Catholics to exclude dodgers of church tax

Originally posted by TheComte
It's time to end the tax-free status of religious institutions. They've had a free ride for far too long. And in these times of fiscal uncertainty, governments could sure use the income.

Why should the Church have to pay property taxes? In fact, why should any of us? The more properties that are tax-free the better imho. Also, the fiscal uncertainty wasnt caused by a lack of taxes, it was caused by people being greedy and over reaching by spending more then they had on both wall street and main street. If you add more taxes then the goverments will just look at it like its more money for their playgrounds instead of actually realing in spending.

i just have to say that I had no idea this "tax" was occurring before I read this thread. The thought of a state collecting money for the churches just blows me away. I am left speechless. Do any other states collect such a tax?

reply to post by TheComte


I don't attend adhere to any official religion, so I don't have a horse in this race, I just oppose more taxation. I think we have more than enough money flowing to our corrupt, wasteful, and inefficient governments. I live in the DC area, and through my own friendships and contacts and those of my husband, I know a lot of people doing contract work for various levels of government and they tell of waste and inefficiency that is mind boggling. It actually makes me doubt some conspiracies and just believe that any group of people formed for any purpose eventually detiorates to the lowest common denominator and aspires to achieve no more than its most base level of potential and functionality. But this is off topic so I'll save it for another time.

From what I've been able to find out, churches do pay some taxes. For instance they pay taxes on property not being used directly in their charitable ministries. From what I read the original idea of exemption was to ease the burden of institutions that provide charitable social services that take that burden off the government. After all, it's not just religious institutions that get exemptions and tax breaks, there are many other kinds of groups and organizations out there that qualify for certain exemptions. But I'm not one hundred percent sure this information I looked up is correct so don't hold me to it. Again, it's off topic anyway and food for a thread of its own. I have no deep rooted opposition to your opinion, if someday, despite eradicating waste, corruption, and inefficiency, we still lack enough funds to carry out basic and necessary functions of government. But for now I oppose efforts to increase taxes while so much waste is going on.

Originally posted by christina-66
reply to post by something wicked

 

I know it's the German state's system but it is German Bishops who initiated this action...and the Pope who ratified it. I have to disagree with you and say that this really is therefore a Catholic issue.

No, that isn't the case. It's not a Catholic issue, but charles1952 has put it much more eloquently than I have a few posts before this one. This isn't even a German issue - you know that 'Church tax' exists in many mainland European countries? It's common for the Catholic Church to take the heat with such things because the Catholic Church is seen as an easier target than other faiths these days, but do you not think for a moment that the other faiths also have to face up to how to manage this level of governmental intrusion? Some may say that this is a fair way to say that religious properties receive maintenance from the state dependent on the level of subscription they receive - who knows, maybe there is actually some logic to that.

Oh, and someone did ask if this was done in America? Well, technically anyone who is a subscriber to the Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter day Saints does as they agree to relinquish a percentage of their net income to the Church - I'm not sure if it matters whether it is via the government or not, you still get no say on how it is spent.

Any church that exiles or ex communicates a person that also says they are to forgive is not a true christian church. Any religion that does the same is not a god like religion. Using this as a reference it is pretty easy to determine who to believe in. God is supposed to be all about forgiveness and love. Even the Amish need to be reminded of this when they Shun a member.

reply to post by christina-66


Does it say how much the tax is? I get a letter from the church I attend (for Christmas?) usually saying something like based on their info I should be donating a minimum of $550 a year. They even include a convenient letter to put my check in.

Some people are really in for surprise when they get to heaven.

reply to post by christina-66


That's very christian of them. I guess deep down, they're like every other business. Don't pay get no service.

I have a problem with them being tax exempt. They still use city services yet don't have to pay property taxes, so the rest of us have to foot the bill. In the mean time, they can collect their daily donations, collect money from weekly bingo nights, hold raffles and casino nights, not to mention church sponsored spaghetti dinners. In the mean time, priests are living high on the hog and churches are being remodeled all the time.

Originally posted by WeRpeons
reply to post by christina-66

 

That's very christian of them. I guess deep down, they're like every other business. Don't pay get no service.

I have a problem with them being tax exempt. They still use city services yet don't have to pay property taxes, so the rest of us have to foot the bill. In the mean time, they can collect their daily donations, collect money from weekly bingo nights, hold raffles and casino nights, not to mention church sponsored spaghetti dinners. In the mean time, priests are living high on the hog and churches are being remodeled all the time.

Sigh....... it may be worth having a look at how some European governments work. This is not an issue with any particular faith, it's how the secular government taxes each and every faith. There is more info on this subject on wiki if you would prefer fact rather than a media article that is taking a very biased view on this.......

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by christina-66

 

Does it say how much the tax is? I get a letter from the church I attend (for Christmas?) usually saying something like based on their info I should be donating a minimum of $550 a year. They even include a convenient letter to put my check in.

My baptist church did that to my mom after a new young pastor took over. We didn't have much disposable income and my parents could not even afford to get me braces even on a payment plan. But they wanted what little we had. We got enough sermons that said our relationship with Jesus seemed to depend on it.

Anyway my mom was shocked and appalled since my dad never went to church with us, so how would they know what our means were? She stopped going then I quit too due to my own problems with the youth pastor stalking me. About ten years later I met a woman who happened to attend the church after I left it and she told me the pastor was caught embezzling and made a tearful confession to the congregation.

No wonder he could afford several fancy new cars all the time while my mom drove a used car that would stall out going over puddles. My mom regrets every tithe she ever made and wishes she had given directly to the poor instead.

We went back to my mom's original church, which we eventually left due to odd conduct by that pastor as well, that actually pitted some members of my moms family against others.

I've not been a member of a church since, despite pressure from my husband's catholic family. I may convert to Catholicism someday, because at the basic community parish level of it, much of Catholicism resonates with me. It's the top level and its hoarding of wealth and power and knowledge that I have trouble with. It all seems contrary to the example of Jesus.

I believe there are churches out there that do a world of good works. I have friends whose churches or synagogues or mosques helped them through difficult times, so as with secular charitable organizations, I think a case can be made for keeping them tax exempt. But this case in Germany is not what we are talking about with US churches and tax laws. This case in Germany seems rather alien to our American concept of the relationship between church and state and so I'm really struggling to understand what's going on. It is that alien to me to see a government collecting a tax for a religion or implementing a tax on religion. I dont know which Germany is doing.

reply to post by something wicked


Ahh, some illumination, thank you. Thus should help us stay on topic better. What a fascinating look at how some of modern laws have very ancient roots.

If they need there's a lot of empty catholic churches here in the US to move into. The one across the street the city took over for offices

reply to post by christina-66


Now who was it that said the church isn't all about the money? I know George Carlin did an excellent stand up piece on the church money and taxes in his Dysfunctional World tour ;-)

Cheers - Dave

reply to post by christina-66

Despite this church levy being optional, at the behest of German Bishops and with the approval of the Pope, Germans who do not pay will be refused the right to be members of a congregation, take communion, become God-parents or even to have a religious funeral.

This is completely unbiblical. Only Messiah can excommunicate, not some wierdo wearing a Dagon fish hat with a God complex.

Good time to join the protestant movement, they can throw out all those irrelevant rituals. Communion doesn't save you, thats just a ritual of remembrance and is not even needed for salvation. No protestant preacher would deny a fellow believer of a christian burial. Looks like Rome is starting to show it's true colors: gold and silver with alot of the scarlet and purple the Whore of Babylon wears.

people aren't really understanding whats happening.

the Catholic Church is threatening to excommunicate people who declare they are not catholics to avoid paying a tax that the state is imposing on them.

it is akin to denying God to avoid paying a tax.

it is possible that the enemies of the church in germany are purposely imposing this tax in the Churches name to persecute Catholics and Christians.

the Catholic Church has no authority to impose taxes on citizens in another country. it is the german parliament that has tax powers.

by saying you have to deny Christs Church to avoid having 8% of your income tax go to your church is only someone that the enemies of God would think of. possibly the doings of the illuminati or others who worship evil forces.

Jesus is once again right, give to caesar what is caesars and give to God what is Gods.

if someone told me i have to deny Jesus so i can avoid paying 8% tax, i would reply screw the 8%, take it all if you want, you're not going to trick me so easily.

this whole scheme is diabolical. it is also the law that the Catholic Church take this tax money.

people want to deny God and the existence of the devil. well, here is satans work and the ones that follow him and what Jesus meant when he said the world the belongs to the satan and you can't serve two masters.

the whole thing is to make you choose, to deny God and Jesus.

they control humanity with money. pure and simple.

reply to post by randomname

the Catholic Church is threatening to excommunicate people who declare they are not catholics to avoid paying a tax that the state is imposing on them.

it is akin to denying God to avoid paying a tax.

it is possible that the enemies of the church in germany are purposely imposing this tax in the Churches name to persecute Catholics and Christians.

the Catholic Church has no authority to impose taxes on citizens in another country. it is the german parliament that has tax powers.

by saying you have to deny Christs Church to avoid having 8% of your income tax go to your church is only someone that the enemies of God would think of. possibly the doings of the illuminati or others who worship evil forces

Ok so you're not catholic because you don't want to pay a tax, who cares? Saying you're not catholic is nowhere near denying God to keep from shelling out money. God doesn't want your money nor does he need it, what he wants you to do is make your offerings in kindness, compassion and mercy to the poor, needy, widows and orphans. Christianity is a spiritual brotherhood not a club you pay dues to so you can stay a member in order to get your weekly Jesus cookie.

i'm not saying you're not catholic if you don't pay a tax, i'm saying some people are denying Christ's Church publicly and legally by signing documents to that fact, to avoid paying a tax.

if you don't want to pay the tax don't, but don't deny Christ's church to do so.

then instead of denying your faith, you will be persecuted for it.

they'll charge you for tax evasion and threaten to put you in jail.

its the german government forcing them to pay that tax, not the Catholic Church.

the german people should get mad and lay blame on where it belongs and who has authority to impose taxes.
their politicians.

reply to post by FlyersFan


From your own link

In a landmark ruling, a German court has upheld the right of Catholics in Germany to refuse to pay church tax but remain members of the Catholic church.

The judgement of the Administrative Court in Freiburg of July 15 dismissed the case brought by the Catholic church against Staufen-im-Breisgau, which, as the hometown of Hartmut Zapp, had certified his unorthodox application to leave the church.

So....it was the Catholic church which raised the legal action against a fella who, albeit he had stopped paying the tax, wanted to continue to practice as a Catholic

In Germany, Protestant and Catholic churches are at once denominations and legal statutory bodies. In the latter capacity, the churches have tax-raising powers. The state collects the tax and passes it on to the churches, receiving a payment for this service. The sole way of avoiding church tax is formally to leave one’s church.

Zapp added a rider to his formal declaration saying that he was only leaving the Roman Catholic church as a statutory body under German law. His rider signaled his intention to continue as a member of the church as a community of faith. He was thus publicly resisting the automatic excommunication incurred as a result of completing the formal procedure.

The tax is not retained by the state, they do take an administrative charge. And far from becoming impoverished....

For decades, the Catholic church in Germany has been accustomed to dizzying wealth underpinned by tax revenues: $61 billion in from 1998 to 2007, with $6.5 billion in the year 2007 alone.

And the origin of the churches' authority to levy tax as a statutory body?

....the provisions in the 1933 Reich Concordat, which allows the church to levy the tax.

www.newadvent.org...


That would be the same year that Hitler became Germany's Chancellor.

WOW!!!

And the Germans et al haven't sorted this abominable practice and gross breach of privacy out yet? WOW!!!

Originally posted by seen2much
The above comment represents an old form of Christianity pre-dating the Pope and Luther. People should research Gnosticism, the Evionim and early Christianity.

I've never heard of the Evionims. I did a quick search and came upon a very interesting site explaining them.

ebionim.org...

Thank you for mentioning them. It was a fascinating read!

reply to post by christina-66


I think you have better reading comprehension skills than I do in this matter. You broke it down well. Now I'm seeing this from the angle you pointed out and agree it looks like the Catholic Church is trying to shut a loophole that the German government is willing to leave open.

It is not denying Christ or Christian faith to try and avoid this tax. It may be denying a specific denomination, though. But all I can say is if I were German, this Christian lady would not be paying any tax because I'm not a member of any congregation. It must also be pointed out that not every Christian recognizes any particular church as Christ's church. We as Christians are not one homogenous entity that thinks as one on the subject.

Tithing is a biblical principle to ensure support of the people who minister and do Christ's work for their fellow man. If not a member of a church, tithing can be direct charity to the poor as you minister directly yourself in lieu of supporting others ministering on your behalf. But it's supposed to be voluntary and each according to their means. Ten percent is a guide, but it's understood and even part of a scriptural example that ten percent to a person of poor or modest means is a bigger sacrifice than ten percent of a rich person's income, and therefore even more exalted and blessed as far as tithes go. There will be times ten percent is simply not affordable to some people. But that does not mean they deserve excommunication or withholding of fellowship. In that case, it's supposed to be understood maybe that person or family needs a helping hand from those in the congregation who are better off.

This tax just seems unbiblical to me and I'm disappointed but not shocked that a church would zealously support it.