Even John and Paul disagree with the God of the OT

Originally posted by MamaJ

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by MamaJ

 

How can you agree with an argument for the early date and an argument for the late date? By the mid 2nd century Thomas had been dead for 100 years.

I never said that I agree with both. Read again, maybe?

So what, Thomas was dead by the 2nd century? And?

Thomas was in India in 52 AD. Thomas in India

So how could Thomas write a Gnostic Gospel in a place he was NOT at?

The testimonies of Eusebius (early 4th cent.) and St. Jerome (342-420 A.D.) about the mission of Pantaenus, a Christian philosopher sent by bishop Demetrius of Alexandria, "to preach Christ to the Brahmins and to the philosophers of India" in A.D. 190 affirms the tradition. The testimonies of the Fathers of the Church like St. Ephrem (306-373 A.D.), St. Gregory of Nazianze (324-390 A.D.), St. Ambrose (333-397 A.D.), St. Jerome, St. Gregory of Tours (6th cent.) and Isidore of Seville (7th cent.) are also notable. In various ways, they speak about the apostolate of St. Thomas, about the Christians of India, and about the priestly succession there. This is also attested to by several ecclesiastical calendars, martyrologies and other liturgical books of the Coptic, Greek, Latin and Mesopotamian Churches.

What makes these forgeries is that if in those 20 some years before he left for India, why did he NOT teach the same thing in India? It would seem that if he was creating a new theology then he would have taken that new theology with him, yet he did not. Those Christian churches in India that he founded, are STILL there.

Someone named Thomas might have written them, but not the Apostle Thomas. The book of Thomas was found in Egypt, yet Thomas was in Syria and Iran before India.

Indian Christianity

So whatever is considered by the Gnostics simply do not fit into the life of Thomas and since Thomas did not take with him his own book or his own theology, then it stands to reason the Gnostic Gospel has nothing to do with the Apostle Thomas. How could Thomas write a book in a place he was not at?

Originally posted by WarminIndy

Originally posted by MamaJ

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by MamaJ

 

How can you agree with an argument for the early date and an argument for the late date? By the mid 2nd century Thomas had been dead for 100 years.

I never said that I agree with both. Read again, maybe?

So what, Thomas was dead by the 2nd century? And?

Thomas was in India in 52 AD. Thomas in India

So how could Thomas write a Gnostic Gospel in a place he was NOT at?

The Gospel of Thomas is semi-misnamed, as it is not represented to have been written by the Apostle Thomas, but by a rather more unlikely person:

These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke and which Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down.

Didymos and Thomas are not names, they are descriptions, one in Greek, one in Hebrew, which both mean "twin". The purported author is Judas, the twin brother of Jesus.

Never heard of him? That's not surprising, unless you were a Second Century Syriac Christian, the only group that I know of that believed that Jesus had a non-divine twin brother (possibly reflective of a similar claim about Hercules, who had a non-divine twin brother, Iphicles.)

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by Akragon

 

That doesn't answer the question -- if you agree with 100% of the things that Jesus has to say in the Gospels, but you think that God, as depicted in the Old Testament is evil, corrupt and (perhaps) a fantasy, why did Jesus refer to him as his Father in that passage from Mark, and say that the Temple in Jerusalem, where the sacrifices outlined in the Old Testament were being performed, was a sacred place being fouled by merchants and moneychangers?

Ah but it does answer the question... As i've said this temple was a symbol of God for the people... The place where he is worshipped on earth at that time in that area... And who needs a corrupted symbol...

Similar to if some person set up a blackjack table in your church... Or started using the cross in your church as a coat rack... Its simply disrespectful towards something that is supposed to "represent" (key word) God on earth...

And i don't recall Jesus ever saying... "The guy that "inspired" these books is my Father" he did say search the scriptures for they speak of me though... but thats hardly the same meaning

Originally posted by Akragon
Ah but it does answer the question... As i've said this temple was a symbol of God for the people... The place where he is worshipped on earth at that time in that area... And who needs a corrupted symbol...

But, if it was just a symbol of God for the Jews, it was a symbol of this evil corrupt God of the Jews that you've defined. I don't remember Jesus complaining about how people treated any Roman or Persian Temple, why wouldn't he treat this temple with the same indifference? If the God of the Jews, worshiped in that Temple, was really a horrible misrepresentation of the "true God", and Jesus knew it, why did he behave the way that he did?

And i don't recall Jesus ever saying... "The guy that "inspired" these books is my Father"

Well, of course you don't recall that, because he never said anything about "The guy that "inspired" these books".

He did, however, say this a few times:

When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”

They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. (Matthew 16:13-17 NIV)

Jesus was Jewish, and there was no equivocating who God was -- when he talked about God or the Father, he was talking about the God of the Jews, the God of the Covenant with Abraham, the God of the Hebrew Bible, not some New Age "Love is all we need" parody.

The Gospel of Thomas is semi-misnamed, as it is not represented to have been written by the Apostle Thomas, but by a rather more unlikely person: These are the secret sayings which the living Jesus spoke and which Didymos Judas Thomas wrote down. Didymos and Thomas are not names, they are descriptions, one in Greek, one in Hebrew, which both mean "twin". The purported author is Judas, the twin brother of Jesus.

reply to post by adjensen


Im aware of the "twin".

What I am not worried about nor do I care at all is who wrote what and when.

If that were the case we would need a thread about all of the "books" and I would want to start with Matthew.

Either way, I like Thomas and thats that.

Why it didnt make the cut, who wrote it and when is all debatable without an end in site to said debate.

They could all be forgeries for that matter.

Fact is we were not there and all of Jesus "secret" teachings were burned and or buried.

reply to post by adjensen


That quote didnt say anything about inspiring words of God written down.

Jesus was referring to his spirit connection with the feelings that he is the son of god.

He had been reincarnated. This was an early teaching from Jesus that didnt make the cut either.

Jesus was Jewish, and there was no equivocating who God was -- when he talked about God or the Father, he was talking about the God of the Jews, the God of the Covenant with Abraham, the God of the Hebrew Bible, not some New Age "Love is all we need" parody.

reply to post by adjensen


Where does Jesus say he was a Jew and God was a God for the Jews.

Are you a Jew?

Was Jesus a Jewish Messiah then?

or...

Is He the Christian Christ?

I thought Jesus told the "Jews" they did not believe and were not his sheep?

I do NOT think he was a Jew.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by Akragon


Jesus was Jewish, and there was no equivocating who God was -- when he talked about God or the Father, he was talking about the God of the Jews, the God of the Covenant with Abraham, the God of the Hebrew Bible, not some New Age "Love is all we need" parody.

There are several things in the Bible that clarify that He was Jewish.
1:His mother had to fulfill the days of her uncleanness according to the law of Moses.
2:They took Jesus into the TEMPLE to be circumcised according to the law of Moses.
3: Simeon was a priest in the TEMPLE.
4: When Mary and Joseph went to Jerusalem for a feast, they left Jesus at the TEMPLE.
5: He was called rabbi.
6: He wore a prayer shawl of the Orthodox Jews.
7: He holds a menorah in Revelation.
8: The ark of the covenant is under His throne.
9: The woman at the well acknowledges He is Jewish, not Samaritan.
10.He indicated it was the temple that Herod built that would be destroyed.
11. He was from the tribe of Judah, not Levi.
12. He is a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedeck, King of Salem.
13. Salem was the old name of Jerusalem.
14. In Revelation, He still wears the prayer shawl.

When people say that Herod's temple would be the last, it goes against Bible prophecy because Herod was only half-Jewish and placed there by Rome. The temple was a gift from Herod. So the Jews never built it. Jesus refers back to Solomon many times. He remarked about the glory of Solomon and that the Queen of Sheba would rise in judgment against the wicked generation because she went to hear the wisdom of Solomon but behold, a greater than Solomon is here. The only time He mentioned Herod's temple was in Matthew 24, talking about the building being torn down.

If you read about Solomon's temple, 120 singers and musicians were there and they all became united and the glory of God came down. At the upper room, 120 people were praying in unity and the glory of God came down. Jesus descended from Judah as did Solomon. So the reference is made about another temple rebuilt by the Jews themselves that will be greater than Solomon's. The temple Jesus says is the one not made by man's hands, but indicates a physical temple will be built. He never acknowledges Herod's temple.

When Jesus come back, He will stand with one foot on the Mount of Olives and it will split. I don't think that can be a spiritual event, it has to be real. There is no valley yet there, so it must be a future event.

Zechariah 14:20In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. 21Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

The pots and pans in the Lord's house? That is the temple. And there shall be no more Canaanite....Herod was a Canaanite, so the temple he built cannot be be the last one.

Adjensen, keep on the good work telling people the truth. Maybe soon we shall see the two witnesses, and people will then know what you and I have told them was correct.

Originally posted by MamaJ

Jesus was Jewish, and there was no equivocating who God was -- when he talked about God or the Father, he was talking about the God of the Jews, the God of the Covenant with Abraham, the God of the Hebrew Bible, not some New Age "Love is all we need" parody.

reply to post by adjensen

 

Where does Jesus say he was a Jew and God was a God for the Jews.

Are you a Jew?

Was Jesus a Jewish Messiah then?

or...

Is He the Christian Christ?

I thought Jesus told the "Jews" they did not believe and were not his sheep?

I do NOT think he was a Jew.

edit on 26-9-2012 by MamaJ because: (no reason given)

There are several things in the Bible that clarify that He was Jewish.
1:His mother had to fulfill the days of her uncleanness according to the law of Moses.
2:They took Jesus into the TEMPLE to be circumcised according to the law of Moses.
3: Simeon was a priest in the TEMPLE.
4: When Mary and Joseph went to Jerusalem for a feast, they left Jesus at the TEMPLE.
5: He was called rabbi.
6: He wore a prayer shawl of the Orthodox Jews.
7: He holds a menorah in Revelation.
8: The ark of the covenant is under His throne.
9: The woman at the well acknowledges He is Jewish, not Samaritan.
10.He indicated it was the temple that Herod built that would be destroyed.
11. He was from the tribe of Judah, not Levi.
12. He is a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedeck, King of Salem.
13. Salem was the old name of Jerusalem.
14. In Revelation, He still wears the prayer shawl.




Prayer Shawls

Ruth 2:12 The Lord recompense thy work, and a full reward be given thee of the Lord God of Israel, under whose wings thou art come to trust.

Psalm 36:7 How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.

Malachi 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Numbers 15:38 Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue:

Exodus 39:24 And they made upon the hems of the robe pomegranates of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and twined linen.

The woman was healed by touching the hem of his garment. What was that? The prayer shawl. What color robe was Jesus wearing that the Roman soldiers gambled over? Purple.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

I think Jesus clearly states He is Jewish. He wore a purple robe that was designed for the high priest as a statute by Moses. His mother kept the law of Moses. He was circumcised according to the law of Moses. He kept the feast days. The last supper was a seder meal, which is a Jewish tradition. When He says "scripture must be fulfilled" it was the Torah scripture he was always referring to. Yes, He was Jewish.

Originally posted by MamaJ
Where does Jesus say he was a Jew and God was a God for the Jews.

I do NOT think he was a Jew.

Seriously? Have you never read the Bible, then?

There is absolutely no doubt that he was Jewish -- even the Gnostics had to come up with ways to work around it, and Marcion had to throw out every book in the New Testament, apart from a heavily edited version of Luke and some modified versions of Paul's epistles to "get the Jewishness out of the scripture."

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by MamaJ
Where does Jesus say he was a Jew and God was a God for the Jews.

I do NOT think he was a Jew.

Seriously? Have you never read the Bible, then?

There is absolutely no doubt that he was Jewish -- even the Gnostics had to come up with ways to work around it, and Marcion had to throw out every book in the New Testament, apart from a heavily edited version of Luke and some modified versions of Paul's epistles to "get the Jewishness out of the scripture."

My dad is a Methodist Minister. UH...... Yeah.... read it plenty of times. Front TO Back!!!!!!! Thank you. Yeah, Thats why I believe in reincarnation, Jesus taught it... in the Bible.

You can preach it how you like, but I see it another way. I am not you. Sorry.

Jesus was not a Jew.... He is not coming back for any one religion. When he comes back your heart will either lead you to him or will deny him.

There are some here who believe it to be one way or the highway but what many do not understand is the Bible and other ancient texts are scattered about so we will look for him in everything. We will know him by his fruit.

The fruit is "good".

The Golden Rule is not for one sect. The Golden Rule is for all of Gods children in any or no religion. God does not judge us based on religions, he judges the heart of men.

If you preach division you are no better than the Synagogue of Satan.

Thats my opinion.... I will leave this thread to all of you to rant and rave on all the others who have chosen to have a personal relationship rather than be told how the relationship should be.

When I read my Bible a Jew is not even spoken about until II Kings. Israel was at war with the Jews.

Jesus did NOT preach religion. He didn't like it.... and neither should his followers. It puts hate in the heart.

The Jews supposedly wrote the first five books, yet where is the mention of Jews?

When Jesus comes back.... imagine all the Christians who will be fooled. Dont be one of them.

reply to post by MamaJ


Jesus's mother was from the line of David's son Nathan. She was a Jew. You read the Bible all those times and never read Mary's genealogy? Both Mary and Joseph were of the tribe of Judah, and house of David.

Originally posted by MamaJ
The Jews supposedly wrote the first five books, yet where is the mention of Jews?

When Jesus comes back.... imagine all the Christians who will be fooled. Dont be one of them.

The Jews popular today does not indicate they are under the New Covenant, not even a hint! Their current place in the Middle East is not the one prophesied in the Bible, it is yet to happen!

They show no change of heart, they are the same people before and after 1948. They do not even remotely resemble in actions/deed the 'People of the House of Israel' under the New Covenant. Therefore, it is not them!

They are impostors!!

They will see a 'Jewish' Jesus alright, but probably the false messiah. The one who will advocate worship of idols - money, possessions, and the pride of life!! The God you love will come to you!!

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by MamaJ

 

Jesus's mother was from the line of David's son Nathan. She was a Jew. You read the Bible all those times and never read Mary's genealogy? Both Mary and Joseph were of the tribe of Judah, and house of David.

Jews?

Now Mary was a Jew too, huh? Ancient Judaism are not all Jews... you know this right?

Believe what you may... I will too. I will conduct my own research without the spoon feeding. My salvation is worth the effort.

I bet you believe Abraham was a Jew too??

If this is truly "end times", you people will be surprised!

Im sure you believe the "true Jews" live in Israel too then?

Ancient Israelites is a debate all on its own and requires its own thread! We would have to go back farther than two thousands years.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by MamaJ
Where does Jesus say he was a Jew and God was a God for the Jews.

I do NOT think he was a Jew.

Seriously? Have you never read the Bible, then?

There is absolutely no doubt that he was Jewish -- even the Gnostics had to come up with ways to work around it, and Marcion had to throw out every book in the New Testament, apart from a heavily edited version of Luke and some modified versions of Paul's epistles to "get the Jewishness out of the scripture."

Have you done your homework on "Jews"?

If you have then you and I are still not going to agree.

So be it.

Originally posted by MamaJ
Have you done your homework on "Jews"?

If you have then you and I are still not going to agree.

So be it.

The only people that I have had such semantical discussions in the past with are anti-Semites and/or anti-Israelis, neither of which I am interested in debating. I do not suggest that you are either of these, but if I have not been interested in such discussions in the past, I am not likely to be interested now or in the future.

In the New Testament, there is no indication, whatsoever, that "Jesus taught reincarnation", and there is an preponderance of evidence that he was born a Jew, was a raised a Jew, and upheld Jewish Law, scripture and worship of the God of Israel. To claim the former and deny the latter is to make a mockery of the text.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by MamaJ
Have you done your homework on "Jews"?

If you have then you and I are still not going to agree.

So be it.

The only people that I have had such semantical discussions in the past with are anti-Semites and/or anti-Israelis, neither of which I am interested in debating. I do not suggest that you are either of these, but if I have not been interested in such discussions in the past, I am not likely to be interested now or in the future.

In the New Testament, there is no indication, whatsoever, that "Jesus taught reincarnation", and there is an preponderance of evidence that he was born a Jew, was a raised a Jew, and upheld Jewish Law, scripture and worship of the God of Israel. To claim the former and deny the latter is to make a mockery of the text.

There are passages in the Bible whereas Jesus speaks of reincarnation. Google it. There are MANY!

We live in a time where History can be read with a click... at our finger tips.

Jesus clearly says not to be fooled and I for one take his sayings to heart. His words are found in different manuscripts, not just the Bible. You know this right?

Seeking his Kingdom within is where the heart does not lie.

Its funny, the Christian Religion was not taught by him.

What Religion did he teach?

Love.

Your Religion is a mixture of other religions and philosophy.

Who birthed Christianity? Jesus? Jews? Romans?

True Jews do not even live in Israel anymore.... you know this right?

Who is Israel again?

Who is the God of Israel? Who is Israel? What religion?

Im talking roots!

reply to post by MamaJ


Abraham was a gentile. Children of JUDAH are Jews, however it's a point to note that after the Babylonian captivity the terms "Jew" and "Israelite" were used interchangeably. But as far as "Jew" goes, both Mary and Joseph were of the tribe of JUDAH and house of David. The genealogy of both are listed in scripture, you can check for yourself.

reply to post by ahnggk


Well, the Bible says in their affliction they will seek Him earnestly, the time of Jacob's trouble. (Great Tribulation). They aren't supposed to be reconciled before that event according to scripture, so to point out that they still reject the New Covenant is sorta a silly argument since obviously we are not in the Great Tribulation ye5.

reply to post by MamaJ


Jesus never taught reincarnation, what Bible are you reading?