Those days be shortened for the sake of the ELECT

reply to post by Augustine62

History crushes fallacy.

You are quoting Catholic propaganda.

reply to post by Augustine62



St. Peter helped found more than one see. It doesn't matter which came first or last. Rome left the other four, the other four didn't leave Rome. That See fell into error, refused to acknowledge it, and then tried to force the rest to accept its error. Rome let the Franks influence it by putting in the Filioque. It was only after Rome schismed from the rest of the Church that they began touting the idea of Papal Infallibility. Indeed, if that had been the case from the beginning, the first seven Ecumenical Councils, which had universal consent, wouldn't have been needed at all! The Pope would only have needed to sit 'ex cathedra' and everyone else would have accepted it (if that idea had really existed that is). Being first among equals isn't the same as being above reproach.

The Orthodox would love for Rome to be reunited with the rest of the Church. After all, when RCC clergy are accepted into the Orthodox Church, they are only vested, not ordained anew. Any Catholics who become Orthodox are received only through Confession. We have more in common than not. However, Rome would have to give up some of its erroneous doctrines that have come into play in the last 1000 years. Purgatory, Immaculate Conception, Assumption of Mary (we only believe in the dormition), the role of indulgences (which they oddly re-emphasized after talks with the Lutherans recently), filioque (which they've now claimed is optional- it's either correct or it isn't), and numerous liturgical abuses (and there are MANY).

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Augustine62

 

History crushes fallacy.

You are quoting Catholic propaganda.

No, I'm quoting passages merely translated by a Catholic (Rev. James Barmby: www.ccel.org...) which were originally written by Gregory-- from a Calvinist website, ironically enough.

Originally posted by LeSigh
reply to post by Augustine62

 

St. Peter helped found more than one see. It doesn't matter which came first or last. Rome left the other four, the other four didn't leave Rome. That See fell into error, refused to acknowledge it, and then tried to force the rest to accept its error. Rome let the Franks influence it by putting in the Filioque. It was only after Rome schismed from the rest of the Church that they began touting the idea of Papal Infallibility. Indeed, if that had been the case from the beginning, the first seven Ecumenical Councils, which had universal consent, wouldn't have been needed at all! The Pope would only have needed to sit 'ex cathedra' and everyone else would have accepted it (if that idea had really existed that is). Being first among equals isn't the same as being above reproach.

The Orthodox would love for Rome to be reunited with the rest of the Church. After all, when RCC clergy are accepted into the Orthodox Church, they are only vested, not ordained anew. Any Catholics who become Orthodox are received only through Confession. We have more in common than not. However, Rome would have to give up some of its erroneous doctrines that have come into play in the last 1000 years. Purgatory, Immaculate Conception, Assumption of Mary (we only believe in the dormition), the role of indulgences (which they oddly re-emphasized after talks with the Lutherans recently), filioque (which they've now claimed is optional- it's either correct or it isn't), and numerous liturgical abuses (and there are MANY).

Two problems with this:
1) Papal infallibility is being misrepresented here, as the Pope cannot go against the Ordinary Magisterium of the Church. In other words, Councils, if legitimate, have as much power to proclaim doctrine as revealed truth as much as the Pope. The Pope, in exercising Papal Infallibility, would and must submit to the Conciliar rulings. The buck stops at St. Peter's Successor, but he is not a despot declaring everything.
2) The Church Fathers largely agree with the Roman Catholic position and not the Orthodox position regarding Peter's See in Rome, including St. Ignatius of Antioch amongst others:

Tradition / Church Fathers
I. Peter Built the Church in Rome

"Through envy and jealousy, the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the Church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him." Clement of Rome, The First Epistle of Clement, 5 (c. A.D. 96).

"I do not, as Peter and Paul, issue commandments unto you." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans, 4 (c. A.D. 110).

'You have thus by such an admonition bound together the plantings of Peter and Paul at Rome and Corinth." Dionysius of Corinth, Epistle to Pope Soter, fragment in Eusebius' Church History, II:25 (c. A.D. 178).

"Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:1:1 (c. A.D. 180).

"As Peter had preached the Word publicly at Rome, and declared the Gospel by the Spirit, many who were present requested that Mark, who had followed him for a long time and remembered his sayings, should write them out." Clement of Alexandria, fragment in Eusebius Church History, VI:14,6 (A.D. 190)

Source: www.scripturecatholic.com...


Purgatory is found, again, in the Pre-Schism era of Tradition: www.scripturecatholic.com...-I

Similarly, Our Lady's Immaculate Conception is found in Tradition: www.scripturecatholic.com...-II

Also, her Assumption (see link for more):

"...Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, ... her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty ... the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven." John of Damascene, PG (96:1) (A.D. 747-751)."

Source: www.scripturecatholic.com...-IV

The Elect are the 144 000 men and women Appointed from the Israelite Tribe remnant to be Raptured during the period of global Tribulation. They will be Granted new garments, Changed and scattered throughout the world to heal and redeem the many lost and rebellious souls of the world remaining on earth, through preaching and demonstrating the Gospel of Christ.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."
John 14:12

Such elect, Inspired and Powered directly by the Holy Spirit will go forth to witness and demonstrate His Power for the Salvation of souls unto the Kingdom. They too will not all be immune to persecution and have to carry their cross of burden in the world, just as Yahushuwah did.

"Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God."
Ephesians 2:8

Originally posted by PrimeLight
The Elect are the 144 000 men and women Appointed from the Israelite Tribe remnant to be Raptured during the period of global Tribulation. They will be Granted new garments, Changed and scattered throughout the world to heal and redeem the many lost and rebellious souls of the world remaining on earth, through preaching and demonstrating the Gospel of Christ.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."
John 14:12

Such elect, Inspired and Powered directly by the Holy Spirit will go forth to witness and demonstrate His Power for the Salvation of souls unto the Kingdom. They too will not all be immune to persecution and have to carry their cross of burden in the world, just as Yahushuwah did.

"Because it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith; not by anything of your own, but by a gift from God."
Ephesians 2:8

edit on 20-10-2012 by PrimeLight because: (no reason given)

You posited a position which cannot be gleaned from the verses you quoted, nor the Bible in general. Multiple positions in fact. Rapture, 144k being raptured but then sent back etc. What gives?

reply to post by Augustine62

I prayed during and after posting to edit and also add what our Father wanted me to reveal as He Led me to verse in context. The first was to indicate that the Elect will be doing the Will on earth as instruments in Christ, the second proclaiming that there will be Salvation offered for those who are Mercifully Granted Divinely Inspired witness via such Elect at Tribulation in order that they adhere with the Gospel as Truth (in the midst of the beast system in full force at this time).

The Elect are already ordained as servants and the chosen will be sent back scattered all over the nations for the sake of those misaligned lost left behind in the midst of tribulation. It is our Father's Will that all His children accept His Gift of Salvation through Christ that the Gospel offers and many Christ-like miracles will be displayed by such Elect to lead the flock to both His Will and Testament.

Feel free to pray about this to know if this is a Truth as I desire nor expect none here to take me on my word alone.

Additional note: During the time of my first post, He also Led me to the verse below in praying for Guidance just prior to opening a 'random' page of the Bible that Served to re-affirm in Revealing what I know of the Rapture being a Legitimate Truth.

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Thessalonians 4:17

edit on 21-10-2012 by PrimeLight because: (no reason given)

Instead, the print in the bible is pretty clear.... the 144,000 are described as a) Virgins. b) NOT having spoken lies c) Blameless

There was only one here in the flesh who was blameless and without blemish.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor 5:19-21 Where was Christ made to be sin for us? On the Cross. He took upon himself the sins of the world,5 and paid the penalty or wages (death6) demanded in Romans 6:147. Therefore, this has enabled God to henceforth offer salvation (from the penalty of our sinful condition) to everyone as a free gift. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. Romans 5:15 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8 (KJV)

It will be very interesting. The "elect" if you will are those who will be The Covenant Keepers of YHWH. Simple as that. What is Covenant.... for Seekers to know and you to find out :]

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

In Revelation "those days" are not shortened for the church, because the church will not be here at that time, but it is for the sake of the Elect that those days be shortened so that God can keep his covenant with Abraham and with Jacob.

Now that it has been revealed that the Elect will be the Instruments of witnessing for redemption of souls to Him during Tribulation, I hope it makes further sense why our Father will shorten the length of those days of Tribulation for the sake of His faithful doing His Work on earth at the time for His Glory of Salvation.

Originally posted by YAHUWAH SAVES
It will be very interesting. The "elect" if you will are those who will be The Covenant Keepers of YHWH. Simple as that. What is Covenant.... for Seekers to know and you to find out :]

Indeed, those who keep the second covenant, the first covenant was perfect, but a flawed humanity cannot keep it. Thats why there were sacrifices, and thats why Jesus was crucified.

Originally posted by PrimeLight
reply to post by Augustine62

 

I prayed during and after posting to edit and also add what our Father wanted me to reveal as He Led me to verse in context. The first was to indicate that the Elect will be doing the Will on earth as instruments in Christ, the second proclaiming that there will be Salvation offered for those who are Mercifully Granted Divinely Inspired witness via such Elect at Tribulation in order that they adhere with the Gospel as Truth (in the midst of the beast system in full force at this time).

So what if someone else prays *really hard* and gets a totally different answer? That verse has nothing to do with some raptured-and-returned Elect, chosen, and doing miracles during the Tribulation. It has to do with Christians performing miracles upon the descent of the Holy Ghost after Pentecost-- for the conversion of the world (nations). There is not a single shred of apocalyptic-chosen-elect-raptured anything in context of that verse; you have posited nothing but private and incorrect personal revelation.

The Elect are already ordained as servants and the chosen will be sent back scattered all over the nations for the sake of those misaligned lost left behind in the midst of tribulation. It is our Father's Will that all His children accept His Gift of Salvation through Christ that the Gospel offers and many Christ-like miracles will be displayed by such Elect to lead the flock to both His Will and Testament.

Feel free to pray about this to know if this is a Truth as I desire nor expect none here to take me on my word alone.

Additional note: During the time of my first post, He also Led me to the verse below in praying for Guidance just prior to opening a 'random' page of the Bible that Served to re-affirm in Revealing what I know of the Rapture being a Legitimate Truth.


"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Thessalonians 4:17

edit on 21-10-2012 by PrimeLight because: (no reason given)

More personal revelation which is incorrect. The dead in Christ rise first and then those left. This commonly posited rapture meme has Jesus returning two times-- not found in Scripture. This is talking about the 2nd and ONLY return of Christ. The full verse in *context*:

14 For this we say unto you in the word of the Lord, *that we who are alive, who remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them, who have slept.

15 For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead, who are in Christ, shall rise first.

16 Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds, to meet Christ, in the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord.

St. Paul was addressing the concerns of the early Christians who erroneously though Christ would return in their lifetimes and were worried that the dead would miss out on Jesus' return-- in fact, they rise first! Jesus returns ONCE, and ONLY once. Further, if the "raptured" shall be always with the Lord: how shall the raptured, even a portion, return to be persecuted in the end days? There's a massive disconnect with what is posited, from the verses it's gleaned from, and how it contradicts the context.

reply to post by Augustine62

That verse has nothing to do with some raptured-and-returned Elect, chosen, and doing miracles during the Tribulation.

Our Father Led my eyes to those very specific lines of verse outlined (and not to the whole chapters) from consecutive pages quickly turned, based on a quick simple prayer of what to include for others (in line with the wider context theme of the posting subject)---being the Elect and information pertaining to their return to earth as servants of which I was already made aware of via previous Leadings well before the time of posting.

What was included in verse was not for breaking down their meanings in relation to their specific Bible chapter contents, so you did not need to explain such in full verse context, as I already tried to explain why I was shown those particular verse lines that emphasised the relevance in regards to the circumstances of the Elect--being their coming to aid and serve Salvation efforts through healing miracles and preaching AFTER being raised to meet our Lord in the air---and they Will in deed be spreading the True Gospel (speaking cleanly through the Holy Spirit CHANGED whilst demonstrating Christ-like qualities TRANSFORMED with clean garments that will be washed in the blood of the Lamb---quite unlike the many whom preach a distorted Gospel through historically manipulated doctrinal errors passed down generationally.

The 'overall picture' our Father was Revealing to me was a further affirmation to not hesitate in forwarding such knowledge---and He does that with me regularly to solidify my faith in preaching the elements of coming end times events in which He has poured out in me with an abundance via a vast variety of means for reasons not always understood (for I am a simple man with blemishes, though deeply faithful and trustingly open to His Guidance without the corrupting influences of the organised church branches). He has kept me out of her thus far, yet preserving me as an ever deepening faithful seeker still.

if the "raptured" shall be always with the Lord: how shall the raptured, even a portion, return to be persecuted in the end days? There's a massive disconnect with what is posited,

This scripture is not meant to be taken literally. The raptured, it signifies will always be with the Lord in their Changing, via their faithful contention as willing servant adherents Raised as souls destined as Redeemed. Know that the Bible and it's Revelation does not always contain the specific details of end times events with largely metaphorical as well as literal mysteries to be understood and Revealed only via the Guidance of the Holy Spirit for seekers to be Rewarded with BY DESIGN ---for those with the eyes Granted to see.

For example the Bible highlights that there will be 'end times' signs and wonders in the sky, though there is no mention therein that humanity will be viewing what appears as two suns in the sky as a specific end times marker, although such will in destiny be viewed, even when the majority including Bible scholars are still in ignorance of such knowledge. There are many that are also still in error that the 'mark of the beast' is metaphorical and not a literal implantation, though I can say in an absolution there will be a literal introduction and acceptance of a soul matrix transforming technology of which many cannot yet fathom, through the advanced workings of the fallen principalities Granted a form of authority here (or should I say our 'alien space brothers' that the Catholic church hierachy are busy promoting through their media conditioning wink wink). Their unholy presence will be greater felt and embraced by the many who will cleave to the world to be overcome, with their 'ripening' process still in effect and with more to come in gross manipulation and deception. The Elect's role will be to aid the faith in 'supernatural' Power displays showing our Father's Glory to usher humanity away from aligning and accepting the antichrist 'mark' at the price of the flesh by the many executed for refusal.

In Truth, our Loving, Compassionate Father and our King are not simply going to raise one group of individuals up, 'sparing' them completely whilst apathetically leaving the larger group of humanity behind with no Graceful recourse to mercilessly taste wrath. The Divine Will Allow Provision of many holy servants on the spiritual battlefield to provide a means of further Redemption of 'lost' souls through their baptism of Fire, for their grave errors of rebellion in faithlessness and disobedience (whom He has repeatedly Called to repentance prior).

And even through such Mercies, many will still be angry, rejecting and cursing Him still for what they will endure by their own hand of will.

reply to post by Augustine62


"The elect are most definitely Christians who subscribe to the teachings and doctrines of the Church Jesus established."

And what church is that?

I have a question for you, Lone Wolf.

Does your world view, based on your interpretation of "the elect", involve the prophecy that in 1948 "the Jews were regathered" in Israel?

Originally posted by On the Edge
I have a question for you, Lone Wolf.

Does your world view, based on your interpretation of "the elect", involve the prophecy that in 1948 "the Jews were regathered" in Israel?

Yes partly. Israel became a nation again after 2000 years, but Ephraim still has not returned. Right now only a fraction of Judah and Benjamin are there right now. Ephraim was assimilated, they will most likely return as christians, having forgotten who they were. The parable of the culvtivated olive tree and the wild olive branches from the wild olive tree ties into this. IN John 10 Jesus says he has another flock he has to bring and there will be one shepherd and one flock.

God also has 2 staves, he broke one of them, which symbolized the split between Ephraim and Judah, the other staff remained whole.

Thanks for answering my question.
That's all I wanted to know.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

God also has 2 staves, he broke one of them, which symbolized the split between Ephraim and Judah, the other staff remained whole.

Maybe if you have another Bible. The regular Bible most people own has no story in it like that.
Apparently you are reading a web site that just mixes up and recreates their own versions of prophecy.
There are two staves which were shepherd staffs that were broken in Zechariah 11, and then there is a story in Ezekiel 37 where two sticks were put together. But there isn't a story that matches up with what you are saying.

Israel became a nation again after 2000 years . . .

There is a Anglo/American Empire colony illegally occupying Palestine that calls itself Israel, but I don't see how that constitutes a nation that God recognizes as His own. Just claiming that you are does not make it so. Another thing to consider is that the so-called Jewish state was founded by secular and atheist and communist Jews mostly.

The parable of the culvtivated olive tree and the wild olive branches from the wild olive tree ties into this.

You may be thinking of a non-canonical story. The Biblical one is in Luke 13,
Then Jesus told this parable: “A man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came looking for fruit on it and found none. So he said to the worker who tended the vineyard, ‘For three years now, I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree, and each time I inspect it I find none. Cut it down! Why should it continue to deplete the soil?’ But the worker answered him, ‘Sir, leave it alone this year too, until I dig around it and put fertilizer on it. Then if it bears fruit next year, very well, but if not, you can cut it down.’”

That is about a fig tree and was fulfilled when Jerusalem fell to the Romans in 70 AD.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I've read that before the Scofield Bible came out, with it's leading notations and interpretations on the side, no one gave any thought to a restored Israel as a nation that we see today.

Also, the prevailing thought, thanks to Christ and the New Testament, was that those in Christ are "the chosen ones"..

There is a definite conspiracy in there, for those who like to search out Conspiracies in Religion!

Scofield and the "Secret Six" anyone?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

I looked up the beliefs of Missionary Baptists in order to ascertain where these ideas about Jews and the elect might be coming from.

I went to the missionarybaptistchurches[dot]com website and read the whole What We Believe. Result:

1) No mention of Israel.
2) No mention of Jews
3) No mention of pre-trib rapture.
4) Election mentioned once in ARTICLE IX OF GOD'S PURPOSE OF GRACE
"We believe that election is the eternal purpose of God, according to which He graciously regenerates, sanctifies and saves sinners;"

I might suggest that if your local congregation is caught up in Darbyite teaching, that it just may be departing from the historic roots of Missionary Baptists.