The IRA.....Once a terrorist organization or freedom fighters? You decide.

reply to post by auraelium


Well I didn't mention britains past transgressions because I assumed everyone already did know That they were not innocent. The Government not the civilians mind you. All governments are crappy and lie. Still fighting back by killing people not directly involved is a useless and pointless gesture. All you do is increase the time after the conflict for people to forget. Still the Past is nothing to do with IRA tactics and sins. Their actions dictated their destiny.

Originally posted by alldaylong

Originally posted by auraelium
reply to post by yuppa

 

First of all the IRA were only one side of the coin, Its strange you should single them out for criticism and completly ignore the fact that the British army and unionist paramilitary groups comitted just as many atrocitys and killed just as many people.

You dont seem to know much about the subject, i dont mean to be putting you down by saying so but the troubled history of Ireland is a long and complicated story, with the troubles of the 60s,70s and 80s being only the final chapter.You have to know the history of Ireland to understand the hatred for the Crown and and how it came about.

How hundreds of thousands of people were thrown off their land in Northern Ireland in the centurys proceding and how their land was given away free to scotish protestants.How 1.5 million people died of hunger during the potato famine while the Crown stood by and done nothing,How the Penal laws were introduced forbidding all catholics (90% of the population) from owning land, practicing their religion or even speaking their native language or attending schools.Even young children were executed for doing so at the that time.Adults were hung drawn and quartered.My own home town was laid siege to by Cromwell, he offered the inhabitants and amnesty to surrender, after they accepted he gave the order for them to be slaughtered, 17,000 men, women and children.These are the things that hatred is born of, and much of that hatred was justified.The troubles in NI were Britains chickens coming home to roost.

You forgot to explain why Cromwell invaded Ireland. It was in retaliation for the Irish Catholic Army that fought on the side of Charles I and his Royalists. Cromwell and his New Model Army where fighting for Parliamentary Democracy. The Irish fought against that.

Nonsense,Cromwells invasion of Ireland was purely a religious crusade. It had one goal and that was to stamp out catholicism once and for all.Most of his time in Ireland was spent traveling around the country burning churches and executing any clergy he came across.He only sacked Wexford and Dundalk so he could use their ports to supply his troops.

Why should the people of Ireland care about Parliamentary Democracy in England? if didnt effect them.Parliamentary Democracy didnt stop the atrocitys comitted against them in the years after,if anything it got worse.

reply to post by auraelium


Here is a free history lesson for you:-

en.wikipedia.org...

Now tell me that it's "Nonsense"

Originally posted by scotsdavy1
reply to post by Sinny

 

So if you hate us 'Brits' so much, why are you living here then?
And us Scots never had a bad word to say about anyone in Ireland, Catholic or Protestant ..

How do you exspect me to answer that?

You'd need to ask my grandfather who moved the family here after Thomas was killed. Unfortunately he passed away 5 years ago. All I can relay is what they rest of the familt state.

reply to post by yuppa


Back in the 70's my class was on a field trip to a "home expo" of some sorts in London (near Camden if memory serves). We ate lunch at the central snack area, finished our trip and went back to school.
The next day, a bomb had gone off in a dust bin at the snack area. Courtesy of the IRA. I was 12 or 13 at the time. Not a soldier, not a fighter, not a politician.
Just some gangly kid.

Yes. I'd say terrorist organisation.

Originally posted by yuppa

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by mr-lizard
And you retaliate by blowing children to pieces. Innocent people who have nothing to do with the conflict.

Bravo.

My ex-brother in laws grandfather was in the original IRA and fought for Irish independence. He thought the provisional IRA were a bunch of murdering terrorists and he most certainly did not support them.

Well the Original One must have been worlds better than the ones who took on the name afterwards. And SInny you have my condolences about having a uncle who is so bitter. My shows how much he cares about family if he would shoot his own relatives. People need to let go of past hatreds to move forward. Hatred is still letting them win. Better to not play the game. I dislike the IRA's actions(new IRA not the old one) Not the people themselves.

Please don't insult me with your condolences, they are not needed. I've had a very troubled up bringing with my depressive acoholic mother, at the age of 16 it finally came to light why she had had depression all her life, when she was drunk in tears and said "My Ma, my Ma!! I left that pub, and came out and found her body, stabbed 57 times by those 2 fookin soldiers".

And that's without watching my uncle die a slow and painful death over a perios of 2 weeks layin in the hospital, shot through the neck and head. Also not including the other lives lost over there.

So please, don't insult me. I may be second generation, but the effects are still profound.

reply to post by Sinny


You live in Brum and so do i. So tell me your thoughts on this:-

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by alldaylong


Warnings were given. Action not taken.

What more is there to say?

Originally posted by Sinny
reply to post by alldaylong

 

Warnings were given. Action not taken.

What more is there to say?

Pathetic answer. There would have been "No Need For Warnings" If bombs had not been placed in the Pubs in the first place. So you agree that the bombs should have been put there then?

Originally posted by Sinny
Please don't insult me with your condolences, they are not needed. I've had a very troubled up bringing with my depressive acoholic mother, at the age of 16 it finally came to light why she had had depression all her life, when she was drunk in tears and said "My Ma, my Ma!! I left that pub, and came out and found her body, stabbed 57 times by those 2 fookin soldiers".

And that's without watching my uncle die a slow and painful death over a perios of 2 weeks layin in the hospital, shot through the neck and head.

I am sorry to hear about the loss of your grandmother and uncle.

Why did two soldiers stab your grandmother 57 times outside a pub?

Why was your uncle shot through the neck and head?

Was that a different uncle from the one who told you he would shoot you if you joined the British army?

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by Sinny
Please don't insult me with your condolences, they are not needed. I've had a very troubled up bringing with my depressive acoholic mother, at the age of 16 it finally came to light why she had had depression all her life, when she was drunk in tears and said "My Ma, my Ma!! I left that pub, and came out and found her body, stabbed 57 times by those 2 fookin soldiers".

And that's without watching my uncle die a slow and painful death over a perios of 2 weeks layin in the hospital, shot through the neck and head.

I am sorry to hear about the loss of your grandmother and uncle.

Why did two soldiers stab your grandmother 57 times outside a pub?

Why was your uncle shot through the neck and head?

Was that a different uncle from the one who told you he would shoot you if you joined the British army?

Yup, different uncle, as that ones dead... My nan got into an argument with them when off duty, over "the troubles" so they stabbed her to death and her husband (not my grandad). As far as I know my uncle was working in a brewery with all his co-workers when they stormed the place and shot them all on the spot.

Thanks for the sincere condolences.

Originally posted by alldaylong
reply to post by auraelium

 

Here is a free history lesson for you:-

en.wikipedia.org...

Now tell me that it's "Nonsense"

What you posted does'nt contradict what i am saying. You said Cromwells Invasion was done in revenge, It wasnt, it was a Religious crusade to stamp out Catholicism. its was done to crush catholicism completly from all the British Isles. Cromwell had a pathological hatred of Catholics the same as Hitler had for the Jews.Revenge didnt come into it.when Cromwell wasnt holidaying in Ireland he was travelling around England burning and slaughtering catholics there too.He was a religious fanatic who comitted genocide.

Originally posted by Sinny

Originally posted by yuppa

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by mr-lizard
And you retaliate by blowing children to pieces. Innocent people who have nothing to do with the conflict.

Bravo.

My ex-brother in laws grandfather was in the original IRA and fought for Irish independence. He thought the provisional IRA were a bunch of murdering terrorists and he most certainly did not support them.

Well the Original One must have been worlds better than the ones who took on the name afterwards. And SInny you have my condolences about having a uncle who is so bitter. My shows how much he cares about family if he would shoot his own relatives. People need to let go of past hatreds to move forward. Hatred is still letting them win. Better to not play the game. I dislike the IRA's actions(new IRA not the old one) Not the people themselves.

Please don't insult me with your condolences, they are not needed. I've had a very troubled up bringing with my depressive acoholic mother, at the age of 16 it finally came to light why she had had depression all her life, when she was drunk in tears and said "My Ma, my Ma!! I left that pub, and came out and found her body, stabbed 57 times by those 2 fookin soldiers".

And that's without watching my uncle die a slow and painful death over a perios of 2 weeks layin in the hospital, shot through the neck and head. Also not including the other lives lost over there.

So please, don't insult me. I may be second generation, but the effects are still profound.

You bemoan violence toward your family, but can't condone violence against innocent people murdered in 2 Birmingham Pubs. In my eyes that is called a hypocrite.
Please tell me what involvement did those pub goers have in the troubles in Ireland? They where not Government officials or part of the British Security Services. They where people on a night out to have a good time with their friends. The youngest victim was just 18 years of age.

Originally posted by auraelium

Originally posted by alldaylong
reply to post by auraelium

 

Here is a free history lesson for you:-

en.wikipedia.org...

Now tell me that it's "Nonsense"

What you posted does'nt contradict what i am saying. You said Cromwells Invasion was done in revenge, It wasnt, it was a Religious crusade to stamp out Catholicism. its was done to crush catholicism completly from all the British Isles. Cromwell had a pathological hatred of Catholics the same as Hitler had for the Jews.Revenge didnt come into it.when Cromwell wasnt holidaying in Ireland he was travelling around England burning and slaughtering catholics there too.He was a religious fanatic who comitted genocide.

Lord Stafford raised an Irish Catholic Army to fight along side Charles I You may not realise, but Cromwell was at War with Charles I, thus making Staffords Irish Army his enemy. Cromwell went into Ireland in retaliation for Staffords stance against a free a democratic Parliament.

reply to post by alldaylong


Obviously this issue is personnal to my self, so don't exspect a non-bias reply.

The Provisional IRA were infiltrated to the highest levels by Mi5 since at least the early eighties. Anybody know who Denis Donaldson was? And it wasn't just corrupted members, there were many under cover agents at work throughout the organisation

The British government knew a lot more than they ever let on. I suspect we would all be horrified if we knew the extent to which they mishandled the NI sitution.As seen in the Birmingham 6 and Guilford 4 cases, the British government don't mind lying through their teeth to incriminate innocent people, of horrific crimes, while the real perpetrators waltz away free as a bird

Such callousness makes you wonder what else they might have done.

Funny how Martin McGuinness had no problem accepting honors from QE2.

When British film director Ken Loach was asked why he refused such honors from the queen, he replied that the honors list was a club for scoundrels that he'd rather not be part of.

Here's a good song about the Troubles: Joe McDonnell by the Wolfe Tones

www.youtube.com...

I've no chip on my shoulder about the Brits and will generally support them, but what many people don't realise is that British interference and rule in Ireland was every bit as brutal as the likes of the Soviets in Eastern Europe and other 'enemy' nations throughout history.

Originally posted by scotsdavy1
reply to post by Sinny

 

So if you hate us 'Brits' so much, why are you living here then?
And us Scots never had a bad word to say about anyone in Ireland, Catholic or Protestant ..

Glasgow Rangers?

Originally posted by MortlitantiFMMJ
Here's a good song about the Troubles: Joe McDonnell by the Wolfe Tones

www.youtube.com...

I've no chip on my shoulder about the Brits and will generally support them, but what many people don't realise is that British interference and rule in Ireland was every bit as brutal as the likes of the Soviets in Eastern Europe and other 'enemy' nations throughout history.

Yes and you can add to that The European's brutality towards Native American Indians.

Originally posted by MortlitantiFMMJ

Originally posted by scotsdavy1
reply to post by Sinny

 

So if you hate us 'Brits' so much, why are you living here then?
And us Scots never had a bad word to say about anyone in Ireland, Catholic or Protestant ..

Glasgow Rangers?

What has a football team like rangers got to do with what I said about Irish people ?
I'm Protestant and my wife is catholic and we went back to Northern and Southern Ireland just last year and thought the people were really great and friendly. Second time we have been there.