Bible. The Bible offers hope to the homosexual because it speaks the truth and proclaims forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ.

This was particularly right on! Thanks for posting it!

Originally posted by Herman


There is a different between LIVING your life as a sin (Gay marriage), and commiting sins every once in a while.

[Edited on 17-10-2004 by Herman]

Heaveb forbid is you have a beer with that cigarette after eating BLT's for lunch.....and if you looked at a boob , its all over.

With your above post....I rest my case...A typical Christian response, but, but, but.....I repent....blaa, blaa, blaa.....you have proven that you simply do not like homosexuals, for some reason...because s you say, you break most of all the other rules...but you "want" to stand tough on that "one"....you forget about all over rules in the bible, except for the ones you "want" I will now leave this thread because there is nothing else you can say to redeem yourself here....This is my biggest problem with Christianity, that they tend to pick and chose what they want o follow...I'll do this because I want to...but I will not obey God on that, cause it's too hard to do...but it's easy to hate isn't it edsinger!? I'm outa here.........not even worth the energy I'm using to type here!

Originally posted by LadyV
With your above post....I rest my case...A typical Christian response, but, but, but.....I repent....blaa, blaa, blaa.....you have proven that you simply do not like homosexuals, for some reason...because s you say, you break most of all the other rules...but you "want" to stand tough on that "one"....you forget about all over rules in the bible, except for the ones you "want" I will now leave this thread because there is nothing else you can say to redeem yourself here....This is my biggest problem with Christianity, that they tend to pick and chose what they want o follow...I'll do this because I want to...but I will not obey God on that, cause it's too hard to do...but it's easy to hate isn't it edsinger!? I'm outa here.........not even worth the energy I'm using to type here!

I am sorry you feel this way but you must show me in the Word where these "choices that I make are" I ahve already showed why it is perfectly fine and unsinful to eat Pork for a Christian. If I were Jewish, it would be another matter.

And for the last time. I DO NOT HATE HOMOSEXUALS, I just recogniize it as a sin and am bound to point it out.

You folks keep accusing me of hate, yet you still dont get it. You hate me because I will not say that homosexuality is not a sin. That is what you are saying.



as for the above post, have you no humor? you need to read the posts I had on the pork subject. I will find the link if I can.

[edit on 17-10-2004 by edsinger]

Honestly, it's all really a matter of perspective, when relating to gay rights.

There really are valid points on either side of the issue, but the venom that passes back and forth really lessens their sincerity.

If we would like to live in a country that has marriage between a man and a woman, then fine. That in itself is not a bigoted point of view, but it is labeled as such because of the venom some people who should these things defy Christianity to prove their point (which really defeats the purpose).

This "homosexual agenda" is much the same way. Demonized by the opposition because of the assualt on the senses.

It's really gotten rediculous (as well as in the abortion debate).

Originally posted by Herman
There is a different between LIVING your life as a sin (Gay marriage), and commiting sins every once in a while.

That quite possibly could have been the biggest cop-out I've ever seen on ATS. That's quite an accomplishment there, Herman!

Originally posted by edsinger
Yes I do think it is choice, I mean how can one have the demon removed and become a flourishing hetrosexual? There are many cases of this so how do you explain it?

Umm, because that's the easy way out. There was some special on HBO where some gay kid was given shock therapy and told by his priests that he was evil for being gay, and he believed it and essentially tried to live his life differently because he bought into what people like them, and people like you say. Later on when he dealt with those "demons" -- referring to the priests that did those things to him -- he realized he was gay, and nothing they could do was going to change that.

But of course, how do you explain it when THEIR FREAKING BRAINS ARE PHYSICALLY DIFFERENT. That's not a choice. Or did the "demons" go in and mess around in their brain to make them have gay feelings?

Originally posted by edsinger
God Still Loves YOU!

Yep, if there is a God, it's obvious he loves me just as much as he loves you since we're both here. If he wanted to condemn me to hell for being myself, he could have just saved me some years and given me my one way ticket to hell, eh? After all, he is GOD. He would know that I'm going to live my life the only way I know how, because if God created me, he created me that way. I'd prefer to be true to myself than be true to someone like you, who's just a simple human who, like me, or anyone else, has no clue how God works. Maybe one day you'll realize this.

Originally posted by edsinger
You folks keep accusing me of hate, yet you still dont get it. You hate me because I will not say that homosexuality is not a sin. That is what you are saying.

Homosexuality isn't a sin. For something to be a sin, it has to be against what God wants. You aren't God. You have no clue what he wants. Don't act as though you do.