Free Energy Device (Perpetual Motion)! He did it simply! Arranging magnets like people said couldn'

reply to post by TheRedneck

As part of my "Off The Grid" segment on the ATS Survival Internet Radio Broadcast (Bushcraft on Fire Radio), I am going to recreate this device. I will weekly be airing a description of my progress and conclusions for anyone who is curious about this device, and curious about the scientific approach to this type of research.

Save your effort .......It's a hoax!

Checkout the first two posts (in this thread) at the top of page 11...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by MeesterB
reply to post by inverslyproportional

 

I don't have to convince you.
Continue thinking that this guy suddenly rewrote everything we understand about the world.

Hoax , useless or real....
You can't convince someone that a better way will never exist.
Consider the possibility that you don't actually understand everything about the world.

reply to post by TheRedneck

As part of my "Off The Grid" segment on the ATS Survival Internet Radio Broadcast (Bushcraft on Fire Radio), I am going to recreate this device. I will weekly be airing a description of my progress and conclusions for anyone who is curious about this device, and curious about the scientific approach to this type of research.

Great for you buddy, deny ignorance.

I look forward to seeing your progress.

reply to post by OccamAssassin

Thanks for the heads-up.

But, it will cost little and might inform some people on how to approach such a claim. If a little time and a couple bucks raises the chances that hoaxes are called hoaxes rather than investigated, it's all worth it. Do you realize how hard the charlatans are making life on people who are actually working on real power production (like me)?

Not to mention, there is always the slight chance it will work; even if not in its present configuration, then with adjustments. Ferromagnetism does appear to violate entropy. Hence, either we do not fully understand entropy or ferromagnetism is not a closed system.

Besides, it might be fun.

TheRedneck

reply to post by Zecharia

Stay tuned to Bushcraft Radio.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck

But, it will cost little and might inform some people on how to approach such a claim. If a little time and a couple bucks raises the chances that hoaxes are called hoaxes rather than investigated, it's all worth it. Do you realize how hard the charlatans are making life on people who are actually working on real power production (like me)?

That is fair enough. Though I want to point out a few misconceptions about magnetism....

A permanent magnet constantly subjected to a reversal force will eventually lose its magnetism, but a magnet subjected to an aligned force will not.

A magnet aligned in a magnetic field will still gradually get weaker over time. The magnitude of the magnetic field will increase though when a magnet is added to an existing field/magnet.
Note too that in a literal sense, there is no such thing as a permanent magnet. Even rare earth magnets have a limited life and that life can be consumed ....just like a battery.

In addition, a permanent magnet will tend to create this aligning force in any ferromagnetic substance that exists in its field.

This is true (and it disproves your hypothesis that magnets somehow violate any of the laws of conservation) though it must be addressed that as the magnet influences the ferromagnetic substance, the magnet will get proportionately weaker.

A permanent magnet does not discharge particles; it creates a force field.

It doesn't discharge particles as such....it radiates a magnetic field. As with anything that radiates.....It has a limited life.

The proof either way will lie in physical prototyping, not in theory.

If the industrial community worked on that philosophy, nothing would get done.

Just one example of the many .....Every day, cars are designed on computers, modeled and the resultant data compared, long before any tooling, let alone actual manufacturing takes place.

It takes a sound understanding of principles such as magnetism, to be able to completely design and test a device before a prototype has been built. These days, a lot of manufacturing is now done blindly....i.e. no prototype is built, if the device passes the simulation.....it goes straight into production(this is prevalent in countries like China & Taiwan).

I had an idea some time back that I never got around to playing with. It involves a wheel with fixed and electro-magnets arrayed with the intent of using the electro-magnet triggered by a transistor and trip device to give a light push each go-around using very little energy to propel the rig.

This would not be a "perpetual-motion" device per se but could be very energy efficient. It would require a small battery to operate and an initial spin to put it in motion but I could see the wheel being propelled perhaps for months by a 9v or a couple AAA batteries. The fixed magnets would be used primarily as a trip device for the transistor to send a surge to the electro-magnet to repel it away from another fixed magnet or magnets in an array - perhaps at opposite ends of the wheel where one would trip the transistor with its opposite to receive the push.

I never got around to building the device but perhaps the idea could spark someone like The Redneck that is perhaps so inclined to experiment a bit with it perhaps with parts available from the hoaxed machine to be built.

I would be curious to hear if someone got such a device to operate as efficiently as I might envision it. I recall the idea coming from a brain-storming session with some other techies during a lull about 20 years ago. I can't rightfully think of whose idea it was but we all tossed it about, added ideas, and made a couple rough sketches. Yours for the doing but probably has already been done by someone sometime or another.

Originally posted by Erongaricuaro
I had an idea some time back that I never got around to playing with. It involves a wheel with fixed and electro-magnets arrayed with the intent of using the electro-magnet triggered by a transistor and trip device to give a light push each go-around using very little energy to propel the rig.

This would not be a "perpetual-motion" device per se

No, it would be what's known as an electric motor.

Unfortunately, you are nearly 200 years late inventing it.

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke

Originally posted by Erongaricuaro

This would not be a "perpetual-motion" device per se

No, it would be what's known as an electric motor.

Unfortunately, you are nearly 200 years late inventing it.

Perhaps a "solid-state" electric motor then. That would have to make it somewhat newer. Not terribly powerful it would be, but energy efficient. If only the batteries would've lasted so long in my childhood toys.

Even the hoaxed machine was a type of motor, though without an external energy source. Perhaps after another cup of coffee I will be re-inventing the wheel. Stand by.

reply to post by OccamAssassin

A magnet aligned in a magnetic field will still gradually get weaker over time. The magnitude of the magnetic field will increase though when a magnet is added to an existing field/magnet. Note too that in a literal sense, there is no such thing as a permanent magnet. Even rare earth magnets have a limited life and that life can be consumed ....just like a battery.

Perhaps we are getting into semantics, but it sounds like you are totally contradicting yourself. A magnet aligned positively with an outside magnetic field has its own magnetic field stabilized, and thus will not degrade over time. In the absence of an external magnetic field, you are correct that the magnetic field will slowly deteriorate over time, and an external negative (oppositely polarized) field will hasten this degradation.

The unique part of this is that the applied positively-aligned magnetic field can actually be induced by the magnet itself. This is what happens when 'keepers' are used to preserve the field strength of horseshoe magnets: the magnet induces a positive magnetic field in the iron keeper, which then serves to stabilize the magnetic field in the magnet and keep it from degrading.

This is true (and it disproves your hypothesis that magnets somehow violate any of the laws of conservation) though it must be addressed that as the magnet influences the ferromagnetic substance, the magnet will get proportionately weaker.

Untrue. A ferromagnetic substance in a magnetic field will actually intensify the field by its very presence, as well as concentrate it. That is the science behind the transformer, the electromagnet, and the solenoid.

It doesn't discharge particles as such....it radiates a magnetic field. As with anything that radiates.....It has a limited life.

Again, perhaps semantics, but 'radiates' implies a discharge of some sort. A magnet establishes a field rather than radiates it, as there is nothing we can detect that is radiated. We are not even sure what this field is, as the only way we can detect it is via force applied to magnetically-susceptible objects in that field.

It also does not follow that the existence of a field decreases the ability of the source of that field to continue production of the field. Electrons do not 'wear out', yet they produce an electrostatic field continuously.

If the industrial community worked on that philosophy, nothing would get done.

And if the scientific field worked without that principle, we would still be living in caves eating deer cooked over a fire we managed to find after a lightning strike.

Every major invention has used a prototype to prove its worth in real life. Any designer worth his salt can create something fantastic and have it work on paper in theory, but be unable to produce a prototype or finished product. The recent move toward prototype-less production is one of the most dangerous developments in industry I have seen to date; why do you think we had Toyotas with sticking fuel pedals?

I look at theory, yes. But as long as I cannot prove to myself that it cannot work, it follows that there is a possibility it will. As long as there is a possibility, it becomes worth thinking about a prototype.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck


You can do what you like.

I was just pointing out that you don't have a clue what you are doing.

People that dive into this topic armed with faith and hope.....do more damage than good.

Do you really think that your tiny little brain has stumbled onto something that has been tested to death by every major university on the planet and documented so well that it is included in every physics text that touches the subject?

Can you comprehend that the smartest people in the world have studied subjects like physics and the theory has held up to their scrutiny?

As I stated in an early page of this thread, magnetism(and hence electronics) is the only fundamental force that we truly understand. We have theories for Gravity as well as weak & strong nuclear forces, but nothing as complete as our understanding of electromagnetism.

reply to post by OccamAssassin

I was just pointing out that you don't have a clue what you are doing.

Ah, I see. Well, I guess me and my 'tiny little brain' will just have to go with 30 years of experimentation instead of listening to someone who thinks they have all the answers. After all, being able to design and build transformers, solenoids, relays, etc. is sooo much inferior to someone who can spout misunderstandings and insults on the Internet.

Nice talking to you.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck

As long as there is a possibility, it becomes worth thinking about a prototype.

Are you talking about the "device" in the OP of this thread? Did I miss where the debunk was debunked? You can save time and effort by just spinning a bicycle wheel with compressed air. After all that seems to be the only thing that "powered" this device.

BTW, why is this HOAX not in the bin?

reply to post by DenyObfuscation

Yes I am talking about the device in the OP of this thread. It will cost almost nothing and possibly inform a few people.

You're honestly not worried it will actually work, are you? I'm actually not, although I will give it the benefit of the doubt in true scientific fashion.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck

Ah, I see. Well, I guess me and my 'tiny little brain' will just have to go with 30 years of experimentation instead of listening to someone who thinks they have all the answers. After all, being able to design and build transformers, solenoids, relays, etc. is sooo much inferior to someone who can spout misunderstandings and insults on the Internet.

30 years of experimentation means diddle if you don't have a fundamental understanding of the subject to begin with.

If you really were able to converse on this subject in a confident manner, you would have instantly recognized that the device in question could not possibly work as it will violate the "laws of conservation".

If we pretend that the magnetic force is static(won't degrade with time/use) and we model the device, it becomes instantly apparent that it cannot work as any rotational motion is reliant on the arm rising and falling.

Ever heard of GPE?

Gravitational Potential Energy

GPE = mass x gravity x height = limited energy that the arm can impart.

If you take into account that there will be fricative forces as well ..... it becomes patently obvious that force required to lift the arm will be greater than the force the arm can impart when on a downward stroke. Regardless of how the magnets are arranged.

It simply won't work!

If you really want to have a crack at an engine powered by permanent magnets, then I would suggest approaching the subject from the same perspective as these kids..... maybe a rail mounted in a vertical circle with three or more magnetic shuttles linked by a hub and spokes. The only thing that could be an issue is building the device with a non-ferrite material to ensure that the magnetics will last as long as possible.

Unfortunately, I think that the energy expended to make the magnets will negate any ZPE claims, though it could be useful for remote/mobile applications.

reply to post by OccamAssassin

30 years of experimentation means diddle if you don't have a fundamental understanding of the subject to begin with.

OK, so I don't know as much as you... care to inform dumb li'l me as to what a Henry is? How about the difference between a Tesla and a Weber? Oh, while you're at it, maybe you could enlighten me as to the theoretical workings of an inductor and its uses?

Maybe you could explain the magnetic field surrounding a capacitor?

Sheesh... you'd think I was threatening your mother instead of just building a prototype...

TheRedneck

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by OccamAssassin

30 years of experimentation means diddle if you don't have a fundamental understanding of the subject to begin with.

OK, so I don't know as much as you... care to inform dumb li'l me as to what a Henry is? How about the difference between a Tesla and a Weber? Oh, while you're at it, maybe you could enlighten me as to the theoretical workings of an inductor and its uses?

Maybe you could explain the magnetic field surrounding a capacitor?

How about A+B AxB(by the e though it need not be). Should suffice the geekiest thee.

Sheesh... you'd think I was threatening your mother instead of just building a prototype...

Did you even bother to look at the first two posts at page 11 of this thread?

You obviously did not click on the links I provided.

Here they are again for your benefit.

Checkout the first two posts (in this thread) at the top of page 11...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

To summarize, The device was put together by youtube user ROOBERT33 who admitted that it was a hoax after it had gone viral. He has even released footage of himself making the hoax.

reply to post by OccamAssassin

How about A+B AxB(by the e though it need not be). Should suffice the geekiest thee.

Thought so. Here I pose three basic questions concerning magnetic theory and application, and all you can do is recite some silly rhyme that is no more than a bunch of mathematical terms thrown together without any understanding of what they are (OK, I admit it: capacitors do not possess any appreciable magnetic field; they are completely electrical in nature. That one was a trick question).

What we have here is a prime example of why nothing ever gets done on alternate energy sources outside of charlatans or scam artists. People who do not understand the physics behind what they are seeing and thus either accept something without question or deny it because they can't understand it, all the while demonstrating a total misunderstanding of what is actually happening.

Did you even bother to look at the first two posts at page 11 of this thread?

Yes I did. Did you read where I said I was skeptical even before that?

Bottom line: despite what you say, I am going to recreate this, in audio segments with possible video backups depending on the results. It's going to happen. Now, if that destroys your entire concept of reality, I'm really sorry. But it will happen, and I will report exactly what happens, pro or con.

Someone who doesn't know everything there is to know already just might learn something in the process... and it might be me! Guess you're going to have to live with that.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck

You're honestly not worried it will actually work, are you?

No worries there, I know it will work. You could replace the magnets with gumdrops and it will work. Just don't forget the air compressor setup.

What worries me is that you are a Forum Moderator confronted with an obvious hoax but rather than do the right thing with this thread you choose to ignore that fact.

Roll Tide

Originally posted by MeesterB
reply to post by inverslyproportional

 

I'm saying that gravity pulls the arm down just enough at the beginning to get the magnet cycle going. I'm not saying that gravity moves the arm the whole time. Without the arm, he would have to give the drum a little push to get it going.

The arm being the curved bit attached to the axle that rotates with the cylinder.

edit on 9/25/2012 by MeesterB because: (no reason given)

edit on 9/25/2012 by MeesterB because: (no reason given)

Would the gravity pulling down on the upward moving parts be an equal and opposite reaction? of would there have to be more power to overcome the resistance to gravity on the upward swing?