What space did the universe expand into?

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posted on Sep, 30 2012 @ 07:22 AM
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Originally posted by ubeenhad

Our known laws of gravity "break down" at the point of singularity. Relativity or newtonian mechanics wont work if the density is infinite.


I've heard this before. Isn't gravity what kept all the matter together in the singularity? If not, what did? If gravity didn't do it, what stopped all the matter from flying off before the BB?
edit on 9/30/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)




posted on Sep, 30 2012 @ 11:20 AM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 

Nobody knows, and if they tell you otherwise, don't believe them, because the concept of "before the big bang" implies there was time before the big bang, which we would have no possible knowledge of, so we can't assume there was.

www.astro.ucla.edu...

What came before the Big Bang?

The standard Big Bang model is singular at the time of the Big Bang, t = 0. This means that one cannot even define time, since spacetime is singular. In some models like the chaotic or perpetual inflation favored by Linde, the Big Bang is just one of many inflating bubbles in a spacetime foam. But there is no possibility of getting information from outside our own one bubble. Thus I conclude that: "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."
Sometimes the answer "I don't know" or "nobody knows" is the best answer.
edit on 30-9-2012 by Arbitrageur because: clarification



posted on Sep, 30 2012 @ 11:26 AM
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Originally posted by phroziac
Simple. Space didnt expand. Its infinite. Whats in it expands. But if everything in space is a cubic mile.....nothing outside of that cubic mile matters. Theres nothing there...... And if theres nothing there whose to say the space is even there?



So you think in "INFINITE" space,,, this universe is the only "something" which exists....

how did this relatively massive,, complex,, and related "somethingness" get to be in the middle of infinite nothingness?



posted on Sep, 30 2012 @ 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by phroziac
Simple. Space didnt expand. Its infinite. Whats in it expands. But if everything in space is a cubic mile.....nothing outside of that cubic mile matters. Theres nothing there...... And if theres nothing there whose to say the space is even there?



So you think in "INFINITE" space,,, this universe is the only "something" which exists....

how did this relatively massive,, complex,, and related "somethingness" get to be in the middle of infinite nothingness?

It didnt. Its an infinite nothingness. You cant create nothing therefore it was already there



posted on Sep, 30 2012 @ 11:45 AM
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Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by ubeenhad

Our known laws of gravity "break down" at the point of singularity. Relativity or newtonian mechanics wont work if the density is infinite.


I've heard this before. Isn't gravity what kept all the matter together in the singularity? If not, what did? If gravity didn't do it, what stopped all the matter from flying off before the BB?
edit on 9/30/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)


Lol it all flew off otherwise we wouldnt be here



posted on Sep, 30 2012 @ 12:01 PM
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The truth of the matter is, we don't know. We may never know. There are countless theories, some having more merit than others, but we are still limited to theories.

Some theories involve a creator of some type, all of the religions fall in this category although the creators vary greatly.

Some theories involve no creator. For example, evolutionists, Big Bang, quantum theories, all that are primarily on the scientific level without looking at anything beyond the realm of the study of what we can percieve. Afterall, science is the study of what we can percieve, not a thing or a theology, a study.

Some theories intertwine both in some way, form or fashion.

This summarizes all the theories that exist and is why there is so much contention between creationism and evolution.

My own theory involves an intertwining to some extent as I do believe in a spiritual presence. My own involves the Christian diety, someone else's may involve a different diety. We don't want to rule out the possibility because you can't prove a negative (i.e. you can't prove that God doesn't exist).

Since we don't know the answer, in my mind, the most likely theory in my understanding would concern space being all that is or ever was and our universe expanding into that space. We just honestly don't know.

I'm ok with not knowing because it gives us the ability and the opportunity to dream, to theorize, to contemplate and that's something I enjoy very much and hope to continue doing.



posted on Sep, 30 2012 @ 12:08 PM
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I guess it could be boken down to a single question:

Are we a drop in the ocean or are we the ocean?

(not the ocean as we know it in the sense of water, but in the sense of everything that is "out there", or in existance)



posted on Sep, 30 2012 @ 12:31 PM
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To anyone saying space is nothing:

If space is nothing why does it take time for any particle with an EM signature to travel through it.

Once we acknowledge that space is indeed "something" ( a superfluid vaccum) and is in fact the medium with which Gravity manifests itself ( via gradients of Quantum density) it might make more sense.

Einstein had the right idea when he called it space time however just because it takes "time" doesnt mean it is time.
edit on 30-9-2012 by Jukiodone because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 30 2012 @ 01:15 PM
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Originally posted by Jukiodone
To anyone saying space is nothing:

If space is nothing why does it take time for any particle with an EM signature to travel through it.

Once we acknowledge that space is indeed "something" ( a superfluid vaccum) and is in fact the medium with which Gravity manifests itself ( via gradients of Quantum density) it might make more sense.

Einstein had the right idea when he called it space time however just because it takes "time" doesnt mean it is time.
edit on 30-9-2012 by Jukiodone because: (no reason given)


There's a difference in "known space" and "unknown space". "Known Space" is what is contained in the known universe. "Unknown Space" would be what the thread is alluding to as what is "beyond" the known universe and what it is expanding into.

Or at least that's what my theory is on the matter... or lack of matter



ETA: ...or, it could be the primordial soup that exists and has always existed that our present understanding of matter has entered into and swirls around in... I don't really know, nor does anyone else
edit on 30-9-2012 by PurpleChiten because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 30 2012 @ 01:26 PM
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reply to post by Jukiodone
 


People look at space differently. Calling it nothing is true in many aspects depending on how you look at it.

I call the first space a absolute infinite empty volume of space. To some people this is hard to grasp. Because they cant comprehend a absolute empty space. Not even if i call that space for "A" where A = A

This absolutely infinite empty volume of space is only made up of a infinite volume of just "A".

Only when a element appears inside this volume of space will you have gravity. Because the element is different than the infinite "A". "A" becomes a vacuum compared to the element. The element can never be negative or more neutral than infinite "A"



posted on Sep, 30 2012 @ 02:40 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 

The reason why we know they are not popping in and out of OUR Universal Reality is that if they were...we could be able to detect it. Quantum particles...and here is a list of some...
PHOTONS, ELECTRONS, QUARKS, BOSONS, GLUONS, QUARKS, MESONS, LEPTONS...ETC...

Now let's look at a few different Quantum Particle/Wave Forms. Just the FACT that I have to call them a PARTICLE/WAVE FORM...tells you that they act as both a PARTICLE and a WAVE...thus they have FREQUENCY. In Photons...Light Frequency determined by length of the WAVE determines COLOR of which some we can see and some we cannot see. But using the DOUBLE SLIT LIGHT WAVE FORM DISPERSION EXPERIMENT....LINK www.google.com...

This gives you some basic pictures to what is going on now here is the explanation....LINK...abyss.uoregon.edu...

This will show you that a single PHOTON IS INTERFERING WITH ITSELF! Thus as this experiment can be done with ELECTRONS and there are experiments slightly different but have the same basic results for all Quantum Particles...it shows us that these Particle/Wave Forms have an inter connectivity between other versions of themselves in other ALTERNATE UNIVERSAL REALITIES THAT ARE DIVERGENT FROM EACH OTHER YET WITHIN THE SAME GROUP WITHIN OUR MULTIVERSE. Continued....Split Infinity



posted on Sep, 30 2012 @ 03:26 PM
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reply to post by SplitInfinity
 
Continued....

Imagine our MULTIVERSE as an INFINITE FOREST THAT CONTAINS AN AN INFINITE NUMBER OF TREES. Now each one of the Trees is a GROUP OF UNIVERSAL REALITIES and our Universe is ONE BRANCH OF AN INFINITE NUMBER OF BRANCHES FROM A SINGLE TREE.

Each TREE represents an INFINITE GROUP UNIVERSAL REALITIES and each branch of an INFINITE NUMBER OF BRANCHES upon each TREE. So each TREE is comprised of INFINITE UNIVERSAL REALITIES...and each of these UNIVERSES have the same Physical Laws and Space/Time Geometry...or have the same some form of Natural Laws specific to that TREE or Group that are some Alien in their Construction that we could neither understand or comprehend what that Group of Universal Realities Natural Laws consist of.

Our Universe is FINITE...and it is just ONE UNIVERSAL REALITY OR BRANCH ON OUR GROUP OR TREE that consists of INFINITE VERSIONS OF OUR UNIVERSE...so each Branch on our TREE is a UNIVERSE that is a slightly different version of our Universe thus there are INFINITE VERSIONS OF YOU AND ME and INFINITE PROTONS AND NEUTRONS AND ELECTRONS AND PHOTONS and since the PROTONS AND NEUTRONS in the Nucleus' of every ATOM in both our bodies as well as every object in our Universe are completely without exception comprised of QUANTUM PARTICLE/ WAVE FORMS...there must be an inter-connectivity between all UNIVERSAL REALITIES within our GROUP or TREE. This Inter-Connectivity is expressed by the QUANTUM PARTICLES that make up all ATOMIC NUCLEUS' EXCHANGING EXISTENCE BETWEEN PROTONS AND NEUTRONS in all things that exist in INFINITE VERSIONS in all DIVERGENT UNIVERSAL REALITIES within our Universal Group or TREE...and as the analogy used...EACH TREE IS A GROUP OF INFINITE UNIVERSAL REALITIES REPRESENTED BY EACH BRANCH INFINITE IN NUMBER.

Our UNIVERSE IS ONE BRANCH OF AN INFINITE NUMBER OF BRANCHES ON ONE TREE.

EACH TREE IS A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT GROUP OF INFINITE DIVERGENT UNIVERSAL REALITIES REPRESENTED AS ONE BRANCH BEING ONE UNIVERSE OF INFINITE BRANCHES REPRESENTING INFINITE UNIVERSES OF THAT TREE OR GROUP...which has nothing in relation to our TREE or BRANCHES REPRESENTING VERSIONS OF OUR UNIVERSE.

To SUM IT UP...the MULTIVERSE ANALOGY...The MULTIVERSE is like AN INFINITE FOREST. Within the FOREST is an INFINITE NUMBER OF TREES. Each TREE has an INFINITE NUMBER OF BRANCHES. Each of these INFINITE NUMBER OF BRANCHES represents A UNIVERSE that is a slightly different variation of each of the other BRANCHES...or ALTERNATE UNIVERSAL REALITIES. Each TREE REPRESENTS AN INFINITE GROUP OF UNIVERSAL REALITIES that are completely ALIEN IN THEIR PHYSICAL NATURAL LAWS COMPARED TO OUR OWN TREES PHYSICAL NATURAL LAWS. OUR TREE REPRESENTS INFINITE VERSIONS OF OUR UNIVERSAL REALITY AND ALL BRANCHES OR UNIVERSES IN OUR GROUP OR TREE HAVE THE SAME PHYSICAL NATURAL LAWS. IF you have questions just ask. Split Infinity



posted on Sep, 30 2012 @ 03:26 PM
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Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Thus I conclude that: "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."
Sometimes the answer "I don't know" or "nobody knows" is the best answer.


And yet, physicists will tell us that time started at the BB, and I just don't agree with them. How can their math even prove such a thing?



posted on Sep, 30 2012 @ 03:47 PM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity


This will show you that a single PHOTON IS INTERFERING WITH ITSELF! Thus as this experiment can be done with ELECTRONS and there are experiments slightly different but have the same basic results for all Quantum Particles...it shows us that these Particle/Wave Forms have an inter connectivity between other versions of themselves in other ALTERNATE UNIVERSAL REALITIES THAT ARE DIVERGENT FROM EACH OTHER YET WITHIN THE SAME GROUP WITHIN OUR MULTIVERSE. Continued....Split Infinity


Before I go to your next response I need to point out that everything you've explained, and the links you provided, all show particles and waves acting within our universe. I made bold where you suddenly leapt without explanation to alternate universes. Why is it assumed that one photon is connected to a sister photon somewhere else in a multiverse? Why is it NOT assumed that the sister particles are right next to the brother particle, or a foot away, or ten billion light years away in THIS universe?

Let me clarify my thinking on this. When I hear of quantum particles popping out of our dimension, I'm assuming it means that particles disappear from sight (or from detection of any kind). Seeing as light travels so fast, how does anyone know that these particles aren't just zooming away into other parts of our universe, and they only appear to pop out?
edit on 9/30/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 30 2012 @ 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Thus I conclude that: "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."
Sometimes the answer "I don't know" or "nobody knows" is the best answer.


And yet, physicists will tell us that time started at the BB, and I just don't agree with them. How can their math even prove such a thing?


We honestly and whole heatedly have no idea what time even is, if it does exist. My personal opinion is that time is just planck time(the time it takes light to travel 1 planck length which is 10^-35 meters) pixels. So each moment is just the quanta of time, and time is just the natural progression of things like atomic decay. Time is quantum actions, the very smallest possible actions, and the progression of theses quantum "steps" is what gives time its fluid appearance. Its like a really FAST frame per second movie.
edit on 30-9-2012 by ubeenhad because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 30 2012 @ 04:12 PM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity

To SUM IT UP...the MULTIVERSE ANALOGY...The MULTIVERSE is like AN INFINITE FOREST. Within the FOREST is an INFINITE NUMBER OF TREES. Each TREE has an INFINITE NUMBER OF BRANCHES. Each of these INFINITE NUMBER OF BRANCHES represents A UNIVERSE that is a slightly different variation of each of the other BRANCHES...or ALTERNATE UNIVERSAL REALITIES. Each TREE REPRESENTS AN INFINITE GROUP OF UNIVERSAL REALITIES that are completely ALIEN IN THEIR PHYSICAL NATURAL LAWS COMPARED TO OUR OWN TREES PHYSICAL NATURAL LAWS. OUR TREE REPRESENTS INFINITE VERSIONS OF OUR UNIVERSAL REALITY AND ALL BRANCHES OR UNIVERSES IN OUR GROUP OR TREE HAVE THE SAME PHYSICAL NATURAL LAWS. IF you have questions just ask. Split Infinity



Good stuff! Great writing! But, what you did was TELL me about multiverses, meaning that I am supposed to just accept that it's true without proof. I'm not saying that it ISN'T true. I'm just saying that I don't see any proof.

Also, from what I've picked up over time on this topic is that our universe is so fine tuned that the number representing the possibility of our universe being the way it is, is so staggeringly huge as to make it sound almost impossible for a similar universe to exist. And yet, you claim there are billions of similar universes on just one tree, or branch of a tree, in a whole forest of trees.

And, to claim that our universe is finite is to imply that there is a wall, or shell, or bubble-edge that we could not fly through. Again, how would I know? I don't have the math, so all I can ask is: Does that explanation feel right to you.

Thanks for your input, S.I. I could read your stuff all day!



posted on Sep, 30 2012 @ 04:13 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Arbitrageur


Thus I conclude that: "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."
Sometimes the answer "I don't know" or "nobody knows" is the best answer.
And yet, physicists will tell us that time started at the BB, and I just don't agree with them. How can their math even prove such a thing?
You left out the part of my quote which addressed that. I don't assume they have proven any such thing.

You also omitted the part of that external quote about other "bubbles" some of which may have preceded our bubble and which may have had time.
edit on 30-9-2012 by Arbitrageur because: clarification



posted on Sep, 30 2012 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by ubeenhad

We honestly and whole heatedly have no idea what time even is, if it does exist. My personal opinion is that time is just planck time(the time it takes light to travel 1 planck length which is 10^-35 meters) pixels. So each moment is just the quanta of time, and time is just the natural progression of things like atomic decay. Time is quantum actions, the very smallest possible actions, and the progression of theses quantum "steps" is what gives time its fluid appearance. Its like a really FAST frame per second movie.
edit on 30-9-2012 by ubeenhad because: (no reason given)


Personally, I think time is simply an easier way to translate the accumulation of, and the dispersion of energy in a way that we can understand.

If your family knew just how far your car could travel on one gallon of gas (say, 20 miles), and your child asks how long it will take to get to grandma's house, you could answer "We need to use three gallons of fuel to get there." The child would know how long the trip would last.

If you told the child that it would take 200 gallons to get to grandma's house, then she would know she's in for a long ride.



posted on Sep, 30 2012 @ 04:39 PM
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Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Arbitrageur


Thus I conclude that: "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."
Sometimes the answer "I don't know" or "nobody knows" is the best answer.
And yet, physicists will tell us that time started at the BB, and I just don't agree with them. How can their math even prove such a thing?
You left out the part of my quote which addressed that. I don't assume they have proven any such thing.

You also omitted the part of that external quote about other "bubbles" some of which may have preceded our bubble and which may have had time.
edit on 30-9-2012 by Arbitrageur because: clarification


Only recently have I learned that we're supposed to cut back on quotes here. I guess it's a space saver.



posted on Sep, 30 2012 @ 05:08 PM
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one thing is for sure, nobody on earth will ever know (certainly not while in this mortal coil), and whilst many smart and well educated people (eg scientists) may put forward theories, they are just guesses and such theories over something so "UNKNOWABLE" *sic* is no more or less valid than anyone elses.


It is all Imagination as opposed to knowledge





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