Grand Ayatollah: Jesus An illegitimate Child.. (In The Bible?)

Originally posted by tony9802

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by tony9802

Originally posted by Logarock
This guy should learn to read or something.


Jesus was accused of being a bastard. This was certainly a responce to the story about Him being born from a virgin. This is an accusation made to His face in His time. This accusation was recorded by one of His followers as part of a basket of accusations made about Him in attempts to discredit Him. He was accused of a number of things and of being several things.

Perfect, then indeed, Jesus during his time, in the environment where he lived and travelled, was intially accused of being a bastard.....

Nice, nice....very funny. Problem is they dont embrace as it should be embraced. If they did they would see their 'prophet" as a pretender and give full glory to where it is due and understand that "salvation come by the Jews".

I have another little comment I wanted to make about what you state here: Technically, the notion that Jesus Christ is Lord seems a little bit erroneous to me; this notion combined with the idea of The Holy Trinity are constructs of the Roman CC-- these principles are not found in Scripture.. Christ is merely son of God not God himself. So technically when in Islam they argue that The creation of the Trinity and secondly, the notion of attributing Godship to Jesus Christ the Prophet that these two are man made constructs then they are technically correct aren't they? I mean, the RCC created these notions during centuries of theological philosophizing.. at least that's what I see-- I'm not playing devil's advocate in any way, but Islam seems to have points about a couple of things, even though I personally do not accept it as my faith;

This is not correct. The Roman CC has nothing to do with this. John records the controversy was hot and heavy on this very issue....in Jesus time....and it is what finnaly got Jesus nailed to the cross. Its very important and not a side issue that Jesus made it clear and worded it in such a way that he was equal with God being Gods Son and His foes understood His comments as such.

reply to post by Logarock


Okay, I will have to review scripture on this point but I always thought it was the RCC that was responsible for it.. at least they are indeed responsible for the concept of the Holy Trinity; In the meantime, we would technically have to be able to read John's writings in the original Hebrew/Aramaic to make complete sense of what that wording and signification exactly was.. or Greek as well.. This is where these themes and issues are arguable and contestable since we have to be able to understand their meaning and the nuances of those meanings to truly know what was said- And this is where interpretation/translation comes to life this along with Truth..

Thanks for your insight..

reply to post by tony9802


Wait, is he a Muslim insulting a prophet? They consider Isa a prophet. And a "bastard" would be a child who's father is unknown, that isn't the case with Yahshua, His Father is God according to the Bible.

reply to post by benrl


See what you are doing here

as a Christian I don't need to attack every slight against my religion, I think gods big enough to handle himself with out demanding a jihad on every insult by his followers

Now use your first two sentences in context

Nice to see world leaders acting like petulant children... My prophet can kick your saviors butt, etc...

You made a total hypocrite out of yourself.

I'm just pointing this out.

Originally posted by benrl
Nice to see world leaders acting like petulant children...

My prophet can kick your saviors butt, etc...

he can say what ever He wants, as a Christian I don't need to attack every slight against my religion, I think gods big enough to handle himself with out demanding a jihad on every insult by his followers.

I think GOD may even say amen to that...

Originally posted by bowtomonkey
reply to post by benrl

 

See what you are doing here

as a Christian I don't need to attack every slight against my religion, I think gods big enough to handle himself with out demanding a jihad on every insult by his followers

Now use your first two sentences in context

Nice to see world leaders acting like petulant children... My prophet can kick your saviors butt, etc...

You made a total hypocrite out of yourself.

I'm just pointing this out.

First I was being fictitious to illustrate a point,

Second I was directly referencing what actually happened with the world wide Jihad the Ayatollah called for on Salmon Rushdie over his book the Satanic verses which merely made reference to verses that where removed from the Qur'an as historic fact.

since you needed it spelled out for you.

A biblical view on the question?

Personally I think Psalm 69 refers to the youth of Christ:

Save me, O God!

...I am weary with my crying;
My throat is dry;
My eyes fail while I wait for my God.

Those who hate me without a cause
Are more than the hairs of my head;
They are mighty who would destroy me,
Being my enemies wrongfully;
Though I have stolen nothing,
I still must restore it...

Because for Your sake I have borne reproach;
Shame has covered my face.
I have become a stranger to my brothers,
And an alien to my mother’s children;
Because zeal for Your house has eaten me up,
And the reproaches of those who reproach You have fallen on me.

When I wept and chastened my soul with fasting,
That became my reproach.
I also made sackcloth my garment;
I became a byword to them.
Those who sit in the gate speak against me,
And I am the song of the drunkards...

You know my reproach, my shame, and my dishonor;
My adversaries are all before You.
Reproach has broken my heart,
And I am full of heaviness;
I looked for someone to take pity, but there was none;
And for comforters, but I found none.
They also gave me gall for my food,
And for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

Jesus Himself quoted this psalm in reference to His actions in the temple ("zeal for your house has consumed me"), while the final verse is a reference to His suffering on the cross ("they gave me vinegar to drink")...

likewise I think that verse 12, "Those who sit in the gate speak against me / And I am the song of the drunkards." is a reference to His youth in Nazareth.
I think it quite likely that Jesus' own name was a byword for illegitimacy... that the drunkards of Nazareth would have made up songs about him and his "unfaithful mother", who bore him before marriage.


Now, obviously this doesn't address the question as to whether or not Jesus was illegitimate. Luke 1:35 says (this is the angel Gabriel speaking to Mary), "“The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.". This makes it clear that the act of conception was in itself miraculous - that Christ was born of a woman, yes, but also begotten by God (begotten in the sense that Christ was 'born' in the flesh, but this was not the point of His origin, only the point of His physical conception; He existed prior to this point (cf. Colossians 1)).

So in physical terms... in the eyes of the people around Him, yes, Jesus would have been considered illegitimate. This is why Matthew tells us that Joseph "had it in mind to put Mary away quietly" (divorce her)... but Gabriel likewise told Joseph that "the child within her is of The Holy Spirit".

Gabriel revealed to Joseph and to Mary what human eyes could not see; that what man viewed as illegitimate, God viewed as glorious. This is not atypical in the Bible. We're told that "God uses the weak things of the world to shame the wise", and this is simply another picture of that. Likewise "the cross of Christ is foolishness to those who are perishing".

As one final reference, one of the key passages regarding Christ's birth is Isaiah 9. We're told there:

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.

He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.

The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

My personal belief is that this reference, "The Zeal of the Lord Almighty", is a veiled reference to the Holy Spirit, through whom Mary conceived, and through whom each of these things was (and yet will be, in terms of verse 7) accomplished.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by tony9802

 

Wait, is he a Muslim insulting a prophet? They consider Isa a prophet. And a "bastard" would be a child who's father is unknown, that isn't the case with Yahshua, His Father is God according to the Bible.

No he isn't insulting the prophet he is saying that the Jews and Christians do.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by tony9802

 

Wait, is he a Muslim insulting a prophet? They consider Isa a prophet. And a "bastard" would be a child who's father is unknown, that isn't the case with Yahshua, His Father is God according to the Bible.

...this, then, is the problem.
In Islam, "He is Allah, the One.... He begetteth not nor was begotten....".
So, given that the god of Islam has no son, Jesus must then be considered to be illegitimate, logically... despite his miraculous birth.

About.Islam.com has this to say:

Muslims believe that Jesus (called 'Isa in Arabic) was the son of Mary, and was conceived without the intervention of a human father. The Qur'an describes that an angel appeared to Mary, to announce to her the "gift of a holy son" (19:19). She was astonished at the news, and asked: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?" (19:20). When the angel explained to her that she had been chosen for the service of God, and that God had ordained the matter, she devoutly submitted herself to His will.

In the Qur'an and other Islamic sources, there is no mention of Joseph the carpenter, nor any recollection of the inn and manger legend. On the contrary, the Qur'an describes that Mary retreated from her people (outside the city), and gave birth to Jesus underneath a remote date palm tree. The tree miraculously provided nourishment for her during labor and birth. (See Chapter 19 of the Qur'an for the entire story. The chapter has aptly been named "The Chapter of Mary.")

However, the Qur'an repeatedly reminds us that Adam, the first human being, was born with neither a human mother nor a human father. Therefore, Jesus' miraculous birth affords him no higher standing or presumed partnership with God. When God ordains a matter, He merely says, "Be" and it is so. "The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be!" And he was" (3:59). In Islam, Jesus is regarded as a human prophet and messenger of God, not part of God Himself.

source: about.islam.com

Wow muslims really showing their true colors as of late. It seems the ME is steeped in negativity and hate for anything that is not of Islam. It really is childish that all this was kicked off by some low budget movie that any half logical person would have shrugged off as vulgar drivel.

Originally posted by truthermantwo
Jesus is our savior, I hear his literal voice call to me. He has authority over our destinations. It would be better to convert Islam/muslims to Christ the Lord rather than see them perish because they could not enter the Kingdom. Christians, lets find a way to show our brothers and sisters that Christ is truly the Son of God, even before he came to earth. Or maybe this will be enough evidence.

kid comes back after seeing angels and Jesus

little girl has vision of christ returning in the clouds

boy receives message from christ/God and prays in tongues

Jesus appeared to muslims and they convert

Why is there a need to convert Muslims? You do know that in the Muslim version of the end of times Jesus will return and lead the Muslims and some Christians against the anti Christ.

reply to post by tony9802

“Hey, clueless pope who has chosen silence (on the Muhammad video), answer this: If there was no Quran, then as the Bible and the Torah have it, Jesus the son of Miriam is a bastard and a bastard will be forbidden from the heavens of God, and so the high place of Jesus is due to the existence of the Prophet Muhammad as the last prophet by God,”

Something for people to think about...
Islam is the ONLY religion that confirms Jesus as messiah. Thanks to Islam, we now have more than a billion people who have accepted Jesus as messiah... and no, you cant claim to be a muslim if you reject Jesus.

Without Islam, Christianity would be alone in its claim about Jesus' status as messiah. No reason to take Jesus seriously. He would be to Christianity what Krishna is to the Hindus.

The jews completely reject Jesus.
The christians accept the Old Testament prophets but reject Mohammad.
The muslims accept both the Old Testament prophets and Jesus.

Islam confirms the religious figures of Judaism and Christianity... yet is seen as the enemy of christianity.

Originally posted by tony9802
reply to post by Logarock

 

Okay, I will have to review scripture on this point but I always thought it was the RCC that was responsible for it.. at least they are indeed responsible for the concept of the Holy Trinity; In the meantime, we would technically have to be able to read John's writings in the original Hebrew/Aramaic to make complete sense of what that wording and signification exactly was.. or Greek as well.. This is where these themes and issues are arguable and contestable since we have to be able to understand their meaning and the nuances of those meanings to truly know what was said- And this is where interpretation/translation comes to life this along with Truth..

Thanks for your insight..

edit on 25-9-2012 by tony9802 because: (no reason given)

Well the idea of the trinity is not addressed in the area I mentioned.

As far as the greek and the like, Johns writing is so simple here that an english translation is well reliable for an acurate translation without to much scoping around for added meaning in nuance in the words. Some make a great deal out of nuance and it is to be considered and can bring clearity but here in John we can see the dialog is clear and not to be misunderstood easliy.

Now what does bring light to nuance here is knowing contex, as simple as that sounds, to this area and its related prophecies, the history and mind sets touched on. For example....."I say to you before Abraham was I am" a comment that all most got Him killed on the spot. It was a clear Christ was saying that He was indeed not only preexistant but in fact one in the same that spoke to Moses. The jews there understood clearly what He was talking about and what He was saying about himself.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by tony9802

 

“Hey, clueless pope who has chosen silence (on the Muhammad video), answer this: If there was no Quran, then as the Bible and the Torah have it, Jesus the son of Miriam is a bastard and a bastard will be forbidden from the heavens of God, and so the high place of Jesus is due to the existence of the Prophet Muhammad as the last prophet by God,”

Something for people to think about...
Islam is the ONLY religion that confirms Jesus as messiah. Thanks to Islam, we now have more than a billion people who have accepted Jesus as messiah... and no, you cant claim to be a muslim if you reject Jesus.

Without Islam, Christianity would be alone in its claim about Jesus' status as messiah. No reason to take Jesus seriously. He would be to Christianity what Krishna is to the Hindus.

The jews completely reject Jesus.
The christians accept the Old Testament prophets but reject Mohammad.
The muslims accept both the Old Testament prophets and Jesus.

Islam confirms the religious figures of Judaism and Christianity... yet is seen as the enemy of christianity.

WOW! What a bunch of babble. So christianity needs affirmation outside of itself. No reason to take it seriously or Jesus seriously. lol Jesus was confirmed by the prophets.......before He was ever born and thats all the confirmation the world needs. Jesus fullfilled these prophets of truth years after they wrote. Had God wanted any affirmation from mohammad then mohammad would have been before Jesus.

And no Islam does not accept the Old testament prophets or they would embrace the return of the Jews to Jerusalem and much more. More importantly they would reject mohammad and take on the Jew Christ. (gnash those teeth boys, gnash them.....come on yer no daisy)

Originally posted by buster2010

Originally posted by truthermantwo
Jesus is our savior, I hear his literal voice call to me. He has authority over our destinations. It would be better to convert Islam/muslims to Christ the Lord rather than see them perish because they could not enter the Kingdom. Christians, lets find a way to show our brothers and sisters that Christ is truly the Son of God, even before he came to earth. Or maybe this will be enough evidence.

kid comes back after seeing angels and Jesus

little girl has vision of christ returning in the clouds

boy receives message from christ/God and prays in tongues

Jesus appeared to muslims and they convert

Why is there a need to convert Muslims? You do know that in the Muslim version of the end of times Jesus will return and lead the Muslims and some Christians against the anti Christ.

What a load of pure camel ga ga. God told Ezekiel to cook with it, not to eat any of it.

reply to post by tony9802


Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually..

For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood..

By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Hebrews7

Originally posted by Awen24

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by tony9802

 

Wait, is he a Muslim insulting a prophet? They consider Isa a prophet. And a "bastard" would be a child who's father is unknown, that isn't the case with Yahshua, His Father is God according to the Bible.

...this, then, is the problem.
In Islam, "He is Allah, the One.... He begetteth not nor was begotten....".
So, given that the god of Islam has no son, Jesus must then be considered to be illegitimate, logically... despite his miraculous birth.

About.Islam.com has this to say:

Muslims believe that Jesus (called 'Isa in Arabic) was the son of Mary, and was conceived without the intervention of a human father. The Qur'an describes that an angel appeared to Mary, to announce to her the "gift of a holy son" (19:19). She was astonished at the news, and asked: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?" (19:20). When the angel explained to her that she had been chosen for the service of God, and that God had ordained the matter, she devoutly submitted herself to His will.

In the Qur'an and other Islamic sources, there is no mention of Joseph the carpenter, nor any recollection of the inn and manger legend. On the contrary, the Qur'an describes that Mary retreated from her people (outside the city), and gave birth to Jesus underneath a remote date palm tree. The tree miraculously provided nourishment for her during labor and birth. (See Chapter 19 of the Qur'an for the entire story. The chapter has aptly been named "The Chapter of Mary.")

However, the Qur'an repeatedly reminds us that Adam, the first human being, was born with neither a human mother nor a human father. Therefore, Jesus' miraculous birth affords him no higher standing or presumed partnership with God. When God ordains a matter, He merely says, "Be" and it is so. "The similitude of Jesus before God is as that of Adam. He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be!" And he was" (3:59). In Islam, Jesus is regarded as a human prophet and messenger of God, not part of God Himself.

source: about.islam.com

Oh wow! And all of the above was plagiarized form Christain manuscripts and traditions. The story here was first told by those that were with jesus. Who needs this after the fact as if it were gained first hand or by revelation.....which it wasnt, it was plagiarized.

As well Jesus was called the second Adam and for several reasons......but hear the Islamist engage in evil speach against the truth. You see Islam must knock Jesus down a few pegs so thier guy looks biger. lol

reply to post by Logarock

So christianity needs affirmation outside of itself. No reason to take it seriously or Jesus seriously.

The fact that another religion confirms Jesus as messiah, is a good reason to take Jesus seriously. Without Islam, Jesus can be dismissed as just another religious leader... exclusive to just one religion.

Jesus was confirmed by the prophets.......before He was ever born and thats all the confirmation the world needs. Jesus fullfilled these prophets of truth year after the wrote.

Not sure the jews, whos scriptures Christians hijacked, accept that.

Had God wanted any affirmation from mohammad then mohammad would have been before Jesus.

That makes absolutely no sense.

And no Islam does not accept the Old testament prophets

Going by the Koran, they do.

reply to post by Logarock

You see Islam must knock Jesus down a few pegs so thier guy looks biger. lol

If Islam wanted to make "their guy" bigger, it would have just denied Jesus as the messiah and established Mohammad as the messiah. Instead, Islam confirms Jesus as the messiah.

reply to post by tony9802


There is strong evidence that J's father was a roman soldier (Of German decent) called Pantera.
en.wikipedia.org...
rationalwiki.org...(mother_of_Jesus)
rationalwiki.org...

(I did hear a tale once about a boy girl swim party where one of the girls wound up pregnant due to the water being just the right temperature and condition and one of the boys being close enough and exited enough and the doctor discovered that the mother to be was still technically untouched and a judge ruled that the 'pool' was the father of the baby. However that would not have happened 2000 years ago)