Grand Ayatollah: Jesus An illegitimate Child.. (In The Bible?)

reply to post by tony9802

What I want to know for those of you who might be able to answer the question, where is it written in the Bible that Jesus Christ was born a bastard?

It's not. According to the bible, Jesus was born of the virgin Mary. His was an immaculate conception. That's what makes Jesus different from a prophet. He is the son of God or God incarnate. An angel came to tell Mary that this would happen and told her to call him, Emmanuel (God is with us). She was about to marry Joseph when Joseph found out she was pregnant, him being a good man, married her anyway. This is what is in the bible about Jesus. From what I know about Muslim beliefs, they see Jesus as a prophet and not the son of God.

***
I have a good friend who is a Muslim and they are not all this way. A lot of Muslims have great respect for Jesus and don't agree with the extremists we are so used to seeing on the news.

It's all mythology, and I think it is an excuse for these fanatics. Strip it away and they will still find something to fuel their hatred.

Also, I agree with another poster, we are all legitimate.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by St Udio
that could mean the Virgin Mary had relations without her knowledge with someone else
or had an Immaculate Conception ~which is the Catholic explaination...

Just FYI ... in Catholicism the 'Immaculate Conception' refers to Mary, not Jesus.
Mary being conceived without original sin.
It has nothing at all to do with Jesus being conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Actually, Immaculate Conception in Catholicism has everything to do with the Birth of Jesus Christ, It was Jesus Christ who was conceived free of Original Sin, because he was not the product of a carnal relation between a man and a woman.. He was the product of a Divine prerogative that required a being free of Original Sin (coitus, intercourse) in order to be able to be considered "Holy" "Sacred," and "Divine" or Godly-- otherwise the birth of Jesus Christ would have been considered a regular normal pregnancy and normal birth like any other; like you and me.. Mary as well is considered to be of Grace and Holy but for a series of other reasons, but I think the most important reason is that she was "The Lady Chosen by God," and I suppose he would chose a Lady who would be free of sin, pure of heart, etc..in other words that Lord God would chose a Lady, who wasn't wicked, or bad, good of heart helpful benevolent etc,

Originally posted by kisharninmah
reply to post by tony9802

 

What I want to know for those of you who might be able to answer the question, where is it written in the Bible that Jesus Christ was born a bastard?

It's not. According to the bible, Jesus was born of the virgin Mary. His was an immaculate conception. That's what makes Jesus different from a prophet. He is the son of God or God incarnate. An angel came to tell Mary that this would happen and told her to call him, Emmanuel (God is with us). She was about to marry Joseph when Joseph found out she was pregnant, him being a good man, married her anyway. This is what is in the bible about Jesus. From what I know about Muslim beliefs, they see Jesus as a prophet and not the son of God.

***
I have a good friend who is a Muslim and they are not all this way. A lot of Muslims have great respect for Jesus and don't agree with the extremists we are so used to seeing on the news.

It's all mythology, and I think it is an excuse for these fanatics. Strip it away and they will still find something to fuel their hatred.

Also, I agree with another poster, we are all legitimate.

edit on 26-9-2012 by kisharninmah because: to fix typos

Yes, I agree entirely with the other poster about that as well: WE ARE ALL legitimate children..

However, The Ayatollah stated, unless the news article is another psy-op against Muslim Clerics, the Ayatollah stated that Jews and Christians considered Jesus Christ bastard; an illegitimate Child; You are right, that is not found in the Bible- AT ALL. It is found in the Talmud, where Jews state that Jesus, his full name being Jesus Ben Panthera, that this certain Jesus was not born without a Father, but that rather he was born illegitimately born of a man named Julius Ben Panthera; It is the Jews and their writings by rabbis written in THE TALMUD that state that Jesus was an illegitimate child fathered by Julius Ben Panthera, and Miriam or Mary, a normal Jewish girl living in Judea at that time. Whether scholars or academics like it or not, Rabbi's do indeed state this information; It was stated very long ago, in the years 150-450ad, that is what THEY, the JEWISH RABBIS stated.. Are we calling these Rabbis and the history they are writing in the Talmud a LIE?? That is what the Ayatollah Khorasani is referring to, and he is CORRECT TO DO SO. In any case, I don't know, I thought some of these rabbi fellows were actually there when it all happened, when Christ was born that is.. so the Rabbis wrote it down in their books: NOT as an "immaculate birth", but rather as another standard everyday birth of just another illegitimate child, born out of wedlock, out of engagement;-- So, it is the Judeans and their writings that are causing the conflict of this "bastard" issue-- These early rabbis clearly did not believe that someone just miraculously would be born without having received a biological father's necessary insemination..So to them, Mary or Miriam must have been a floozy who had already slept with someone before marrying Joseph, since she was already pregnant before she and Joseph ever married (She had children afterwards by the way with Joseph, and those children included 3 boys and 2 girls; In the cases of the other children, they would still be considered siblings of Jesus C. so that beomes interesting as well, so long as we can find documentation of those siblings and their wherabouts in some papyrus located somewhere..

One other thing about THE TALMUD; It also states that Mary or Miriam had an additional name which I believe was "Stade" and if I'm not mistaken Stade seems to mean prostitute..Read the Talmud it's all in there.. I can find some links showing more things the Rabbis wrote in the Mishna Gemara better known as the Talmud.

reply to post by FlyersFan

They claim he's a prophet .. lower than Muhammed even ...

You left out the part about muslims acknowledging Jesus as the virgin born messiah

Also, muslims believe all prophets are equal.... but Islams obviously implies that Jesus was more special than any other prophet, as he was born of a virgin and will return to slay the anti-christ.

but they do not acknowledge him as Son of God .. as God Incarnate ... as part of the Christian Holy Trinity (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit).

Even the bible does not describe Jesus as God incarnate.... or teach about the Trinity.... or anything else that Christians believe.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by VforVendettea

 

There is strong evidence that J's father was a roman soldier (Of German decent) called Pantera.

Speculation does not mean "strong evidence".

From your wiki link

The hypothesis is considered extremely unlikely by mainstream scholars, given that there is no evidence to support it.

and also...

A possible connection between the two Panteras has been hypothesized by James Tabor,

Who is this James Tabor? Dude doesn't even have his own wikipedia page.

Your other two links are from websites with an agenda against religion. That does not count as evidence either.

edit on 26-9-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

ACTUALLY, it is not a hypothesis at all, it is written as historical record in The Talmud, by Jewish rabbis and they state on numerous occasions in their Talmud, that Jesus had a father and the name of his father was Ben Panthera; whether professors or academicians or various modern authors like it or not, it is written as legitimate RECORD in Jewish Historical records, and they state time and time again, that Jesus had a father named Juluis Ben Panthera (sorry to repeat that..). It is important because the Talmud and the records written therein are considered bona fide truth by the Jewish community-- This is what they believe!! Finally, what is important about all of this is that it brings up to Ayatollah Khorosani, and the statement he makes against Jewish writings and against the Jewish community, where he validates that The Quran supports as is in accordance with the Sacred birth of Christ, and that muslims believe in the same miracle (The Birth) that Christians believe in. The problem is that Christians do not accept Muhammad.. The Prophet Muhammad who will have arrived later..

Muhammad's daughter Fatima, is also interesting to look at..

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

They claim he's a prophet .. lower than Muhammed even ...

You left out the part about muslims acknowledging Jesus as the virgin born messiah

Also, muslims believe all prophets are equal.... but Islams obviously implies that Jesus was more special than any other prophet, as he was born of a virgin and will return to slay the anti-christ.

but they do not acknowledge him as Son of God .. as God Incarnate ... as part of the Christian Holy Trinity (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit).

Even the bible does not describe Jesus as God incarnate.... or teach about the Trinity.... or anything else that Christians believe.

Right I would agree with you, the Bible does not talk about a Holy Trinity outright, that is a man made construction, if I am not mistaken, and it was developed by philosophers and theologians much later.. Someone said that The Bible does state however, that Jesus C. did call himself God Incarnate, although I've never understood that having been said in Scripture.. I always thought he simply said that he was the Son of God, or simply the Son of Lord God, not that he was Lord God himself, which technically would be blashphemy, I always though Jesus C. was just The Son, and another righteous Prophet.. so I agree with you on those two points,

Originally posted by Jordan River
This is all trickled from the momhaamad the bastard referance from innosence of muslim movie

p.s. no spell check

edit on 25-9-2012 by Jordan River because: (no reason given)

That's a very good point; I only saw the first few minutes of the "Film" but I remember that there was mention and discussion that Muhammad was a Bastard.. I wonder if there is possibly any truth to that.. Do we know who Muhammad's parents were? It seems as though there is some information about his mother, but I am not quite sure what the records might show about his actual biological father..Good point though, because the Ayatollah could very well be making a "mocked" point about that in his comments concerning Jesus Christ being a Bastard;

Originally posted by milkyway12
Oh well. The Bible says mankind will know and bow before Yahweh. That is the whole point of the last 7 years. His wrath is finally unleashed so mankind will know who is truly God. We will see soon enough who is God and who is not god.

He can say anything he wants, i just have a feeling, soon; he will regret some things he has said.

Of course we have being say soon for a while >.< , i just think during my life time, we may just see it. Prophecy is lining up perfectly and to be honest, it weirds me out, but I'm awestruck at the same time. Just maybe, just maybe us humans will be seeing the face of God sooner than we think.

edit on 26-9-2012 by milkyway12 because: (no reason given)

What's really interesting to me is that Jesus Christ when he spoke Aramaic which is the language he spoke during his time, he refers to Yahweh as ALLAHA.. and that is how God is written in Aramaic, virtually identical to the Arabic Allah; Sometimes I just think we're missing some little fragment of paypyri somewhere's and that would link all three of these together in a harmonious and beneficial manner..

Oh no I think we should riot and kill a few people over this.

reply to post by tony9802


Christians do not believe Jesus was a bastard. His conception was immaculate. This is what makes a Christian a Christian, i.e. the belief that Jesus is the son of God. Catholics believe that Mary was also immaculately conceived.

Most Jewish sects don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Christians do. This is how Christianity broke off from Judaism.

There is another Mary (Miriam) in the bible who was a prostitute. This is NOT Jesus' mother Mary.

Dude, I don't know what your intentions are but it seems to me that your sole purpose is to antagonize.

Pick up the bible and READ IT YOURSELF.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

They claim he's a prophet .. lower than Muhammed even ...

You left out the part about muslims acknowledging Jesus as the virgin born messiah

Also, muslims believe all prophets are equal.... but Islams obviously implies that Jesus was more special than any other prophet, as he was born of a virgin and will return to slay the anti-christ.

but they do not acknowledge him as Son of God .. as God Incarnate ... as part of the Christian Holy Trinity (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit).

Even the bible does not describe Jesus as God incarnate.... or teach about the Trinity.... or anything else that Christians believe.

Again you are simply wrong. Christ called Himself "I Am" and if you knew anything enough to even comment on this subjest you would know what that means. The Jews did.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


The Bible does call Christ the Word of God. Hence, why we refer to Him frequently as God the Word. The Trinity is heavily implied but not outright stated. You forget- our scriptures are part of Holy Tradition (an extremely important part), not the entirety of Holy Tradition. The Church existed before our NT scriptures. We aren't Sola Scriptura.

There is one problem I've seen (more educated folks than me discovered it) regarding God as presented in the Quran.

Muslims say that Jesus is the Word of God and Spirit. It says this in the Quran regarding Jesus.

Kalima tu’llah—"The Word of Allah (God)
Ruhun min Allah—"A spirit from Allah (God)."

If so, and to all evidence the Quran does seem to claim this about Jesus, and since they believe that Jesus isn't God, then they have a serious problem. If Christ isn't God, then they believe that God is without word or spirit.

BTW, when Muslim apologists are presented with the above they will have no answer and will go to great lengths to avoid the topic altogether. Sometimes you'll get a long rant about something that has nothing to do with the topic at all and won't make much sense. At least the ones I've encountered on-line were like that.

Even Muslims believe that Jesus was born of a virgin. Muhammad certainly wasn't. They have no concept of why that is an important thing and the implication of it. It is just more evidence that Muhammad was influenced by Christianity but had no understanding of it. Even a lot of professing Christians have this trouble. To me, this is just another reason why Islam was rightly considered a Christian heresy when it first came around.

Acts: 30 And when Philip had run up, he heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “Well, how could I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

Originally posted by tony9802

Originally posted by kisharninmah
reply to post by tony9802

 

What I want to know for those of you who might be able to answer the question, where is it written in the Bible that Jesus Christ was born a bastard?

It's not. According to the bible, Jesus was born of the virgin Mary. His was an immaculate conception. That's what makes Jesus different from a prophet. He is the son of God or God incarnate. An angel came to tell Mary that this would happen and told her to call him, Emmanuel (God is with us). She was about to marry Joseph when Joseph found out she was pregnant, him being a good man, married her anyway. This is what is in the bible about Jesus. From what I know about Muslim beliefs, they see Jesus as a prophet and not the son of God.

***
I have a good friend who is a Muslim and they are not all this way. A lot of Muslims have great respect for Jesus and don't agree with the extremists we are so used to seeing on the news.

It's all mythology, and I think it is an excuse for these fanatics. Strip it away and they will still find something to fuel their hatred.

Also, I agree with another poster, we are all legitimate.

edit on 26-9-2012 by kisharninmah because: to fix typos

Yes, I agree entirely with the other poster about that as well: WE ARE ALL legitimate children..

However, The Ayatollah stated, unless the news article is another psy-op against Muslim Clerics, the Ayatollah stated that Jews and Christians considered Jesus Christ bastard; an illegitimate Child; You are right, that is not found in the Bible- AT ALL......

Its in there. Sure is and you are in here with all certainty, like you know what your on about, spouting error.

Another thing to remember is that jesus wasnt even a legal "bastard" anyway because Joseph took mary as wife before Jesus was born and so Jesus was covered that way by law. None the less the story got out that mary was said to have conceived in her virginity. This story was just to much for them to take even though they knew of the prophecy of a virgin birth. Apparently enough was know to confirm that Joseph wasnt the father buy who evers testimony. So at some point in the prosses of having to deny Jesus as being the Son of God they had to attack his parentage.



""For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou being a man, makest thyself God".....John 10:33.

The area had to do with Christ saying His Father was God thus making Himself God.

Originally posted by kisharninmah
reply to post by tony9802

 

Christians do not believe Jesus was a bastard. His conception was immaculate. This is what makes a Christian a Christian, i.e. the belief that Jesus is the son of God. Catholics believe that Mary was also immaculately conceived.

Most Jewish sects don't believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Christians do. This is how Christianity broke off from Judaism.

There is another Mary (Miriam) in the bible who was a prostitute. This is NOT Jesus' mother Mary.

Dude, I don't know what your intentions are but it seems to me that your sole purpose is to antagonize.

Pick up the bible and READ IT YOURSELF.

edit on 26-9-2012 by kisharninmah because: to fix typos

Not at all, I don't wish to antagonize anyone or antagonize any faith for that matter.. sorry if it might feel that way..My intentions have been entirely sincere, and I simply was unable to understand where The Ayatollah was coming from when he made the "illegitimate child," statement.. I simply thought Islamic Theology would be interesting to explore, since I for one quite frankly generally have a bit of trouble understanding it's logic;

Cheers mate!