Vacuum to antimatter-rocket

reply to post by Kashai

The vacuum is thus not devoid of matter or energy as classical physics would have us believe, but is instead a rich arena of quantum activity

I see no mention of virtual particles or reality. I see them saying they are there, but hidden, and can be coaxed out. Regardless I do not see any maths you referred to earlier.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


It would take less energy to obtain the fuel than the fuel would produce, that is the point. It's all theoretical at this point though. One of those it "should" work, but has never been tested.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


Guys, I am way past my bedtime and only because I find this subject fascinating The truth is (IMO) we are talking about using, literally, "Dark Energy" to power a spacecraft now in the 21st century.

That is incredible, under the circumstances....

See you all tomorrow

Originally posted by Kashai
reply to post by ChaoticOrder

 

Suggesting the particles do not exist is incorrect, they do exist and the problem to continue there existence is a temporal one. One way of looking at it is that they escape our concept of reality, which per say has nothing to do with reality as a whole.

No they don't time travel, they don't disappear into another dimension, they don't hide under your bed, they disappear after the virtual particle pair annihilate each other. Suggesting the particles continue to exist via any of those theories is incorrect.

The truth is (IMO) we are talking about using, literally, "Dark Energy"

No dark energy is a completely different thing.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


So the question I have is how much energy will it take to coax them out? What ratio of energy use to energy output is produced.?

Is it possible to have a turbo?

It would take less energy to obtain the fuel than the fuel would produce, that is the point.

What you need to keep in mind is that I'm talking about the true amount of energy contained in any fuel, in terms of e=mc2. If we do get more out than in, in terms of pure energy, then we clearly have an over-unity device. But I think you understand my basic point.. the fuel you get out may not be more more in terms of pure energy, but in terms of usable energy the anti-matter output is much more efficient.

It's all theoretical at this point though. One of those it "should" work, but has never been tested.

It's not really theoretical any more because photons have been exacted from the quantum vacuum (see this thread). Many important theories are also based on the idea that virtual particles can become real if they are put in a position where they can't annihilate, such as the theory of Hawking Radiation which explains how black holes can emit radiation.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder

It would take less energy to obtain the fuel than the fuel would produce, that is the point.

What you need to keep in mind is that I'm talking about the true amount of energy contained in any fuel, in terms of e=mc2. If we do get more out than in, in terms of pure energy, then we clearly have an over-unity device. But I think you understand my basic point.. the fuel you get out may not be more more in terms of pure energy, but in terms of usable energy the anti-matter output is much more efficient.

As I already explained that is 100% not the case. Not unless you consider your car an overunity device. All this is doing is harnessing energy that ALREADY exists. Just like oil already exists, but has to be harnessed.

It is not creating energy out of nothing. The energy is already there, it exists, it simply has to be harnessed.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


Than that is obviously where we disagree. The anti-matter particles (the fuel) do not already exist. I have already explained the process of vacuum turbulence and why it happens and how it results in virtual particles. Unless you specifically implement a method which forces those virtual particles to become real they will not continue to exist after they annihilate. I am not making this up off the top of my head ok, I am talking about established scientific theories based on evidence and observation which describe how this works.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


And I quoted you the actual scientist from the link saying it DOES exist. Why are you right and the scientist in the article is wrong?

Originally posted by magma
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

So the question I have is how much energy will it take to coax them out? What ratio of energy use to energy output is produced.?

Is it possible to have a turbo?

That is way out of my league, and they would have to create the FEL to do it and see. At this point it's theoretical. We have not been outside of known space, so there is no way to prove all space has this vacuum energy, all we know is that all space we have tested has it.

We do know a FEL (free electron laser) can run off nuclear energy, so I imagine other forms of energy could kick-start the process as well.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04


Are you talking about the quote which said "The vacuum is thus not devoid of matter or energy as classical physics would have us believe, but is instead a rich arena of quantum activity"?

You are simply misinterpreting what that quote means. A "rich arena of quantum activity" is a description of space-time turbulence. They are saying the vacuum is not really as empty as we thought it was, because energy is constantly appearing and disappearing (in the form of virtual particles). They don't mention anything about virtual particles on that quote because it's like an extremely simple description of vacuum fluctuation. If you really don't believe what I've said then research it yourself and learn how virtual particles work. I'm not going to make you believe anything, I don't have time to dig up all the information and data to prove this to you.

Originally posted by MeesterB
That was a good read.
Checked out the actual paper and it makes sense.
the sail will have to be 45 km x 45 km assuming our current laser tech. That's pretty damn big, but I don't see why it can't be done. Plus, technology always gets better right?
The actual thrust comes from the Pions formed from the annihilation of the protons and antiprotons it seems. They propose using superconducing magnets for the nozzle and they mention that some of the pions go upstream of the intended thrust.
Seems radiation shielding will also be a must because
"Due to the short lifetime of the neutral pion created in the
matter-antimatter annihilation, it only moves 60 nanometers
before decaying into 200 MeV gamma rays"
Wouldn't want to be bombarded with those I think.

The math is tasty, but I don't have the drive right now to see where they got the equations so I'll just assume they work and take it with a grain of salt.

This is quantum physics at work, and I like it.

edit on 9/24/2012 by MeesterB because: clarification

Do you agree with ChaoticOrder's assessment that this thing could have over unity effects?

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


Read what I said at the bottom of the 1st page.

I think the VARIES method of acquiring antimatter via lasers is a good concept. But I think the antimatter then is wasted, by using it as a 'rocket' propellant. In the end... "the ship would accelerate to a fraction of the speed of light."

I think they should use antimatter in a reactor, as power to create the NASA space warp-bubble, for 'faster-than-light' travel - described in this thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
...which is also created from quantum foam, using lasers.

Perhaps... combine the laser functions between the two processes, and acheive 10x light-speed, and harvest free antimatter for the ship's power?

They are describing a Zero- point generator. By using a strong vacuum, normal space is bent. This warping causes particles to basically slow down. At that point you would need a spark to release that latent energy. The potential output is infinity. Also note that outer space provides one of the strongest vacuums known. A craft with an electrified skin could theoretically harness unlimited free energy.

your computer is more than likely being powered by coal.

and you're talking about anti-matter powered space crafts.

humanity is so messed in priorities, the galaxy is pissing itself laughing.

You should be required to read the entire paper before reponding/posting.

richardobousyconsulting.com...

Kinda goes without saying, but yeah.

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


Not really. It will require a massive amount of energy to sustain the laser and the magnetic nozzle, so I don't really see it as "free energy"
Edit: and it's not like the energy created from the matter/antimatter collision will fuel the laser and provide thrust. If that was the case then it would have a case for overunity, but as such it requires energy from a star.

No more than using solar panels to charge your iphone is free energy. This just happens to be a really ingenious way to produce thrust for a spacecraft.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


Actually it is proposed as an explantion for dark enrgy.

reply to post by randomname


This is not just about exploring space or finding life, there is an abundance of recourses that would be available to mankind under such circumstances.

If the means were accomplished to bring these recourses to earth, potentially every adult human on the planet could have a job.

Which for the record is one rather serious problem today.

Such an abundance also offers the idea of making much more effcient filters, designed with precious metals like gold. Because of how soft it is, particulates sent though it at high pressure, would end up imbeded in the metal.

Designed correctly particles as in pollution need never leave a smoke stack. in a factory for example.


Any thoughts?