Israel /= Jew

It has become quite apparent that some people in this thread cannot grasp the simple concept this thread is about.

If we are going to be able to discuss the geo-political situation in the world today, we must separate the religions from the governments.

Pretty simple if you ask me. Some of you are hung-up on minute little things that really do not take away the fact that we have to be able to have these types of discussions.

No nation is beyond reproach and it's time we quit equating anti-Israel opinions to antisemitism.

Isn't that easy to understand?

Originally posted by DaesDaemar
reply to post by dontreally

 

I think you'll find that slavic peoples have been opressed/enslaved just as long as jewish. Only difference is they don't have a unifying factor and constantly talk about it.

If you continually talk about being the victim, you always will be one. It's time to move forward.

Fair comment.

Unfortunately, the attitudes towards Jewish people in general in certain regions of the world have not evolved, and therein lies the cause of the perceived feeling of being victimized by Jews in those regions.

I am a Sephardic Jew that was born and raised in Toronto, Canada. Thankfully, I grew up with absolutely no sense of being victimized or discriminated against. Thus, I can't relate on a personal level to the "victim" mentality that exists among Jews who have directly or indirectly been victims of persecution, or have relatives that were subjected to persecution.

I take pride in my Jewish ancestry, but I identify myself as more of a proud Canadian. I would fit in the category of someone who is well versed in Jewish history, but moved on from the issues that have plagued the Jewish people in the past.

Then again, it's easy for me to say that, because I was afforded the luxury of being raised in one of the greatest countries in the world, wherein multiculturalism and tolerance comprise the very fabric of society.

reply to post by MrInquisitive



When I started looking for source material, most of what came up was Jewish or Israeli centered, and figured immediately anyone not of that view would find that suspect. I understand that. there were several other sites, including some with demographic data from the time, but I did not have time to go through it. However; one could easily make the argument that the PLO and Arabs have successfully "pushed" their version of the story enough that Israeli's points fall to the way side. BOTH sides have engaged in actions that could be called "terrorism" or are underhanded at best, to get "their" point across. Both groups trying to pass their veiw of the situation as "right". Both probably have put forward positions of truth, and both have probably put forward positions that were false, in their fervor to present their "case" to the world.

I'll be the first to admit, there is alot about the founding of Israel that is suspect and/or underhanded. However; the lines of the rest of the Middle East were also pretty much drawn by the UK. No one really disputes the other borders. Only the founding of Israel get's such dispute.

For example, "Kurdistan" got left out all together, being thrown in all together with the hodgepodge that is Iraq. It's been a headache for the US forces their, but you never heard much about it, even though the Kurds and Arab Iraqi's waged combat over it off and on for 30 years, including the use of chemical weapons (thats when most people heard about it, in the run up to the gulf wars, "Saddam gassed the Kurds"). TransJordan became Jordan, but portions of territory were left out (and includes the West Bank...most of the "Palestinian's" of the West bank are displaced Jordanian's. Kuwait and Iraq's borders have always been disputed by the two. Lebanon was relatively Christian until the Arabs had enough of that. On top of that, Sharon and Clinton offered a 2 state solution for Israel/Palestine Again, Arafat walked out. Same thing essentially happend in 1947-8, and the Arabs walked away, chosing war instead of a settlement. Who's "right" in these situations.

Yet only Israel seems to be of real dispute in so far of the "rightness" of the situation. Of course, could it be the other disputes are "Muslim to Muslim" and not "Jewish to Muslim"???? OR could it be the founding of Israel as a state discredits the Koran??? I mean Hebrew Israel/Judah pretty much ceased to exist in 70AD. The rise of Mohammad and writings of the Koran, spread of Islam was in the 600-800AD time frame, yet the Koran still rails about "the Jew".....a people that were mostly scattered from the area almost 500 years before?!?. Does not the reestablishment of a Jewish state not rock Islam to it's very core. Since it was prophesied in the Bible/Old Testement, before Islam was founded, and then actually happened..........well, let's just say that's an awfully large coincidence, but that gets more into the religous points of this and not the political. Which are relevant, but go deeper than I can get into now.

In fact, I would like to go into this more, but have little time today, employment duties call............

Originally posted by gravitational
reply to post by Kang69

 

“Over 5 million Palestinians were displaced after the state of Israel was created. What did Palestine have to do with anything in WW2? Nothing. You know why they got displaced? Because there brown”

Where do you get these nonsense from?
Better yet, why do you have to resort to lies and exaggerations to make a point ?

I can't remember the source off the top of my head, but even the PLO only claimed 800,000 to 1.2 million people.

Israeli and several Brithish sources at the time claim it was probably less than 650,000. Many of those left BEFORE the creation of Israel, knowing there would be a war, and even being told by some Arab officials at the time. If you get out, are armies will get in, then you can come back. Didn't quite work out that way.

Israel, like all countries, is an arbitrarily demarcated section of landmass. ...and ever-expanding one at that! The people that inhabit this land are Arabs.

Judaism is a fictitious belief system based on the Abrahamic take on such superstition. Jews are adherents to this "faith".

The only commonality between the country of Israel and Jews is the place happens to be what the Jews' brand of dogma cites as their so-called "holy land".

Originally posted by Sablicious
Israel, like all countries, is an arbitrarily demarcated section of landmass. ...and ever-expanding one at that! The people that inhabit this land are Arabs.

Judaism is a fictitious belief system based on the Abrahamic take on such superstition. Jews are adherents to this "faith".

The only commonality between the country of Israel and Jews is the place happens to be what the Jews' brand of dogma cites as their so-called "holy land".

Your ignoring the fact that the "dogma" and "faith" of said holy land is subscribed to by 3 relgions not one.

Prior to Israel the land was in habited by Semites, Arabs, Turks, and those of Eastern Mediteranian descent, subscribing to Christianity (Eastern and Western), Islam, Judiaism, Druse, Coptics, and "gasp".....probably a few athiests too. All of these groups have long standing histories in the land going back THOUSANDS of years. The specifics of each groups claims maybe debatable to one degree or another, but all groups, Jews included have history there. You may align with one group or disagree with another, but to state what you stated (that essentially the Jews have no claim) is intellectually dishonest.

reply to post by sheepslayer247


what simply wrong >? you need to look back in your history my memberus friend ..

in how Isreal was Formed after WW2 = Jews plea US & Europe for a Nation of thier Own... and they got it ..

planned before WW2 this Plea but was never Resolved until after the War ....


Ironcaly The Nazi's Planned to have Madagascar for the Jews

Madagascar Plan

en.wikipedia.org...

and Jew = Hebrew Culture = Zionist State = Funded by Zionist Major Corpeation Owners

ok it not all Jews just 77 percent , and the rest of the Arabics are from Plaistine

reply to post by Wolfenz


I understand all that. My point is that we should be able to talk about Israel without dissenting opinion being automatically labeled antisemitic.

People keep going off and talking about where the Jewish people came from and if the deserve the land they occupy. That's not what this is about.

reply to post by sheepslayer247


Will the Messiah return Jewish?

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by DaesDaemar

 

It's amazing that this religion which preaches such selfless love, could produce the exact opposite. Cardinal Bertram of Germany fully expresses Christianities response to the Jews: after Hitler was reported dead, Cardinal Bertram scheduled a requiem mass for the fuhrer.

Just imagine. He had been told throughout the war, from 1941 onwards, that the Nazis were massacring Jews; in 1943, he became aware of their extermination program.. 2 years later, Hitler dies, and he scheduled a requiem mass for the man he knew was the single greatest mass murderer in human history.

edit on 26-9-2012 by dontreally because: (no reason given)

To say that expresses Christianities respose to the Jews is absolute and complete nonsense. I'm afraid the chip on your shoulder really weighs too heavily there. Why do you think this was Christian doctrine as opposed to the reaction of one person in a country that had just lost a war? You have put forward some very eloquent points - ones that I appreciate but didn't really need reminding of, and then you make this ridiculous point.

reply to post by eyetoeye


I don't believe in a messiah, so I have no skin in the game. If he/she does return, I hope they are all things to all people.

It would suck if God forgot about all other religions that uphold his ideals as they interpret them.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by Wolfenz

 

I understand all that. My point is that we should be able to talk about Israel without dissenting opinion being automatically labeled antisemitic.

People keep going off and talking about where the Jewish people came from and if the deserve the land they occupy. That's not what this is about.

Sheepslayer, the sad fact is that even though that is what you think, that is not what many people in here think. There have been many threads on here that talk about destroying Israel and I'm fairly sure they are not making distinctions based on faith/ethnicity - they see Israel as Jewish - you are flattering the intelligence of those people by trying to make such a distinction. If you are not careful you will fall into the hole of saying 'I'm not racist but.............'.
I understand your intentions, but unless you believe you stand for the majority of anti Israel posters on here (I don't think you do), then this is a well intentioned post that may just be used against your actual belief.

reply to post by something wicked


I disagree. There are people on ATS that say destroy Israel, but no more than those that claim we need to destroy Iran. These extreme views do not reflect the majority on ATS.

I will not let these extremists pigeon-hole myself or other members as racists or bigots just because we wish to have an adult conversation about Israel without the religion aspect being a part of it.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by Wolfenz

 

I understand all that. My point is that we should be able to talk about Israel without dissenting opinion being automatically labeled antisemitic.

People keep going off and talking about where the Jewish people came from and if the deserve the land they occupy. That's not what this is about.

No the Problem shouldnt be Anti Semetic it SHOULD BE Anti-Zionist

that where the Problem is

Ok Where did Actually the Jews Come from where ? in the Middle East well ... kinda sorta (Sumar)

ISNT Israel Controled by a Religion a Hebrew Religion refering Jews the Part of the so called 12 tribes of Abraham's Children Hebrew ..

ok then

Middle East [[ except for Israel ]] = Arabs = Muslim (Majority)

Im not Anti Semetic

Im Anti - Zionist

Ironicaly one of the Most Anti Zionist Anti Isreal is the Orthodox Jews

a little more history a quick Breif

The Hardships of Jewish Immigration to the Land of Israel in the 1930s

At the beginning of the 20th century the immigration of Jews from Europe started to increase. Pogroms in Russia, Poland and later Germany drove Jews out of countries that had been their homelands for centuries. Many of them decided to return to the original home of the Jews, the land now known as Israel.

During the period before WW2 the returning Jews purchased large tracts of land from the Turks and from it’s Arab owners. With financial help from the likes of the Rothschild family, and a lot of hard work, they started to build the infrastructure of a modern state.

my.telegraph.co.uk...

so Israel is truly the Jews Homeland

but didnt King David conquer another residence for this Land a Take Over

Read kingship
according to brittanica online
David
www.britannica.com...

David entered Hebron, where he was proclaimed king. He had to struggle for a few years against the contending claim and forces of Ishbaal, Saul’s surviving son, who had also been crowned king, but the civil war ended with the murder of Ishbaal by his own courtiers and the anointing of David as king over all Israel (including tribes beyond Judah). He proceeded to conquer the walled city of Jerusalem, held by the alien Jebusites, which he made the capital of the new united kingdom, and to which he moved the sacred ark of the Covenant, the supreme symbol of Israelite religion. He defeated the Philistines so thoroughly that they were never again a serious threat to the Israelites’ security, and he annexed the coastal region. He went on to establish an empire by becoming the overlord of many small kingdoms bordering on Israel, including Edom, Moab, and Ammon. Beginning about 1000 bce (before the Common Era—bc), David’s reign lasted for about 40 years (until 962 bce).

well where did they the jews Originate the thier true Homland

as some scholars say Abraham is From Sumar ( Sumarian ) the Son of a Sumarian Oracle Priest


There you go Folks the Riddle is Solved

Hebrew's now can Invade modern Iraq in what was Sumarian Land

I want my Land Back !


that if we are talking about Jews the one tribr or the Hebrew 12 tribes


you may want to real about King Saul while your at it ...


Saul first king of Israel from the tribe of Benjamin ( Not Jew Judah )
en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by MrDesolate
reply to post by sheepslayer247

 

I think anyone who puts forth the argument that anti Israel doesn't equal anti Jew is looking for an excuse to be anti Jew without being called antisemitic, and I think anyone who finds anything at all humorous about Hitler has a strange sense of propriety. Especially when used together. You picked it, you wear it.

Really? You seriously think that everyone who has an issue with the Israeli governments' policies is antisemetic?
Isn't that a convenient way of attempting to avoid all criticism of Israeli foreign policy? I think you know deep down that it is.

reply to post by MrInquisitive


MrInquisitive: "I'm not sure just exactly what your point is, or who who are suggesting started the terrorism (it was done by both sides, Arab and Jew, by the way) but the Wikipedia article notes that the Arabs refused to go along with the proposed british scheme because the governing council the British were trying to set up would hold 12 seats, 8 Arab and..."

---

I am saying simply that if the Brits never conquered the region, there would not be any terrorism (associated with occupation of the region). They made the first offensive act. It doesn't matter if they offered them some seats on some council. If I came into your house, and killed your sons and daughters and took your house from you, but then said later that I will give some of it back to you, would you be happy?

The Ottomans probably did the same thing to some other peoples when they took control of the region, and the people who had control before that probably also did the same..

The truth is that ultimately, land, property or resources do not belong to anyone just because they were the first to be there, or for whatever other reason. These ideas of 'claim' and 'ownership' are mandated by people for their own benefit.

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by Wolfenz

 

I understand all that. My point is that we should be able to talk about Israel without dissenting opinion being automatically labeled antisemitic.

People keep going off and talking about where the Jewish people came from and if the deserve the land they occupy. That's not what this is about.

ATS threads (and a lot of other sites' as well) have a way of doing that, huh? Anyway, after reading this comment of yours, I refrained from replying to a comment of another respondent because we had gone tangential. So mea culpa on a couple of my posts in this thread, but I'm trying to stick with the program. I only hope that I can be an inspiration for other would-be commentors to do the same...

That said, let me go back and analyze the initial derailment of this thread. I can see how some of the respondents started diverging from the topic at hand because you, with your particular avatar, created this post. Being familiar with your other posts and comments, I assumed your avatar and sigs were meant ironically, but I can see how some might take umbrage with them, and how they may wonder what your agenda really was with this topic; hence, the fast track to talking about anti-semitism and everything else off-topic. So it is not entirely surprising that this thread devolved -- not that it wouldn't have as well if you had changed your avatar before creating this post.

reply to post by MrInquisitive


I don't think it would have mattered what my avatar was. Even though the avatar is meant to show Hitler in a funny and compromising position, some people will not see it that way and falsely believe that I may be a pro-Hitler kind of guy.

If they read my posts and threads, they would see otherwise.

But you used a very important word in your post.....agenda.

I have not posted anything to give that impression. Some people are just paranoid and must take the simple premise on the OP and turn it into something it's not.

Honestly, I don't care. Some people do have agenda and some people are outright stupid. I can't do anything about that and don't concern myself with it.

Perhaps it would help if Jewish and Arab people could acknowledge the fact that they come from a similar (if not the same) place, and that instead of a two nation solution, they could create a one nation state with equal rights for all citizens regardless of religion and the current state of politics.

epiphenom.fieldofscience.com...

news.bbc.co.uk...

news.sciencemag.org...