Calling all Masons.

Originally posted by KawRider9
1... To hire an outside, non-masonic company to do our investigations and back ground checks on potential candidates... I don't understand this at all and it seems highly moronic. Actually, it pisses me off that it's even being considered. Your thoughts?

The Grand Lodge of Florida has done this at least since all of my peers were investigated. The older fellas don't like it because a brother on the force could do 99% of the work for free. I tend to agree. (Upthread, the idea of a Mason with an interest in the background check company was mentioned. The idea's floated around.)

2... To allow Muslims wanting to join, the choice of using the Koran instead of the Holy Bible.....I don't want to sound like a Muslim hating racist, so I'll just say, I DON'T LIKE THIS! I can't go into what's said in our degree work here, but the Holy Bible is a big part of it. Your thoughts?

If it means not reading from the KJV at the appropriate time, not calling it "the Holy Bible" when the VSL is mentioned, or any other change to the ritual, then I agree. If you're talking about having a Koran on hand for the candidate to hold and kiss, that's a very different story.

Originally posted by mideast
reply to post by KawRider9

 

But , if you think there is any place for Jesus in freemasonry , I should tell you there is no place.

There is just moses and david and solomon. No jesus.

Anyway , they have built church for christians , but that doesn't mean they have accepted Jesus as a guide or teacher.

This isnt true...although only recently raised...i am sure Jesus has a part in Masonry..You gotta pay close attention to whats going on in the degrees

reply to post by KawRider9

To hire an outside, non-masonic company to do our investigations and back ground checks on potential candidates...

Well that would be a non-biased investigation I suppose? We just use publicly available information (criminal records) ... why you would ever need to hire someone is beyond me.

To allow Muslims wanting to join, the choice of using the Koran instead of the Holy Bible.....I don't want to sound like a Muslim hating racist, so I'll just say, I DON'T LIKE THIS!

??????? You ARE a Freemason right? If your grand lodge really does restrict the usage of the Quran then that is absolutely deplorable and insulting. If someone wanted to use a Torah or a Quran or the holy scriptures of Zoroastrianism that's entirely their choice.

Masonry is NOT a Christian organization.

reply to post by Baddguy


Degrees use old testament parables.

Jesus has no place in Masonry.

reply to post by Rockpuck



Why they would need to hire a third party is because it is a violation of TCIC/NCIC rules for local police to perform those searches for private orgs/clubs and any lodge member who is in law enforcement performing these searches for their lodges would be advised to stop as it is considered an abuse of the system. in some jurisdictions such as Texas an edict from the Grand Lodge was sent out to the lodges telling them to stop asking their law enforcement members to perform these checks . If a policeman is caught doing these searches may be fired or brought up on charges . You can get this info publicly , but it is not as in depth as it would be getting them through a third party background check by SIGNED WAIVER . I used both public records and third party background check and was surprised by what my public search left out .The candidate signs a waiver releasing ALL criminal history and pays the search fee himself . By having the waiver in hand our butts are covered by privacy laws . One may get his own criminal history or those of the deceased , but when it comes to everyone else there are certain records you may not obtain without a signed waiver .


I honestly believe that the OP misunderstood the legislation that was brought to the floor of his Grand Lodge session though . I highly doubt that it was an outside firm who is performing the investigations , but like us and so many others , they were making it mandatory to use a certain company to do background checks into a petitioner's criminal history . That criminal history is then given to the investigation committee to aid them in their decision .

The TCIC is for Texas , I was using it as an example . But it is a violation of using my states Criminal Information Center for private use also , and for lodge business is private use .

In the event that there is matter of importance which calls for a requisite particular to be invoked...
Let it be said that and agent and/or agency... of non masonic origin... is necessary.
Why? Imagine!

I seek you out... you respond... we greet... then I tell you: "Not So!"
You seek me out... I respond... we greet... then you tell me: "Not So!"
Tis better to hear that from one whose endeavors are of outter external agencies.
To know that masons must lend recourse to themslves to decide any affairs about an individual is likely un masonic.

Yet... Freemasons are in all things. Why fume???

Then there is the Muslim issue...
Unto that lend only the consideration he deserves... let him ask... but do not entreat.
If he does desire a partiicular book... then maybe he is not too interested in the way masons operate and would rather define his experience as a muslim candiidate. Which to me (IMHO) is dead wrong!

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Baddguy

 

Degrees use old testament parables.

Jesus has no place in Masonry.

one thing i noticed about Masonry is that everyone dosn't pick up on the same things!!...You must remember we follow the path of the Sun!! This gave it away for me!!!...when i fully digest or am able to fully explain how Jesus IS in Masonry without going against my oath i will just want to be sure and not talk out my a$$

Originally posted by Rockpuck


Degrees use old testament parables.

Jesus has no place in Masonry.

Lodges are dedicated to the "Holy Saints John", two Christian saints.

In most jurisdiction, Jesus is quoted in the opening prayer.

There are plenty of degrees that mention Jesus. Also, recall the phrase "Lion of the Tribe of Judah", coined by the author of the Apocalypse, refers to Jesus.

reply to post by Masonic Light


Blah. I prefer keeping Jesus entirely out of Masonry. The very inclusion of a specific Demigod is, imo, a violation of our most basic principles.

Originally posted by Rockpuck


Blah. I prefer keeping Jesus entirely out of Masonry. The very inclusion of a specific Demigod is, imo, a violation of our most basic principles.

I have to disagree. Christianity and Freemasonry cannot really be separated....they are entwined, and matured together. We even took our officer titles from the officer titles in the Church of England.

It is quite obvious that the Hiramic legend is patterned after the Christos / Osirisian / Mithraic mythos.

reply to post by Masonic Light


Titles and alagorical representations of a religious story are perfectly fine. You can apply the Hiramic legend to any number of religions through the theme alone.

But to mention a specific Demigod is to say one religion is better than any other. No specific religion or religious figures should be mentioned, as it's exclusive only to those that actually believe in that religion. It's on par with calling TGATU Yahweh. It makes Masonry a religion.

reply to post by Rockpuck


What do you feel about Christian side Orders?

I have a huge problem with English Masonry in that I cannot join most of the side Orders because I am not Christian. I also feel that it goes against the Spirit and goals of Freemasonry.

reply to post by Saurus


I have noooo problem with religious side orders. They are optional .. I can't and or won't join the York Rite because I don't personally identify as "Christian." But it doesn't exclude me from being a Mason. There are other side orders that are Deistic like the Scottish Rite that I'm a member of. Since all orders mandate you must be a Master Mason, being a Master Mason should not entale any form of religious exclusion or religious favoring.

Just my opinion anyways.

reply to post by Rockpuck


Strangely enough, in English Masonry, it's the opposite...

The Rose Croix demands a Trinitarian Christian faith, presumably because of the nature of the rituals. On the other hand, since the Royal Arch is considered the completion of the third degree, it has been de-Christianized to accomodate all Master Masons. (But that is as far as you can go, because KT does require a Christian faith, for obvious reasons.)

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by Rockpuck


Blah. I prefer keeping Jesus entirely out of Masonry. The very inclusion of a specific Demigod is, imo, a violation of our most basic principles.

I have to disagree. Christianity and Freemasonry cannot really be separated....they are entwined, and matured together. We even took our officer titles from the officer titles in the Church of England.

Although Masonry inst a religion...why do i get the feeling that its like a more raw form of Christianity with a much deeper teaching? IMO if you look at Jesus as a MAN just like your self and not a "demigod" then he wont seem so exclusive to a specific religion. Also i see a few similarities between Jesus and Hiram.

reply to post by KawRider9


sorry for being off topic
!!!!!!

reply to post by Rockpuck


York

1.) More and more many grand lodgs and the appendent bodies have had issuesespecially with finances due to less then scrupulous individuals getting into positions of book keeping. Many had prior run ins. A simple police record really is not very thurough. I'm all for getting better back ground checks done. I have zero issue with an outside company doing background checks...so long as it is not THE background check, that should of course still be done by brothers, but the info gained from such companies makes for good starting points, and topics for questioning the candidate to see if anything found is a real issue, and give them a chance to tell their side of it. The only real issue is cost...and that is of course always THE issue......but as many lodges have found out the hardway, the cost of letting a person of low character in, is much greater in the long run. I doubt any state lodge could afford a detailed back ground check for every candidate, but using some research service online? A good idea in my opinion.

2.) It is my understanding you can put whatever boook of faith or worship you use on the alter for your rituals. This is nothing new. It has always been such. That said, the holy Bible is always there as well....it never leaves. They simply have the option of also putting their religious text on the alter with it, and using it for the purpose of oaths. It makes total sense...if someone is Muslim and in a court of law which would make them more likely to speak truthfully an oath taken on a Koran or the Gospels? This is the reason they are allowed to put whatever text on the alter for the purpose of their degree.....but again usually teh Bible remains as well......you must know in other countries it is the reverse, in the middle east you might find the Koran on the alter, and it would be your option as a Christian to add the Bible as well........we are not a religious faith..... the purpose of this option is no different then that of a court of law......But I would prefer the Bible ALWAYS be there as well in MY state.

Hi All. I tried to join the Freemasons this year in the UK, Newbury in fact, the Thatcham lodge but because of my health i decided not to.
I am in fact a Brother of the "RAOB" which is the "Royal Antediluvian Order of Buffaloes" , and have been since 1980. They do a lot for Charity, and that's all i can tell you.
Like the Freemasons, lodge business is secret, but i suppose it's the same in a fashion?.
When i joined the "RAOB" there was no mention of the Bible which is just as well because i don't believe in an invisible entity where there is no proof of, i do however believe in Jesus Christ, and that the poor bugger was crucified for his beliefs, none of which i subscribe to, he was misguided because there is no God.
Now i don't want to stir up an hornets nest, i don't believe in god, and that's it, and no amount of brow beating, or conversion will make me think otherwise.
My point is, if there had been a bible in the joining ceremony of the Freemasons i would have not have joined simple as that, and they could have investigated me till they were blue in the face because i have not got criminal record of which i'm proud.