I'm struggling with Humility. How do we hold to our virtues in this day and age?

reply to post by obnoxiouschick


In you title, you claim to be struggling with humility. What, I ask, have you to be proud of, that makes this such a struggle?

Humility - the quality or condition of being humble
Humble - 1) marked by meekness or modesty 2)showing submissive respect
Meek - 1) patient and humble 2) submissive

You have defined humility with the circular logic of it being the defined by the act of being humble. You have not defined meekness or submission. You seem unclear on what it is you're seeking.

Why do you feel these qualities are important? Because you read it, or were told it? Are you too strong and overbearing and so are suppressing the weak people in your life? Why do you want to be meek? BTW, meekness and modesty are not interchangeable, where meekness tends to attribute a docile and easily led individual.

On the other hand, a modest person doesn't draw attention to their perceived virtues, and especially lack thereof. An OP like yours, tends to draw attention to, and seems to ask for confirmation from others, of your personal virtue.

So I'm struggling to understand.
struggling to live the way I want to live
How can one be humble when the government enrages us.

Is righteous anger a sin in your book? Is it defying God to be angry with the powers that be? Is standing up for the weak a sin against the virtue of "meekness.?" Is standing up for oneself and fighting against injustice a crime against the virtue of humility?

I am dealing with an illness. I am physically very weak and am a shadow of my former self.
I can understand why people go through questioning God when they are sick.
But I don't want to question God, I'm not losing faith. I understand my illness is from circumstances and I am not blaming God. I believe everything happens for a reason. I just want to feel like I am doing the best I can. To hold to faith even when I feel trapped by society, government, etc.

When I read the above, what I hear is someone who trying to reconcile their illness with the crimes of the government on one hand, and on the other hand, justifying their illness as God's will.

It's okay to be angry and feel worthy of a healthy life. It isn't a crime against the virtue of humility to rage against "God's will" and fight for your life and vitality. It's not a sin of pride to hold your head up and laugh and smile and enjoy the fruits of your life.

In your OP you come across as a victim of life because of the virtues you are trying to align yourself with. These efforts to reconcile your true feelings with the feelings that you think you should have are draining you of vitality and the very life force that makes you powerful.

For the weak to display meekness is not virtue, it's the powerful who must tame their avarice. For the unnamed masses of broken spirit, humility is not a virtue, it's those who are recognized for their deeds and accomplishments who are respected for humility.

Those who claim to be humble and meek are surely hypocrites who know nothing of the virtues of which they preach and claim to be representatives of.

Originally posted by backcase
reply to post by obnoxiouschick

 

Peace to you dear woman seeking Truth.

The best way to stay away from pride is to have contrition for your faults and sins. Compare yourself to Jesus Who is faultless and put all your trust into His infinite mercy. ask Jesus to increase in you humility, love, and all other virtues.

Remember always this thought: God loves everyone else just as much as He loves you. And if this is so, you will understand that it is vicious toward yourself and others, who know less than you do, to judge them.

Pity your enemies with a sorrowful love.

" mercy triumphs over judgement"

peace to you again good woman, there is a lot of good information in my threads created about virtue and spiritual life.

Thank you and yes I will check out your threads.
Another perspective that is insightful.
As I reflect and absorb more input this helps my understanding.
Thank you.

'Ol Windbags has been dragging around enough resentment to fill the trunk of an '85 Cadillac Fleetwood, for quite some time.

This individual has been deeply hurt by intimately close family. "Religious" intolerance and ignorance by those whom he/she loved most, sowed the seeds of hurt into his/her heart. These seeds have grown to produce the fruit of enmity, anger and spite towards anything even remotely considered "Christian" doctrine.

Sadly, as long as Windy continues this staunch aversion, he/she will never allow him/herself the opportunity to experience the wholeness and peace of true Infinite Grace.

I have a very, very close friend who is in this same predicament. Her mother died of breast cancer in her early 50's and in the prime of her life. My friend asked her mother's childhood Episcopal Church to do the funeral service and the church charged a fee for non-members. Her mother only went there as a child and had not attended the church regularly as an adult, and was no longer a member.
This was the seed of hurt sown in her heart. Over the years, it has festered and grown into a rancid fruit of disgust and intolerance.

reply to post by stupid girl


Instead of trying to be an ATS armchair psycho analyst of what makes a person argue against blind dogma, that only enslaves simple, humble people, how about addressing the content and subject matter of my posts.

What have I expressed in this thread that do you disagree with? How do you defend the fact that TPTB use the concept of humility against an already impotent population: That already keeps the weak meek?

Where is the strength in humility among the sick and where is the virtue of meekness in the weak and poor in spirit?

Do you really believe that people who sign up on ATS and immediately start created evangelical, blustering threads, touting their knowledge of virtue to really know what virtue is really about?

Feel free to read what I was posting while you were editing. www.abovetopsecret.com...

EDIT TO ADD:

These seeds have grown to produce the fruit of enmity, anger and spite towards anything even remotely considered "Christian" doctrine.

Despite your belief that you have the essence of true Christianity, I guarantee you that there is Biblical scripture to justify and back up every evil that "Christians" perpetrate.

reply to post by obnoxiouschick


Sometimes loving your enemies is as simple as putting up with their b.s., and instead of tearing their heads of and sh**ing down their throats the way they deserve, pray for the peace and the serenity to ignore the little trolls so they do not provoke you to anger. They do not know what theyre doing, or they wouldn't do it.

I, like you, have struggled with illness all of my life even having 13 major surgeries, having my bowels removed and given an ileostomy permamantly, going through depression, getting arthritis all ontop of the rough life i lived the first 17 years of my life. God sends us storms, so that we can learn to trust in him to get us through them, and so he can teach us how to be at peace with ourselves no matter what comes, even if we die.

The day is coming when we will have to make our stand, do we surrender to a government controlled by Satan or will we stand our ground and remain the salt of the earth? Do we compromise with the Evil One or rise up against him? What means more to us, this world or the kingdom to come? Time is so short, do not lose heart. Our King is coming, i can feel him drawing close. The fear the people feel of this world and this 12-21-12 stuff, they do not understand their dread. It's not the dread of the world ending, they fear His coming and on an instinctual level they know what is coming even if they don't know why. I am not saying he will return then, but it is a beginning. The biggest sign in the heavens since Christ's birth will take place that day, the last time this sign was seen was when Adam walked the earth.

reply to post by windword


The honest truth is that I typically do not read your posts, so I really don't know what all you hammered the OP about.
However, by her reaction to your post, I assumed it was true to your usual lashing-out at whomever is within range of your fist.

As long as you harbor this rage towards the family members who are betraying you, you are their slave. The opinions of your mother and family are controlling you; and more importantly-- how you perceive and interact with other people, thus how you are perceived by others.

What your Momma may not realize, is that she cannot save you, only God can. Your Momma should probably be spending more time working on her own warts, then worring about everyone else's. Obviously she is not aware that you don't have to verbally tell someone that you are praying for them for it to work. To be Christ-like, as to consider oneself "Christian", is to be an example of His mercy, compassion and genuine love to other people.....not perpetually slap them in the face with what you may personally deem as their mistakes and failures. We all have our own '85 Cadillac Fleetwood trunk-full of mistakes and failures to tend to.
Jesus was a friend to those whom everyone else cast judgment upon.
Only God can see the heart and only God has the true essence of Christianity.
The rest of us are works in progress.

The greatest strength is, in fact, in humility.
Imagine the strength it would take for you to humble yourself to your mother? Even though she is hurting you? Even though she is doing wrong by you?

That is what God did for us.
He humbled Himself to the degree of becoming part of His own creation.
He was done wrong by His own creation, and He washed our feet.
He was spit upon, mocked and falsely accused, and He was executed as a criminal.

He did all this for an incalculable number of reasons, one of them being to set the standard which defines humility.
Sometimes when I am allowing someone else to control me through my emotions, I wonder to myself if I could wash their feet. Who has strength such as this? I certainly don't.
Sometimes I try to put myself in their perspective, asking why they must be acting the way they are. What I have found is that hurt begets hurt. When you participate in that, the result is surely the world as you see it today.

reply to post by stupid girl


First of all Stupid girl, my mother is dead. But I can assure you, you and her would have gotten along very well.

The honest truth is that I typically do not read your posts, so I really don't know what all you hammered the OP about.
However, by her reaction to your post, I assumed it was true to your usual lashing-out at whomever is within range of your fist.

That's about what I expected from you. You're closed minded, pre-supposition precedes you.

I can see how hard you are working on that humility in the way assert that you know who are true Christians and who are not. Your meekness is clearly indicated in your bulldog attitude of attacking before taking the time to decipher the comments and the subject and thought process behind the posts.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

I suppose you take this to mean that Jesus advocated dejection.

He humbled Himself to the degree of becoming part of His own creation.

If Jesus truly was a God incarnate, who came to us in human form, to be murdered at the hands of an angry mob, sacrificing himself to himself, so that believers could bypass "judgement day," then I wouldn't call that humility.

He did all this for an incalculable number of reasons, one of them being to set the standard which defines humility.

What have you done that merits humility? What greatness are you hiding from us behind your mask of humility? What wrathful hammer of strength and retribution are you withholding from us behind your meekness?

Sometimes I try to put myself in their perspective, asking why they must be acting the way they are. What I have found is that hurt begets hurt. When you participate in that, the result is surely the world as you see it today.

What a fine example of compassion are you?!? How can you see another's perspective if you don't read their posts, but answer with pseudo psychology and "holier than thou" rhetorical nonsense?

Not all, but many, many Christians are confused by contradictory doctrine, and believe everything they are told by their pastor's interpretations, hook, line and sinker. Without critical thought, many believe that they are victims of this world and must endure humiliations, suffer abuse, and can only wait for their savior to return and physically sweep them away from a reality that they can't endure.

People need to stop playing that movie in their head, and start taking responsibility for their happiness and their future, because there WILL be one!

reply to post by abeverage


I didn't take it in a bad way.
I'll be obnoxious when I wanna be.

reply to post by stupid girl

I didn't intend for this to turn into a whole debate over why I believe what I believe. So I didn't write the OP in a more Christian slant because it stirs more antichristian conflict.
This is more about standing by what one holds as truth in the face of adversity.
After logging off I got into a heated debate with my husband - he hates the internet.
We stumbled over defining humility, he got stuck and twisted it to humiliation.
So I had to clarify my view.
I said 15 yrs ago we walked through the mall and I remember you commenting out loud when you saw an extremely obese person. "How does someone let themselves get that fat" I said how could you say that. You don't know what that person's life is like. It was loud enough for the person to hear. How could you look at another person and judge them like that. He also had difficulties around people with disabilities or deformities. I worked with people with disabilities and felt that over time it helped him see people differently.
He admitted that yes that happened a long time ago and that he's changed and no longer has that reaction about people anymore. So I said "I think you've become more humble.... towards others" We see this when we interact with others and don't feel superior to another person. So to come across someone who is different from yourself - looks, appearances, personality, sexual orientation, race, or religious beliefs and still be able to feel and say " We are all God's children no one of us is better or superior than the other" This gets harder to say when you get slammed just for believing this.
Christians will be prosecuted for their beliefs.

Originally posted by obnoxiouschick
reply to post by abeverage

 

I didn't take it in a bad way.
I'll be obnoxious when I wanna be.

Fine...wanna wrestle?

reply to post by windword

First of all Stupid girl, my mother is dead. But I can assure you, you and her would have gotten along very well

I am truly and genuinely sorry to hear about your mother.

That's about what I expected from you. You're closed minded, pre-supposition precedes you.

I really don't believe that there is anything I can say that would not be offensive to you or that you would not interpret as such.
First of all, I should apologize for trying to be witty in my first post and referring to you as "Windbags".
I intuitively felt like the OP may have thought she was being attacked through the tone of your posts, thus the intention of my first post in this thread was to offer an explanation that your anger was not really towards her. I suppose I was attempting to mediate what I thought might possibly evolve into conflict.
In some deluded way I guess I was trying to "protect" you (....I know, right?....) from having the offensive tone of your posts reciprocated, because of what little I know of you and how you have been treated by close family. Obviously I could have gone about it in a less smartass manner, but smartass-ness is my Achilles heel and I am the poster-child for "work in progress".

I went back and read over my previous two posts from another perspective, as if they were written to me by someone who was irritated with the intention to provoke. Since doing that, I can now see how my words could be perceived with that tone.
I can only give you my word that, that was truly not my intent.
One of the many frustrating things about internet forums is that in addition to not really knowing most of the people you are interacting with, you also cannot see them when you are interacting with them. The tone of their voice, their body language, facial expressions, the feel of a conversation can only be expressed by punctuation and those dumbass emoticons.

Anyway, when reading my second post I tried to read it with a kinda b8tchy, finger-pointing attitude, and I was mortified at how it could possibly sound that way. I would never speak to you that way. I have always made a point to interact with you in a respectful way, not only because that is how we should interact with everyone, but also because I feel like I can closely identify (for many reasons, but this thread is not the time or place to discuss) with what you have shared with me about your family. We will most likely never meet, but I am grieved in my soul over what you have experienced and sense that you continue to work through. But I am also aware of the liklihood that you will turn my genuine compassion away and shove it back at me as if it were shallow pity.

I can see how hard you are working on that humility in the way assert that you know who are true Christians and who are not.

How am I asserting who are "true" Christians and who are not? The only view I have into someone's heart is through their words and actions....that's it. Do not confuse me simply stating benign observation with me passing opinionated judgment.

Your meekness is clearly indicated in your bulldog attitude of attacking before taking the time to decipher the comments and the subject and thought process behind the posts.

The entire point of my posts was because I took the time to decipher the thought processes behind yours.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

I suppose you take this to mean that Jesus advocated dejection.

No.
I take it to mean that He wanted us to know that we would experience it, but working through those times of lowly spirit would refine in us wisdom and patience. Therefore, to keep hope ever before us when we inevitably find ourselves in a spirit of depression.

If Jesus truly was a God incarnate, who came to us in human form, to be murdered at the hands of an angry mob, sacrificing himself to himself, so that believers could bypass "judgement day," then I wouldn't call that humility.

What is your standard of humility? What is humbleness to you?

What have you done that merits humility?

Nothing.

reply to post by windword

What greatness are you hiding from us behind your mask of humility?

Greatness? LOL....I can't even keep up with the laundry. You will find no "greatness" here other than great forgetfulness and great desire for a week-long nap.
I've gotten pretty good at changing diapers on a wiggly baby and asking her other two sisters to find the seemingly always-lost pacifier. But I'm still nowhere near greatness in either one of those particular tasks.

Mask of humility? I strive toward humbleness, many times failing miserably. But it is a perpetual endeavor in which I have much farther to go to consider it acheived. And even then, the perpetuity of my endeavor would not end, but simply transform from acheiving it to maintaining it.

What wrathful hammer of strength and retribution are you withholding from us behind your meekness?

Good gawd.......I'm not Thor. Nor am I always successfully meek. Just ask MagnumOpus. My last T&C spankin' was because I asked him if he was retarded. I also wouldn't consider calling you "Windbags" as the epitome of meekness, either.

What a fine example of compassion are you?!? How can you see another's perspective if you don't read their posts, but answer with pseudo psychology and "holier than thou" rhetorical nonsense?

My reasoning behind why I typically do not spend time reading your posts in threads is because your bitterness tends to make their denigrating tone redundant. I also have no quarrel with you, nor do I seek one, as I feel that you would only see any attempt of mine to interact with you as an opportunity for defensive argument.
I'm not saying that I never browse through them looking for substance you may be offering to the thread, but I can usually tell from your first post if you have your boxing gloves on, so to speak.
If so, then from my perspective, the rest of your posts are peripheral commentary and I typically only read any of your additional, subsequent posts if they are the subject of someone's reply on the thread that grabs my attention.

What are you regarding as pseudo-psychology? As I stated previously, I am only sharing with you my observational perspective. I am sharing statements of my personal perceptions and deductions with you based on information you have shared with me and from what I can intuit from your activity on ATS, nothing more.
I am also wondering what I have said that you are perceiving as "holier than thou" rhetoric?

Not all, but many, many Christians are confused by contradictory doctrine, and believe everything they are told by their pastor's interpretations, hook, line and sinker. Without critical thought, many believe that they are victims of this world and must endure humiliations, suffer abuse, and can only wait for their savior to return and physically sweep them away from a reality that they can't endure.

People need to stop playing that movie in their head, and start taking responsibility for their happiness and their future, because there WILL be one!

I sense that there is more behind this statement than anything really having to do with me. I do not identify myself with these statements, and can't think of any reason I've given you to perceive me as such.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by obnoxiouschick

 

Sometimes loving your enemies is as simple as putting up with their b.s., and instead of tearing their heads of and sh**ing down their throats the way they deserve, pray for the peace and the serenity to ignore the little trolls so they do not provoke you to anger. They do not know what theyre doing, or they wouldn't do it.

I, like you, have struggled with illness all of my life even having 13 major surgeries, having my bowels removed and given an ileostomy permamantly, going through depression, getting arthritis all ontop of the rough life i lived the first 17 years of my life. God sends us storms, so that we can learn to trust in him to get us through them, and so he can teach us how to be at peace with ourselves no matter what comes, even if we die.

The day is coming when we will have to make our stand, do we surrender to a government controlled by Satan or will we stand our ground and remain the salt of the earth? Do we compromise with the Evil One or rise up against him? What means more to us, this world or the kingdom to come? Time is so short, do not lose heart. Our King is coming, i can feel him drawing close. The fear the people feel of this world and this 12-21-12 stuff, they do not understand their dread. It's not the dread of the world ending, they fear His coming and on an instinctual level they know what is coming even if they don't know why. I am not saying he will return then, but it is a beginning. The biggest sign in the heavens since Christ's birth will take place that day, the last time this sign was seen was when Adam walked the earth.

Thank you for your input.
I was thinking that some might not understand what I was asking clarification for.
But see this disease gives me a brain fog. So it's hard to know if the way I write something will be misinterpreted.
I do feel fortunate that I live in this country as I've seen 3rd world poverty first hand. One of my first thoughts on getting back to the US was people really don't appreciate what they have here.
When I said I want to live the way i want to - it was in a day to day aspect.
Things like:
If I wanted my kids vaccinated it should be my choice.
If I wanted fluoride in my water I'll put it there.
I'd like to go to the market and not have to decipher which produce was altered by Monsanto.
I'm talking about how the greed of the people in power effects others in their daily lives.
The generation under 40 doesn't remember the banking crisis with the Savings and Loans in the 80's. They go around making all purchases with a debit card. But I bet their parents remember the banks being closed and that's why they keep cash hidden away.
It just seems that lately there is more building up in this pressure cooker. The balance is shifting where there is more immoral, materialistic, greedy, self serving individuals taking over everything. Then I wonder is it going to get worse?
Then I get centered, meditate. Pray

reply to post by abeverage


watch it i bite

No wrestling, just mental wrestling

reply to post by windword


I defined humility from a dictionary. The very definition is circular.
I'm struggling with the duality.
You choose another term a bit of a harsh one but so be it.
Hypocrisy
Yes in trying to do what I think is right (not just what others tell me to do) there will be times when we are all hypocrites. Has there never been a time in your life when your actions conflicted with your beliefs.
That is the very core of the struggle.
The duality in living life, experiencing what we do yet holding to beliefs.
So yes there have been times that my behavior would be deemed hypocritical. And I've learned lessons for those times I should've followed my beliefs instead of : passing judgement, felt jealous, given into anger, and spoke out in my prideful manner.
So you can keep calling all Christians hypocrites. If that is their truth, then it is their struggle. It means we are all human, we all make mistakes.

reply to post by obnoxiouschick

Thank you for your input.
I was thinking that some might not understand what I was asking clarification for.
But see this disease gives me a brain fog. So it's hard to know if the way I write something will be misinterpreted.
I do feel fortunate that I live in this country as I've seen 3rd world poverty first hand. One of my first thoughts on getting back to the US was people really don't appreciate what they have here.
When I said I want to live the way i want to - it was in a day to day aspect.
Things like:
If I wanted my kids vaccinated it should be my choice.
If I wanted fluoride in my water I'll put it there.
I'd like to go to the market and not have to decipher which produce was altered by Monsanto.
I'm talking about how the greed of the people in power effects others in their daily lives.
The generation under 40 doesn't remember the banking crisis with the Savings and Loans in the 80's. They go around making all purchases with a debit card. But I bet their parents remember the banks being closed and that's why they keep cash hidden away.
It just seems that lately there is more building up in this pressure cooker. The balance is shifting where there is more immoral, materialistic, greedy, self serving individuals taking over everything. Then I wonder is it going to get worse?
Then I get centered, meditate. Pray

You're right, most people under 40 do not remember the bank crisis. I didn't remember it until you said something about it, i'm 33 and i was in my single digits back then, just a little kid. I also rarely use cash anymore, i'm all debit card. We're being geared towards a cashless society, debit and credit cards are just part of the trial to see if the system could run correctly, and gradually over time i see more and more businesses refusing to accept checks and even cash! The day is coming when even paper cash will be worthless and people will throw it in the streets or use it for toilet paper. The greatest illusion to date happened in the 1930's when our government convinced the people paper money has the same value as gold and silver and the gold eagle was outlawed, but if you try to trade your treasury notes in for said gold and silver they will laugh you out the door. If you think people are immoral and greedy now buckle your seatbelt, you haven't seen anything yet but you will soon enough. People are murdered for the 2 dollars in their wallets, a guy that lives down the street from me was shot in the neck visiting a friend of his when his friend's drug deal went bad the dealer kicked the door in and shot him in the neck for no reason and he didn't buy, sell or do drugs himself, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. We have people who have no issue murdering unborn babies, and are now advocating "post birth abortions" to give it a scientific name for good 'ol fashioned murder.

Originally posted by obnoxiouschick
reply to post by abeverage

 

watch it i bite

No wrestling, just mental wrestling

YIKES! a biter! I have heard of mental judo I am not sure how to mental wrestle...OH like wrestling with your conscious!

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
You're right, most people under 40 do not remember the bank crisis. I didn't remember it until you said something about it, i'm 33 and i was in my single digits back then, just a little kid. I also rarely use cash anymore, i'm all debit card. We're being geared towards a cashless society, debit and credit cards are just part of the trial to see if the system could run correctly, and gradually over time i see more and more businesses refusing to accept checks and even cash! The day is coming when even paper cash will be worthless and people will throw it in the streets or use it for toilet paper. The greatest illusion to date happened in the 1930's when our government convinced the people paper money has the same value as gold and silver and the gold eagle was outlawed, but if you try to trade your treasury notes in for said gold and silver they will laugh you out the door. If you think people are immoral and greedy now buckle your seatbelt, you haven't seen anything yet but you will soon enough. People are murdered for the 2 dollars in their wallets, a guy that lives down the street from me was shot in the neck visiting a friend of his when his friend's drug deal went bad the dealer kicked the door in and shot him in the neck for no reason and he didn't buy, sell or do drugs himself, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. We have people who have no issue murdering unborn babies, and are now advicating "post birth abortions" to give it a scientific name for good 'ol fashioned murder.

edit on 27-9-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: attack of the spelling police

I am actually just barely under 40. I only remember it so well because my Dad owned a business and got so screwed by the banks and people owing him money. Sad about the guy getting shot, that's just wrong. And the babies we live in a sick sick world.

reply to post by abeverage

Well I can't see how you could possibly wrestle me any other way. My husband would be a bit bothered by it.

Originally posted by obnoxiouschick
reply to post by abeverage

 

Well I can't see how you could possibly wrestle me any other way. My husband would be a bit bothered by it.

Well wrestle with him then! I don't care! I do like the Phoenix though!