Even John and Paul disagree with the God of the OT

I was recently reading over some passages in the bible, and came across a little issue...

Now those that know me, also know i do not support the OT or much of the NT... yet the NT does have some excellent messages, so i do occasionally delve outside of the gospels depending the topic im studying.

The issue starts with 1 john 4... lets take a look

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

........

Ironically enough, theres been quite a lot of discussion about the anti-christ on ATS lately... And in one of the threads i stated specifically... "theres already tons of Anti-christ's in the world already".... there likely won't be a single entity that will take the title of Anti-christ.

continuing on...

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Here comes the issue...

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Hold the phone...

God is love... While i do not entirely disagree with this statement... i would not say "God is love", but mearly an aspect of God... That which brings us to him...

But... keeping that in mind, lets move on to Paul... His view on love is one of the few things i do like about his writing...

1 Corinthians 13

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others,

it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.


Essentially saying God is love, and does not keep record of wrongs...

Yet..

Why does this God command his so called "children" to destroy the lives of others in so many passages within the OT?

IF this God is love... And paul says "love is not easily angered and keeps no records of wrongs"...

Then this can not be the one true God Jesus spoke of...

Lets see some examples of this God keeping records of peoples wrong doings...

Even placing blame of those that are innocent... like here

(Isaiah 14:21)
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants.

(Jeremiah 51:20-26)
"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD.

(Deuteronomy 22:20-21)
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.


IF God is love... And Love keeps no record of wrongs as Paul says...

Are you sure this OT God is actually your God?

reply to post by Akragon


All I have to go on is feelings. I wish I KNEW for sure... but all I have is what has been given to me by the way of senses.

I feel.....

God is love. Period. The love Paul spoke about is what I think God is.

When we read about the killings and what God is going to do to this one and that one, It just doesn't FEEL right to me.

Also, when someone freely speaks their opinion regarding what God did for them, for example. "God saved my son from cancer because...... "

I then think, my son battled cancer for five long years and God didn't "save" him. My journey began because people claim to KNOW God and in doing so they believe he plays favoritism. I just don't buy that...AT ALL!

I feel like mans words were mixed in with the love of God's words in the Bible. Period.

Man and his need for control and to feel better than his brother creates a hostility in other people and this is proof that God, our father, is and always will be nothing but pure love.

Men with their power abuse this love.

Just my thoughts.... xoxox

Jenn

Yes, God is love, but God is not only love. He is also holy and righteous. He is also anger against wickedness and rebellion. It's like saying about me: "Ron is a father", yes, I am a father that's true, but I am much more than that as well. Same with God, He is love, perfect love, but He is much more than that.

Nice thread idea tho, S & F.

It's like saying about me: "Ron is a father", yes, I am a father that's true, but I am much more than that as well. Same with God,

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Same with God?

God is not human, you are.

Its not the same with God, at least I don't think it would be.

God is not hateful and unjust. He is not on an ego trip nor does he play favorites. He is not human.

God is love.

Out of his pure love he gave us eternal life and inheritance to his Kingdom.

reply to post by MamaJ

Also, when someone freely speaks their opinion regarding what God did for them, for example. "God saved my son from cancer because...... "

I then think, my son battled cancer for five long years and God didn't "save" him. My journey began because people claim to KNOW God and in doing so they believe he plays favoritism. I just don't buy that...AT ALL!.

I feel for your loss my friend...

Perhaps God did bless you with the time you had with your son... he said children are of the kingdom of God

Did his death change your beliefs?

There is a reason behind everything, even though that reason might elude us...

Love ya Mama! You will see him again...

The only thing John and Paul ever agreed upon was this, "And in the end, the love you take, is equal to the love....you make."

reply to post by Akragon


Type "False Apostle Paul" or "Benjaminite Wolf Paul" into a search engine and dig around...

IMHO take John's word, as he was acknowledged by Jesus Christ directly. You are welcome to take the words of a self appointed, Christian killing Paul if you like...but there is a test being administered...

Paul teaches that the laws of Torah that Jesus taught are not to be followed after Jesus was crucified.

Lets think this through...

He died for your sins, so you can repeat the same sins he died for?...hmmmm ok...

You expect him to die for your sins again?

the self appointed apostle...follow him to hell?

Christ warned of a false apostle that would rise from the tribe of Benjamin...

reply to post by MamaJ

God is not hateful and unjust. He is not on an ego trip nor does he play favorites. He is not human.

He does not play favorites in a human sense. But, those who sit closer to him, (rank) are given more weight in their requests than say another who sits farther away.

When it comes to man, he will "protect" or look out for those who are of him, more than he would the ones who are not of him.

If you can see, this is evident by the type of angels that surround said person.

Originally posted by Drala
reply to post by Akragon

 

Type "False Apostle Paul" or "Benjaminite Wolf Paul" into a search engine and dig around...

IMHO take John's word, as he was acknowledged by Jesus Christ directly. You are welcome to take the words of a self appointed, Christian killing Paul if you like...but there is a test being administered...

Paul teaches that the laws of Torah that Jesus taught are not to be followed after Jesus was crucified.

Lets think this through...

He died for your sins, so you can repeat the same sins he died for?...hmmmm ok...

You expect him to die for your sins again?

the self appointed apostle...follow him to hell?

Christ warned of a false apostle that would rise from the tribe of Benjamin...

edit on 9/24/2012 by Drala because: changed my mind...i can do that..i think...

Brother...

I can't tell you how many arguments I've had on Paul's account. I was dating a model in Texas and broke up with her over our contention whether or not women should speak in the church...ha. I stated simply, it's one of the two, either follow the words of Paul as Christ, or declare him an apostate. You can't have it both ways.

Originally posted by Drala
reply to post by Akragon

 

Type "False Apostle Paul" or "Benjaminite Wolf Paul" into a search engine and dig around...

IMHO take John's word, as he was acknowledged by Jesus Christ directly. You are welcome to take the words of a self appointed, Christian killing Paul if you like...but there is a test being administered...

Paul teaches that the laws of Torah that Jesus taught are not to be followed after Jesus was crucified.

Lets think this through...

He died for your sins, so you can repeat the same sins he died for?...hmmmm ok...

You expect him to die for your sins again?

the self appointed apostle...follow him to hell?

Christ warned of a false apostle that would rise from the tribe of Benjamin...

edit on 9/24/2012 by Drala because: changed my mind...i can do that..i think...

By chance have you read 2 Peter 3:15-16?

reply to post by Akragon

very very good thread, i won't pretend to understand the bible fully as i'm still learning but i came to the conclusion that the god in the OT was really satan in disguise a couple of weeks back and lets just say the bible makes much more sense to me now, there are a lot of verses in the bible that seem to confirm this for me, here's the one that really got me thinking,

48 “Hear this, O house of Jacob, Who are called by the name of Israel, And have come forth from the wellsprings of Judah; Who swear by the name of the Lord, And make mention of the God of Israel, But not in truth or in righteousness;
2 For they call themselves after the holy city, And lean on the God of Israel; The Lord of hosts is His name:

Originally posted by MamaJ

It's like saying about me: "Ron is a father", yes, I am a father that's true, but I am much more than that as well. Same with God,

reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Same with God?

God is not human, you are.

Its not the same with God, at least I don't think it would be.

God is not hateful and unjust. He is not on an ego trip nor does he play favorites. He is not human.

God is love.

Out of his pure love he gave us eternal life and inheritance to his Kingdom.

Actually, even more so with God how He can be many things at once considering He is an infinite being and I am finite. And I never said He was hateful or unjust, so that's just a straw man.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Drala
reply to post by Akragon

 

Type "False Apostle Paul" or "Benjaminite Wolf Paul" into a search engine and dig around...

IMHO take John's word, as he was acknowledged by Jesus Christ directly. You are welcome to take the words of a self appointed, Christian killing Paul if you like...but there is a test being administered...

Paul teaches that the laws of Torah that Jesus taught are not to be followed after Jesus was crucified.

Lets think this through...

He died for your sins, so you can repeat the same sins he died for?...hmmmm ok...

You expect him to die for your sins again?

the self appointed apostle...follow him to hell?

Christ warned of a false apostle that would rise from the tribe of Benjamin...

edit on 9/24/2012 by Drala because: changed my mind...i can do that..i think...

By chance have you read 2 Peter 3:15-16?

Excellent! Wonderful! Nice...

reply to post by BBobb


You broke up over that?? That's not even relevant today because women and men do not sit on opposite sides of a synagogue to have church. Today wives can whisper questions to their husbands and not interrupt services. Not to make light of your break up, but personally I would have consulted a few commentaries first on that one.

reply to post by BBobb


Yes, no?

reply to post by Akragon

Essentially saying God is love, and does not keep record of wrongs...

Yet..

Why does this God command his so called "children" to destroy the lives of others in so many passages within the OT?

IF this God is love... And paul says "love is not easily angered and keeps no records of wrongs"...

Then this can not be the one true God Jesus spoke of...

Lets see some examples of this God keeping records of peoples wrong doings...

Even placing blame of those that are innocent... like here

More than anything, the Bible is a legal brief and testament of judgment by historical context. A trial is ongoing and judgments happen between each birth and death. There is a final judgment at the end and we all wait in life for the second coming of the judge of nations.

Hebrews 9:27-28

27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

I think it is worth noting that God separates the light from the darkness. God is love. This is true. He keeps no record of wrongs against those who also abide in love. Love is the law that fulfills the requirement for the law. As for those who are not in that family by choice, the law of love does not apply to them. The law of sin and death applies. This is point number one to make.

The second thing to consider is the fact that God gives and receives. He does not take unless taking becomes a way to give again. God has the right to take His Spirit and he has the right to give His Spirit. When we read this verse, we see how this is a reality.

Genesis 1:27

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.

Before I write a book, the image is nothing. It then moves to conception by the intellect and then becomes a concrete object when published. We are the same with one difference. The image and thought we possess is from God's Spirit. We are veiled behind the entrance to the temple from seeing back to God. God sees to us through the image and He also sees through our eyes. The soul is the gift God gives, but the Spirit that gives life is God Himself. We are nothing but a conception until we are actualized into a soul in the material world. We are then given free will to use the gift. Death is God's right and that death comes by divine providence.

Notice the verse above. God made an image of Himself within an image of creation. When you look at an image, it is only a representation of the real. This is why the same verse set in Hebrews 9 tells us this:

23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence.

Notice that we are a copy of the real sanctuary. The copy can die, yet the one casting the image can never die. This is why 1 Corinthians 13 says this:

12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

God sees both sides of the mirror image. We see one. Read Hebrews 9 fully with this in mind and you suddenly know why the HIGH PRIEST has the right to sacrifice the beast on the altar. It is his duty to perform this trial by water and fire on us to refine our faith. We do not see both sides so we are not aware of why it is important for us to experience the destiny God assigns. Part of the destiny is ours to manage as well. We have a choice.

Your entire premise of the OT misses this truth. Once you understand that we do not have the right to our soul, but God manages that faith, you can then know the truth behind divine justice. "You must be born again." This is the central fact missed by those who say that death and the law that regulated thieves was not necessary. It was necessary because the entire thing is based on legal principles. Consider this.

Galatians 3

23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Christ did what we could not. God died on the cross to free us from the process. God is love and love gives. If we choose not to accept the gift on His terms, we reject life itself for a dead soul in eternity. God offers it His way and legally, it is divine justice at work.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Good reply... but

God sees both sides of the mirror image. We see one. Read Hebrews 9 fully with this in mind and you suddenly know why the HIGH PRIEST has the right to sacrifice the beast on the altar. It is his duty to perform this trial by water and fire on us to refine our faith. We do not see both sides so we are not aware of why it is important for us to experience the destiny God assigns. Part of the destiny is ours to manage as well. We have a choice.

Your entire premise of the OT misses this truth. Once you understand that we do not have the right to our soul, but God manages that faith, you can then know the truth behind divine justice.

Do you consider killing children divine justice?


(Ezekiel 9:5-7)
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told."


IF Jesus said "children are of the kingdom of God"...

Why does the OT God ask his people to kill children... Even though Jesus said

42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.


Why does this so called God condem his own people?

Clearly the murder of a child is an "offence" to God

reply to post by Akragon


The next point is to identify who Paul and Jesus were speaking to with condemnation. If you know anything about Hebrew Rabbinical history, the Jews legalized everything. They missed the entire point of their own history and still do to this day. This is clear when reading the Pirkei Avot. It is also clear by what Jesus stated about the "Experts" in the law that were misrepresenting God's Torah for their own compromise to truth. Jesus came to reveal the mystery behind their oral tradition. He knew that the enemy to Christianity would partially be the Jews themselves. Today, I see this as the ultra-orthodox tradition.

I am currently reading the Pirkei Avot. There are parts that are emeralds of truth. Other parts make my soul ache.

reply to post by Akragon


Matthew Henry gives the reasoning. Divine Justice allows for God to choose by legal principle. He can't take anything from anyone that He is not also talking from Himself. He always gives it back. "You must be born again." God gives back the same life he takes. His will is ultimately not ours to dictate as we are all reflections of Him. The ultimate gift is the world to come, which is a parallel creation to this image. Paradise is the world to come, which is where we are all headed. Ultimately, it is all for God's glory there and not ours here. Pride would say, "How dare you take this from me." Humility recognizes the end of the road as the beginning of the next. God gives it all to us and his reasoning is not ours. Ours is not his. In the end, we will know as we are already known.

This is the hill which God desires to dwell in, Ps. 68:16. Jerusalem was a city upon a hill, conspicuous and illustrious, and which all the neighbouring nations had an eye upon, some for good-will, some for ill-will. 2. Jerusalem was designed to have a good influence upon the nations and countries round about, was set in the midst of them as a candle upon a candlestick, to spread the light of divine revelation, which she was blessed with, to all the dark corners of the neighbouring nations, that from them it might diffuse itself further, even to the ends of the earth. Jerusalem was set in the midst of the nations, to be as the heart in the body, to invigorate this dead world with a divine life as well as to enlighten this dark world with a divine light, to be an example of every thing that was good. The nations that observed what excellent statutes and judgments they had concluded them to be a wise and understanding people (Deut. 4:6), fit to be consulted as an oracle, as they were in Solomon’s time, 1 Kgs. 4:34. And, had they preserved this reputation and made a right use of it, what a blessing would Jerusalem have been to all the nations about! But, failing to be so, the accomplishment of this intention was reserved for its latter days, when out of Zion went forth the gospel law and the word of the Lord Jesus from Jerusalem, and there repentance and remission began to be preached, and thence the preachers of them went forth into all nations. And, when that was done, Jerusalem was levelled with the ground. Note, When places and persons are made great, it is with design that they may do good and that those about them may be the better for them, that their light may shine before men.

reply to post by Akragon


I thought you didn't like Paul, why are you citing him in this inane argument?