I've Had A Change Of Heart On The Boy Scouts.

reply to post by Dragoon01

Our troop has never once received any public funding. I am not aware of any public funding going to our district or council. In fact my understanding is that the so called "public funding" amounts to nothing more than the use of schools to have meetings.

FYI

In recent years the U.S. Mint produced commemorative Boy Scouts coins as a 3.5 million dollar fundraiser for the Boy Scouts of America. The BSA gets federal funds from the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development. The U.S. military has been supporting the Boy Scouts’ Jamboree since the 1930s with contractors and $2 million a year in Defense Department funding.

link

I teach my son everything the boyscouts do and more. I take him camping with my trusted friends and their sons, we even bring the ladies every now and then. It saddens me that some boys who dont have a male figure and join the boyscouts are under attack. These people want to turn the boyscouts into.a.rainbow fest.for.their.political agenda.

reply to post by Rockpuck

Originally posted by Rockpuck
... they should not be permitted to infringe on straight people's privacy, comfort or personal sensibilities.

Rock! I'm surprised at this. Let's put the shoe on the other foot here for one moment. Imagine you're a Muslim whose "personal sensibilities" are HIGHLY offended by a movie that depicts the prophet. Should the producers of that movie be permitted to "infringe on other people's comfort and personal sensibilities" with their movie?

I'm just saying. There is no right not to be offended. There is a right, however, to free speech and expression.

As a woman I have spent most of my adult life with men ogling my breasts without compunction, I gotta say, buck up. Get used to it and take it like a man. I do... Surely the marines (and the boy scouts) can, too.

I agree with the OP. If the boy scouts are going to discriminate, they shouldn't receive federal funding.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Rock! I'm surprised at this. Let's put the shoe on the other foot here for one moment. Imagine you're a Muslim whose "personal sensibilities" are HIGHLY offended by a movie that depicts the prophet. Should the producers of that movie be permitted to "infringe on other people's comfort and personal sensibilities" with their movie?

Hi, it's been awhile since I've debated with you. I don't like strawmen though, just throwing that out there.
The movie is an issue of freedom of speech. Gays not being allowed into a private organization is an issue of freedom of speech. This is all true. The differences are quite wide however. As a private organization it would be akin to a asking whether a specific movie theater should be permitted to display said movie. And in the strawman you propose the gays and the Muslims are in fact on the same side of the argument here.

This is why strawmen suck. Don't use the strawman.

I'm just saying. There is no right not to be offended. There is a right, however, to free speech and expression.

That's actually not true. I cannot walk into a womans shower room at the gym and sit on the bench. But, according to the strawman you lay out, since women have no right to offense, I should be permitted to go where I please...? Or does it only work one way and not the other? In a public place it's all fair game. In a private organization it is NOT fair game.

As a woman I have spent most of my adult life with men ogling my breasts without compunction, I gotta say, buck up. Get used to it and take it like a man. I do... Surely the marines (and the boy scouts) can, too.

DOH! Another strawman! If you had said "As a woman I have spent most of my adult life with naked men staring at me in the shower and changing rooms" it would have been relevant.

I agree with the OP. If the boy scouts are going to discriminate, they shouldn't receive federal funding.

THAT I agree with. But I also don't think the Feds should be giving to any private organization whether they discriminate or not.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by Dragoon01

 

Our troop has never once received any public funding. I am not aware of any public funding going to our district or council. In fact my understanding is that the so called "public funding" amounts to nothing more than the use of schools to have meetings.

FYI

In recent years the U.S. Mint produced commemorative Boy Scouts coins as a 3.5 million dollar fundraiser for the Boy Scouts of America. The BSA gets federal funds from the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development. The U.S. military has been supporting the Boy Scouts’ Jamboree since the 1930s with contractors and $2 million a year in Defense Department funding.

link

edit on 27-9-2012 by seabag because: (no reason given)

Slightly off topic.........BUT........Those funds probably come out of, and are counted as recruiting. Boy Scouts (especially eagle scouts) are highly recruited. To the point that Eagle Scouts will go in as an E-3 I beleive. Same thing with Civil Air Patrol cadets and their Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz Award recepients (CAP awards considered the rough equivelant of eagle scout). Other youth organizations have similar programs the military "sponsers". These kids know about leadership, the outdoors and survival, team work, etc.......Something like 25 or 30% of the last decades Air Force Academy appointees were either Eagle Scouts and/or Mitchell Award recipients.

reply to post by SrWingCommander


I think some of it also has to do with the number of military families in the Boy Scouts. I know in my troop when we did something for the Veterans literally every single one of our fathers were vets. And since I was raised in an Air Force town I'd say at least 75% of our active leaders were active duty Air Force. I don't recall getting money from the government, but we did do a lot of projects and visits to the base.

reply to post by SrWingCommander

Slightly off topic.........BUT........Those funds probably come out of, and are counted as recruiting.

Oh, I wasn’t arguing with him. If you/he says the money (and “RULES”) hasn’t reached him and his troop then I totally believe him; I wouldn’t know.

The fact that it hasn’t reached him doesn’t mean BSA isn’t receiving federal funding though.

I was a boy scout, made it all the way to eagle.

I think it is funny that posters in the thread are recycling the same arguments that have been made against gays and atheists being in BSA. When I was in boy scouts there was at least 5 gay teenagers I knew, I saw them at scout camp every year. I slept in the same tent with two of them them nearly every night...why.... because they were my friends, not once did they ever come on to me or anyone else. This argument that its the same as putting a straight female in a room with straight males is absurd, because gay guys don't actively try to convert straight men into being gay, they often look to be with OTHER gay guys.

They were always afraid of being outed, because they loved scouting and two of them were Mormons (being gay in Mormonism is not a fun thing, especially when your a teenager).

Atheists not being allowed in is actually quite rare, a lot of troops are happy to have anyone new come into the troop, however there is still this don't ask don't tell mentality.

I just don't get it, I don't see how people can reject youths from learning because of a sexual orientation or a philosophical ideology. Even if they were not a publicly funded organization (which they are) they would still be guilty of bigotry.

reply to post by Openeye


Because it's all about conformity. Some people are taught that everybody has to obey certain rules set by society.Usually, it's the parents that teach their kids that everybody has to obey the same rules. Individuality is not of any value to these people. And they really can't understand anything else.

reply to post by Openeye

Even if they were not a publicly funded organization (which they are) they would still be guilty of bigotry.

Great story but….

Exercising your 1st amendment rights is bigotry in your book?? Freedom of Association? How do you think I’d be welcomed at a Black Panther meeting? Would you be voicing your concern for my exclusion?

reply to post by EvilSadamClone

Because it's all about conformity. Some people are taught that everybody has to obey certain rules set by society.

There is a rule against pedophilia, too. Should we not ‘conform’ to that societal norm?

Usually, it's the parents that teach their kids that everybody has to obey the same rules. Individuality is not of any value to these people. And they really can't understand anything else.

What a load. There are many differences between individual boy scouts. It’s convenient that you dodged all of the relevant arguments opposed to homosexuals sleeping or showering with heterosexuals.

Keep pushing the agenda….as long as it’s OK by you and the left that’s all that matters, right?

reply to post by seabag

Great story but….

Exercising your 1st amendment rights is bigotry in your book?? Freedom of Association? How do you think I’d be welcomed at a Black Panther meeting? Would you be voicing your concern for my exclusion?

Um yes...the 1st amendment protects bigotry. I'm not saying that they have no right to do it, I'm saying that it is morally wrong.

The Black panthers, the KKK, Neo-Nazi's, all of their speech and activities (most of their activities I guess) are protected.

But people like myself find it necessary to use speech to speak out against bigotry in attempt to open up a dialaouge so solutions and progress can be made. That's why this country is so great....

reply to post by Openeye

Um yes...the 1st amendment protects bigotry. I'm not saying that they have no right to do it, I'm saying that it is morally wrong.

Who says we share the same morals?

So you’d rather forego FREEDOM and instead instill your own morality?

NO THANKS……..I’LL PASS!

The Black panthers, the KKK, Neo-Nazi's, all of their speech and activities (most of their activities I guess) are protected.

All speech is protected!!

But people like myself find it necessary to use speech to speak out against bigotry in attempt to open up a dialaouge so solutions and progress can be made. That's why this country is so great....

I’m glad you’re speaking out. BUT, when you speak of limiting the rights of other we have a problem (as well as a bit of hypocrisy on your part). Why do you get freedom while trying to deny other’s theirs?

reply to post by seabag

I’m glad you’re speaking out. BUT, when you speak of limiting the rights of other we have a problem (as well as a bit of hypocrisy on your part). Why do you get freedom while trying to deny other’s theirs?

If you look back at my previous posts not once did I advocate legislation which would force the BSA to admit gays and atheists, and I would oppose such legislation.

I said

But people like myself find it necessary to use speech to speak out against bigotry in attempt to open up a dialaouge so solutions and progress can be made.

This dialogue is an active form of speech which will continually challenge an irrational notion.

Who says we share the same morals?

We probably don't, however I think certain forms of morality can be judged objectively. For example the reason why gays and atheists are not allowed in scouting has a religious connotation, which in my opinion has no bases in reality, therefore there is no rational reason to deny them entry. This is especially true when it comes to atheists; a valid argument could be made about allowing gay teenagers to sleep in the same tents as straight boys but the argument is very very thin because there is no evidence that gay teenagers in scouting are coaxing straight teenagers into sex.

reply to post by seabag

There is a rule against pedophilia, too. Should we not ‘conform’ to that societal norm?

You do understand that society's norm do change over the years don't you? It's really only somewhat recently, and because of the media's machinations to sell newspapers, that pedophilia is unacceptable and everybody's paranoid over it.

For example, did you know that by today's standards, Charlie Chaplin would be considered a pedophile? One of his wives, one Lita Grey, was 16 when they married. People didn't bat an eye.

And in the 1800s, it was common for a fifteen year old girl to marry a much older man.

When the hubbub over pedophilia dies down, unless the media uses it to carry more news papers, I think people could realize how silly they've been.

Don't get me wrong, I'm against sexual molestation, but right now there is a huge over reaction to it in America.

What a load. There are many differences between individual boy scouts. It’s convenient that you dodged all of the relevant arguments opposed to homosexuals sleeping or showering with heterosexuals.

Those were completely irrelevant to my point about discrimination and receiving public funds. And many Boy Scouts do have to hide some of their personality or risk being ousted because they don't follow the beliefs of the BSA or the just don't fit in for whatever reason. I was kicked out of the BSA because I was hyperactive and it was hard to control me.

Keep pushing the agenda…as long as it’s OK by you and the left that’s all that matters, right?

My only agenda is to end wrongful discrimination. You obviously haven't read my position: If the BSA wants to receive public funding then it should be completely open to the public and not discriminate. If it wants to be a private organization, it should be funded only by private funding. If the BSA was a completely private organization, which it claims to be, I don't care if it doesn't want to allow homosexuals or atheists or whatever. I believe in the right to privacy and the right of association. As long as they want to remain a private organization.

After all, public business and places are not allowed to discriminate against people, or have you forgotten that? It's wrong to be a private organization and receive public funding while discriminating against people. It's hypocritical.

You really should follow your own statements about personal attacks, and not personally attack somebody just because you disagree with them, and not put words into people's mouth.

Originally posted by seabag
reply to post by Annee

 

Big Man fears crack me up.

Oh it’s not ‘fear’ its more like discomfort.

It’s very unsettling to have a meat gazer in the shower with you. It’s more detrimental to his health than mine; that I can assure you.

Its not discomfort its fear - - gotta protect the "MANHOOD".

Men are hilarious that way.

Funny - - percentage by gender - - there are probably more lesbians in the military then gays. How often to you hear women fearing Lesbian's checking them out?

reply to post by Annee


Please keep it civil.

Originally posted by seabag


Why do gays feel the need to force their position and flaunt their status?

So its only YOUR world.

What do you suggest - - they go live on another planet?

They are just people. Just like you.

reply to post by EvilSadamClone

You do understand that society's norm do change over the years don't you? It's really only somewhat recently, and because of the media's machinations to sell newspapers, that pedophilia is unacceptable and everybody's paranoid over it.

So pedophilia is OK?

I’m done! You’re beyond hope. Please keep your twisted views out of the BSA; there is no place for it there.

People who think like you are the reason for this discrimination.

reply to post by seabag


Stop cherry picking and straw manning me.

I did state I did believe that child molestation is not okay.


Stop putting words in my mouth and read my entire post.