American High School Band Marches with Hammer & Sickle

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posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 03:16 AM
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reply to post by ANOK
 


You do not seem to comprehend that the examples you posted are indicative of root problem with communism and socialism. You keep trying to post examples of how (fillin the blank) is innocent. “It was the bad people taking advantage of the situation.”

Your examples, are examples of what is wrong with your ideologies.

The root problem with communism and socialism is you give too much control of your life over to other people. Be it leaders you have elected, or people that appoint themselves to that roll. To organize those systems, you have to have people that are given the power to choose what people can and can’t do, and what each group has to do. That type of power over people attract people that will abuse that power. You may have a benevolent leader class at first. But as those grow old and die off, the new generation will take over. The ones that have the highest tendency to abuse that power will generally try to gain that power over other people.

That is why I have stated in other forums and on this forum that socialism is an unstable construct. It naturally leads to lop sided results, and fracturing of the economy, products, and workforce. That fracturing naturally leads to an attempt to fix it through centralized planning which slowly changes the layout from a socialist one over to a communist layout. With communism comes a person that will eventually gain power over the entire country and do that damage that he has always done.

Socialism is an enabler of communism, which is an enabler of dictatorships.

Through out history, societies that embark on that ladder will always ascend to the inevitable result.

When you start trusting the community/group/state to run people’s lives more than the people themselves, then that is the first step down that road. When you cede power to the community/group/state, as history has always shown, they will abuse that power.
edit on 25-9-2012 by Mr Tranny because: (no reason given)




posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 03:38 AM
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Originally posted by Mr Tranny
reply to post by ANOK
 


The root problem with communism and socialism is you give too much control of your life over to other people.


Sorry but that is completely untrue, in fact it is the opposite of that.

Socialism is the workers ownership of the means of production. Capitalism controls your life from birth to death. Everything is set up for capitalist interest. You existence is simply to make profit for someone else.

You're still under the illusion that what happened in the USSR etc., was what socialism is. It isn't, there was no socialism in the USSR. The Bolsheviks didn't want socialism, they wanted power and control. They used socialism to gain power, not because they supported worker ownership. Easy to understand if you understand the history.


Conversely, what prevailed in the USSR were state capitalist enterprises alongside a marginal social role for private capitalist enterprises. Soviet industry was mostly organized as state-owned enterprises where state officials received the surpluses produced by wage laborers. In agriculture, significant numbers of private capitalist enterprises were sometimes allowed; in the USSR’s ‘second or underground economy’ private capitalists also existed, albeit illegally.


State Capitalism versus Communism: What Happened in the USSR and the PRC?

The important thing is what happens to 'surplus value'. Surplus value is what is produced by the worker over what they are paid for. It is what the private owners takes as profit in capitalism, and the state officials under state-capitalism. Under socialism the worker retains all of his production, there is no surplus value, they earn the full fruits of their labour.

The USSR's economy was state-capitalism, private ownership by a self imposed government. No better than capitalism as the workers are still exploited.

Sorry for the large quote but this explains it well...


The crucial point is that the cost of wages or labor-power depends on factors completely independent of the actual value produced by workers during the labor process. This difference is the source of "surplus value," or profit. So let's compare the price of labor-power to the value, expressed in price, of the commodities that workers creates through their labor.

To take a simple example, let's assume that a worker is able to produce in four hours new value that is equivalent to the value of their labor-power for the day--to, say, $100 in wages. Marx called this "necessary labor," because it is the amount of labor required to replace the wages paid by the capitalist, and because if the worker labored independently and not for a capitalist, it would be "necessary" for them to work four hours to maintain their standard of living.

If it was a matter of "a fair day's pay for a fair day's work," workers ought to be able to go home after four hours of labor. In our example, the capitalist is paying them $100 for the workday, and the worker produced $100 worth of new value in the form of products that belong to the capitalist, which they can sell on the market to recoup what they spent on wages and other costs of production.

But things don't work this way under capitalism. As Marx wrote in a pamphlet called Value, Price and Profit, "By buying the daily or weekly value of the laboring power of the [worker], the capitalist has, therefore, acquired the right to use or make that laboring power during the whole day or week."

Hence, the worker, in order to receive a wage equivalent to the value they produce in four hours, is forced by the capitalist to work longer--a total of, in our example, eight hours. The value created during the additional four hours, embodied in the products produced by the worker during that time, is what Marx called "surplus value."


What do we mean by exploitation?

edit on 9/25/2012 by ANOK because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 04:38 AM
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reply to post by Signals
 


It was their high school theme.. Nothing more, nothing less. You can find alternative meanings for anything in life if you try hard enough and lack the common sense to understand the point... Its people like you that scaremonger.

A hammer and a sickle? So effing what? You have missed the point and posting pictures in your thread that slanders your own government... Not very patriotic for someone who is trying so hard.

The moral of the story: grow up and post something interesting.. Don't nit pick on the school kids when there is something way worse afoot.

Have a nice day



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 04:46 AM
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Originally posted by ANOK
The important thing is what happens to 'surplus value'. Surplus value is what is produced by the worker over what they are paid for. It is what the private owners takes as profit in capitalism, and the state officials under state-capitalism. Under socialism the worker retains all of his production, there is no surplus value, they earn the full fruits of their labour.

The USSR's economy was state-capitalism, private ownership by a self imposed government. No better than capitalism as the workers are still exploited.

Sorry for the large quote but this explains it well...


You again are standing right on the answer, but you can’t see it.
Here is where socialism is unstable construct, and naturally leads to communism.

Fist problem. What about the people can’t produce anything? The disabled? The young with no parents? The elderly? The government worker that oversees the whole operation?

Second problem. The world isn’t static. Old things fade out, new things come in. And when times change, who will make the central decisions to take this course or that one? When you try to rule by large committee, you end up with such stupid outcomes that it quickly becomes apparent that planning has to be condensed to a few people to gain a coherent goal..

That is where it transitions over to communism. You have to have a certain amount taken off the top to support those things. How do you make sure that everyone contributes? The state has to own the means of production to make sure that everyone contributes their “fair share”. People that are more productive have to give a larger share.

You also have to have state owned factories so the state can decide what new factories are going to be built to build new products. And which should be tore down. And which factories should build how much product.

All in all, socialism naturally evolves into a centralized control and ownership. State ownership, state control.

Now that you have people to overlook everything. Are those people going to try to influence the system to give themselves more power? The tragedy of the weak will require them regulating another part of your life. On and on until we arrive at the final result. Where You, yourself, become the problem. The “benevolent leader” is forced to remove you (and a lot of other people) from existence for the good of the whole.

But you should be happy. For he is worries about the greater good. Your death will not be in vain. It will help form a more perfect society.


It is pathetic that you are standing in the forest but you can’t see anything for the trees.
You want to believe so much that a perfect socialist world living in harmony can exist, that you can’t see where that very world falls apart..
You are so obsessed with all the individual components to the puzzle but you can not comprehend how they all work together as a whole.

Heck, Marx himself (The one you like quoting material from) stated that socialism will naturally lead to communism. It isn’t a secret.



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 04:54 AM
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reply to post by freee
 


Some things have such a fixed meaning in the modern world that the meaning can not be ignored.

If the school band came out in long white robes with pointy hats carrying a flaming cross, would you say they are not trying to imply anything? Surly you would say they are just un-dyed robes and a couple sticks nailed together that are burning. There would be absolutely no symbolism there right?

You know better than that.



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 07:03 AM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

Click here for more information.



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 07:39 AM
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It's not much better than marching with an American flag. Look at all the evil things the US has done/does on a daily basis. All the evil things capitalism did/does on a daily basis.

edit on 25-9-2012 by RealSpoke because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 11:06 AM
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Originally posted by Signals
reply to post by HostileApostle
 


Demonize? Have you lost your mind?

Have you any idea what suffering and death the Russian Revolution caused?

Maybe we should commemorate Hitler's rise to power in a high school in Ohio next?

After all, we wouldn't want to be intolerant to any other people or culture, right?



If you were English the same could be said for the American Revolution...



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by Signals
reply to post by HostileApostle
 


Demonize? Have you lost your mind?

Have you any idea what suffering and death the Russian Revolution caused?

Maybe we should commemorate Hitler's rise to power in a high school in Ohio next?

After all, we wouldn't want to be intolerant to any other people or culture, right?



They should do STALIN next then Hitler...............



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 02:06 PM
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reply to post by Druscilla
 


That's a very good point.. they are very nice people..



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 02:10 PM
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Originally posted by Druscilla

I don't see anything wrong with this at all.

Is there a problem with the old Soviet hammer and Sickle?

I further don't see anything wrong with Communism/Socialism if the principals behind them are practiced soundly without abuse.

Nothing wrong with some Communism/Socialism.
How many of you have ex-Soviet Russian friends? If you don't have any, or know any, and you happen to run into some former Soviets, you'll find they some of the most wonderfully educated outstanding people.


The Soviet Union murdered and imprisoned and worked to death millions of people. Like the Nazis, they should not be celebrated.



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 02:15 PM
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Originally posted by abeverage

Originally posted by Signals
reply to post by HostileApostle
 


Demonize? Have you lost your mind?

Have you any idea what suffering and death the Russian Revolution caused?

Maybe we should commemorate Hitler's rise to power in a high school in Ohio next?

After all, we wouldn't want to be intolerant to any other people or culture, right?



If you were English the same could be said for the American Revolution...


What? You do realize that most of the people Stalin murdered were his own citizens? The Gulag system? Forced starvation of the Ukraine? Genocide against the Kulacks?

Bohz Moi!



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 02:25 PM
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Originally posted by NavyDoc

Originally posted by abeverage

Originally posted by Signals
reply to post by HostileApostle
 


Demonize? Have you lost your mind?

Have you any idea what suffering and death the Russian Revolution caused?

Maybe we should commemorate Hitler's rise to power in a high school in Ohio next?

After all, we wouldn't want to be intolerant to any other people or culture, right?



If you were English the same could be said for the American Revolution...


What? You do realize that most of the people Stalin murdered were his own citizens? The Gulag system? Forced starvation of the Ukraine? Genocide against the Kulacks?

Bohz Moi!


No I didn't so I stand corrected.



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 02:25 PM
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reply to post by Signals
 




I absolutely LOVE the fact that you are in the minority and most people disagree with you.
This school can do whatever they please and The Hammer and Sickle is what they please.


Good for them








Pretty interesting overview, if you can be bothered.

edit on 25/9/12 by blupblup because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 02:26 PM
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reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Take a tour of the American prison system, and make sure you ask to visit their onsite grave yard each time.

The story behind nation's largest prison graveyard

Every year, some 100 inmates who die in the Texas prison system are buried at Captain Joe Byrd Cemetery outside Huntsville, the nation’s largest prison graveyard, according to the New York Times’ Manny Fernandez, who visited the 22-acre cemetery.


Prisons in the United States are work farms.
Inmates aggregate and plow fields by hand. They work on highways. They work, and they don't have a choice in the matter.

The Pentagon and Slave Labor in US Prisons

How US Prisons pad corporate profits at tax payer expense

The Prison Industry in the United States: Big Business or a New Form of Slavery?

Ahh, but, it's okay if it happens in the United States because it's Amerka (eff Yeah!) and these are scumbag criminals.

Besides, what's a little corporate profit from all these scumbags anyway?

Also, don't forget that America had ACTUAL slavery for a long time too.

edit on 25-9-2012 by Druscilla because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by Druscilla
reply to post by NavyDoc
 


Take a tour of the American prison system, and make sure you ask to visit their onsite grave yard each time.

The story behind nation's largest prison graveyard

Every year, some 100 inmates who die in the Texas prison system are buried at Captain Joe Byrd Cemetery outside Huntsville, the nation’s largest prison graveyard, according to the New York Times’ Manny Fernandez, who visited the 22-acre cemetery.


Prisons in the United States are work farms.
Inmates aggregate and plow fields by hand. They work on highways. They work, and they don't have a choice in the matter.

The Pentagon and Slave Labor in US Prisons

How US Prisons pad corporate profits at tax payer expense

The Prison Industry in the United States: Big Business or a New Form of Slavery?

Ahh, but, it's okay if it happens in the United States because it's Amerka (eff Yeah!) and these are scumbag criminals.

Besides, what's a little corporate profit from all these scumbags anyway?




So you equate someone going to prison for rape or murder the same as going to a death camp because of his political views, the books he read, or if Stalin just didn't like him? Equating the deaths of a few hundred criminals to millions of innocent civilians?

What do you think about the Nazi death camps? By your reasoning Hitler should be given a pass as well?

Yes we did have slavery but we ended it and it is no longer celebrated today, Would you have a problem with the schools doing a display that glorified slave-owners in the south, or would you find it distasteful?
edit on 25-9-2012 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 02:49 PM
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The things that happened under the hammer and sickle literally make hitler look like ghandi.



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by NavyDoc

So you equate someone going to prison for rape or murder the same as going to a death camp because of his political views, the books he read, or if Stalin just didn't like him? Equating the deaths of a few hundred criminals to millions of innocent civilians?

What do you think about the Nazi death camps? By your reasoning Hitler should be given a pass as well?

Yes we did have slavery but we ended it and it is no longer celebrated today, Would you have a problem with the schools doing a display that glorified slave-owners in the south, or would you find it distasteful?
edit on 25-9-2012 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)


I equate all human abuse and exploitation as WRONG.
The United States of America is just as culpable as any other nation you desire to cite for abuse of its citizens.

Poor St. Louis Minorities Targeted for Secret War Chemical Testing

I've already mentioned Tuskeegee.

Let's not forget slavery in America which it seems NOONE wants to acknowledge.

Slavery in Russia existed on the territory of Russia since the times of the Kievan Rus, and was abolished in 1723, when Peter the Great converted the household slaves into house serfs.

source

And then there's that whole GENOCIDE of the Native American peoples thing.
Population history of indigenous peoples in Americas


One of the most contentious issues relating to disease depopulation in the Americas concerns the degree to which Europeans deliberately infected indigenous peoples with diseases such as smallpox.


Ahh, but, it's okay to wipe out entire cultures, and to have OWNED slaves because those are some of the things that helped to make America GREAT, right? Besides that, there were some lip service apologies where the Native Americans got a few acres of reservations to go get drunk on, and those black people got to vote eventually so, it's all fine and okay now right?



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by Druscilla


I equate all human abuse and exploitation as WRONG.



Yet you posted this on the 1st page




I don't see anything wrong with this at all. Is there a problem with the old Soviet hammer and Sickle? I further don't see anything wrong with Communism/Socialism if the principals behind them are practiced soundly without abuse. Nothing wrong with some Communism/Socialism. How many of you have ex-Soviet Russian friends? If you don't have any, or know any, and you happen to run into some former Soviets, you'll find they some of the most wonderfully educated outstanding people.


In case you're not aware, under the hammer and sickle 40-60 million lives were lost. But since those were Europeans that's fine then?

If those kids made a skit lampooning blacks and slavery or the holocaust and jews, I bet you wouldn't be soo forgiving. That era is not very far in the past, there is people that came to America in the 80's and could have a grandchild in that band. Do you think that's something they enjoy seeing?



posted on Sep, 25 2012 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by Druscilla

Originally posted by NavyDoc

So you equate someone going to prison for rape or murder the same as going to a death camp because of his political views, the books he read, or if Stalin just didn't like him? Equating the deaths of a few hundred criminals to millions of innocent civilians?

What do you think about the Nazi death camps? By your reasoning Hitler should be given a pass as well?

Yes we did have slavery but we ended it and it is no longer celebrated today, Would you have a problem with the schools doing a display that glorified slave-owners in the south, or would you find it distasteful?
edit on 25-9-2012 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)


I equate all human abuse and exploitation as WRONG.
The United States of America is just as culpable as any other nation you desire to cite for abuse of its citizens.

Poor St. Louis Minorities Targeted for Secret War Chemical Testing

I've already mentioned Tuskeegee.

Let's not forget slavery in America which it seems NOONE wants to acknowledge.

Slavery in Russia existed on the territory of Russia since the times of the Kievan Rus, and was abolished in 1723, when Peter the Great converted the household slaves into house serfs.

source

And then there's that whole GENOCIDE of the Native American peoples thing.
Population history of indigenous peoples in Americas


One of the most contentious issues relating to disease depopulation in the Americas concerns the degree to which Europeans deliberately infected indigenous peoples with diseases such as smallpox.


Ahh, but, it's okay to wipe out entire cultures, and to have OWNED slaves because those are some of the things that helped to make America GREAT, right? Besides that, there were some lip service apologies where the Native Americans got a few acres of reservations to go get drunk on, and those black people got to vote eventually so, it's all fine and okay now right?








Actually, you are quite wrong. America does not celebrate its slave owning past. You talk about wiping out entire cultures. THe Marxists wiped out entire cultures and entire regions of people. Not over hundreds of years but in a few years. Killed millions of people in a single episode. How can you find any sort of moral equivalency? Let me ask again, do you not have a probelm with Nazism, or do you only not have a problem with genocide if it is done by Marxists?





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