Catholics to exclude dodgers of church tax

Originally posted by charles1952
There is a little more to this story than we see at first glance. The "tax" is collected by the state, under their laws. It is not only for Catholics, but identified members of certain religions including Judaism.

Exactly. It's a GERMAN thing. Not a CATHOLIC thing.

Originally posted by christina-66
Wasn't it this kind of conduct that caused the Reformation in the first place???

That's the popular sugar-coated story that the protestants have showered upon the world. But in fact, there was much more than that going on with Martin Luther. He had psychological issues and a problem containing himself sexually. His famous quote ... "if the wife is unwilling, then take the maid" ... means that he approved adultry and he approved of raping the female hired help. He was a well known hypochondriac and probably had more than one neurosis . And as we can see by his 'On Jews and their Lies' .. he was a hateful man . Martin Luther found that he couldn't follow the rules in the bible ... so he changed the bible to suit himself. The protestants like to revere him as having gotten up in the face of the pope for the good of everyone, but the truth is, Martin Luther couldn't live up to the standards of the bible and of the Church .. so he lowered the standards and started his own religion . Right or wrong .. that's what he did and he used indulgences as the excuse.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
Catholicism has Nothing to do with real Christianity

:shk: Face it. The Catholic church is the church that put the bible together.
Without the Catholic church, there would be no Christianity in the world today.
And Catholics are just as much 'christian' as Lutherans or Baptists or Episcopalians.
Each group has their 'issues'. Each group has their own interpretation of Christianity.
That doesn't make any of them 'not Christian'. It just makes them different from
each other.

there are tons of biblical and historical evidence to prove you guys

I could easily make the bible say anything I want. I could make God look like a devil in disguise. I could make the Jews look like saints or like demons. Whatever my mood is. It's very easy to cherry pick scripture.

Indeed, one can take anything and make it say what you want. That is the theological method: get an idea then pick out the verses that suit you and contort the rest that don't.

Anyway, good luck to Germany. I hope they settle the matter, but the intrusion seems needless. Its OK the civilized nonbelievers will be damned and the sinful believers will enter paradise -- god is truly amazing. I thought the Germans were above this nonesense, after all they gave us Higher Criticism.

THE REST OF THE STORY .. not told by the opening post ..

NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER

In a landmark ruling, a German court has upheld the right of Catholics in Germany to refuse to pay church tax but remain members of the Catholic church.

The judgement of the Administrative Court in Freiburg of July 15 dismissed the case brought by the Catholic church against Staufen-im-Breisgau, which, as the hometown of Hartmut Zapp, had certified his unorthodox application to leave the church.

The Catholic church in Germany has been fighting this 'tax'. So for the OP to say that the pope is just going along with it and supporting it .. that's wrong.

The Germany government is making people pay to pray. They want money from the church donations. They are putting churches .. not just the Catholic church but all churches .. out of business. The churches have no choice but to follow the rule of law or everyone will be put in jail. Blame the Germany government and their greed to get their hands on church donation money.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by charles1952
There is a little more to this story than we see at first glance. The "tax" is collected by the state, under their laws. It is not only for Catholics, but identified members of certain religions including Judaism.

Exactly. It's a GERMAN thing. Not a CATHOLIC thing.

Originally posted by christina-66
Wasn't it this kind of conduct that caused the Reformation in the first place???

That's the popular sugar-coated story that the protestants have showered upon the world. But in fact, there was much more than that going on with Martin Luther. He had psychological issues and a problem containing himself sexually. His famous quote ... "if the wife is unwilling, then take the maid" ... means that he approved adultry and he approved of raping the female hired help. He was a well known hypochondriac and probably had more than one neurosis . And as we can see by his 'On Jews and their Lies' .. he was a hateful man . Martin Luther found that he couldn't follow the rules in the bible ... so he changed the bible to suit himself. The protestants like to revere him as having gotten up in the face of the pope for the good of everyone, but the truth is, Martin Luther couldn't live up to the standards of the bible and of the Church .. so he lowered the standards and started his own religion . Right or wrong .. that's what he did and he used indulgences as the excuse.


You are totally right about Luther. It is amazing to see not only the true roots of Christianity but of protestant Christianity in particular. Luther's supporters had land and taxes in mind as well as now! As it was in the beginning so shall it be in the end......

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
Can you Catholics see now that there is something really wrong with the church you belong to?

Study history. The Roman Catholic church was created out of pagan influence coupled with a bastardized form of Christianity by the Roman rulers so they could more effectively control the masses.

Catholicism has Nothing to do with real Christianity !

You have to go back to the New testament and see how Christians were really made with the commands of Jesus telling how to do this at the end of each Gospel and then in the book of Acts telling how the Apostles carried out Jesus commands of conversion. This is as far from anything the Catholics believe, it's night and day.

Point is, there are tons of biblical and historical evidence to prove you guys are following a false spiritual leader and he's pulling you down into Hell with him. This news above is just the tip of the iceberg - it's going to get much worse so get out and find a true Christian religion while you can.

edit on 24-9-2012 by JohnPhoenix because: sp

Jesus also said not to worship GOD or use his name in vein, and not to build symbols representing GOD or jesus, so why even look for a "True" religion, (true religion? what does that even mean?) Or for a church for that matter, since the body is a temple, and we are all GODS occupying them.

And damn right these people have the right to say no, when in the world did the churches decide that GOD needs taxes in the first place?

The above comment represents an old form of Christianity pre-dating the Pope and Luther. People should research Gnosticism, the Evionim and early Christianity.

Originally posted by XaniMatriX
And damn right these people have the right to say no, when in the world did the churches decide that GOD needs taxes in the first place?

Just to reclarify. Judging by the original article, this seems to be a tax imposed by the secular authority, and not by the Church. Although I am stilled stumped by the Catholic Church's stance on the topic. Just unclear, but there was a article posted later in the thread stating that the church tried fighting it in the courts. So who knows what their official position is? With that said, God is not asking for the taxes, but the benevolent government of Germany. This is a civil matter that has turned into a religious one by the government imposing a tax associated with religion. It is really creepy.

reply to post by FlyersFan


I am neither Catholic or Protestant. I am no fan of organised religion - hypocrisy appears to be common to them all. I heard this story in the wee small hours on the world service and checked it out this morning. The main news reports confirmed the story I heard last night.

A German member has posted a link on this thread which explains the formalities for German/Austrians/Swiss citizens to leave the church. This church tax would appear to be a very old practice.

I am more inclined to agree with the poster above who recommends investigation of the Gnostic texts.

All of Luther's failings (who I know little about save a psychological analysis of him as a young man that I read many moons ago) do not detract from the fact that protestantism occurred and gained popularity because the catholic church was conducting itself appallingly.

Is the Catholic church actually enforcing this? Does the German government issue papers with picture ID that will be checked at the church doors now? Otherwise its like wiping all the Catholics off the map in Germany, they are still there but officially no one knows where they are.

reply to post by Jakes51



My fault indeed, and yes, very creepy to know that if you believe in something, you pay for it, and if you don't, then you cannot practice your beliefs, and the creepiest is that people actually listen to these lunatics, if the people and the church comply with the authority on this, now that would be scary.

If i were them, i would just continue like nothing happened and push the political side of it somewhere in the dark corner of the mind, and just because of the reaction of political members and authority on this shows exactly what those peoples intentions are, rob rob rob and rape for good measures at the end.

It's time to end the tax-free status of religious institutions. They've had a free ride for far too long. And in these times of fiscal uncertainty, governments could sure use the income.

Its DEMONIC.

What Catholics world wide need to do, is meet up an form an alternative similar Catholic Church, because its very hard to change songs, as I found when I left it, Iliked those songs. Because when you're indoctrinated a Catholic its hard to leave period. but even I knew that I could not attend a Church without women priests and married priests and that prohibited birth control and needed alot of overhaul. I could never support their crime against humanity.

But I will point out we already have a Church like that, in Canada, for example. It's called the Anglican. And when you go to an Anglican Church, as I did when I left, for a few years, half the congregation is protestant and believes that way, and half the congregation are ex Catholics. You know the kind that know the angels and saints can intercede with Goodness/Love for us, well they are also part of the Whole Family of Goodness part, and yeah. I was lucky when I left, for the Anglican minister was a Catholic as a Child, and he also didn't like being a Church minister, he was a university professor and was filling in a need for a while. But we met, and he explained when a minister comes the congregation members ususally meet with them and the first question is, do you call yourself Minister so and so, or Father so an so, he was Father so and so, so we had references to Mary quite a bit.

All in all, DONT STAY IN AN EVIL CHURCH, BUT I DON'T RECOMMEND GIVING UP YOUR FAITH WITH NWO AND ALL. NEVER GIVE THE CREEPS AT THE TOP WHAT THEY WANT.

Also the Pope and Bishops need a really huge amount of mail and need dumptruck full of nasty letters telling them off on a regular basis. So do our politicians. Oh did you know you could phone the bishops, and talk for over an hour and really really bug them.

Really make those demonic traitors to humanities life difficult because when you're a dark path you really need a helping hand to turn it around. Those poor guys are a hell of a lot of need.

They need to have people lecture them for hours on love and goodness in huge crowds on a permanent basis.

But leave the Church. You cannot be in a satanic church run by anyone serving Mammoth and abusing Christs example of Love and Goodness.

edit to add: The United Church is one of my favorites, they have a really high human rights standard and women ministers and I consider it child abuse to take your children to any misogyny church whether you have boys or girls. I don't want my boys raised to be creeps. But some Catholics need a transition to a similar Church first and many attend the Anglican with similar mass, so its often the easier transition. But I like United Church policies better.

Money is slavery and you don't give the money to feed the world to the Church's, you feed the world instead and get land for eco farms in the the third and the homeless in your communities, and set up yurts, and cob homes, homes on wheels.

reply to post by KaiserSoze


A true christian religion.....doesn't exist....we have a relationship, it's not even near religion.....but we follow the written word, that means someone has to read it all, or almost all of the Scriptures. They will amaze.

reply to post by TheComte


I admit to having said the same thing on occasion, but upon further reflection, as I struggle to feed my family GMO free on a budget strained by heavy taxes, I say screw the government. In these times of fiscal uncertainty people sure could use keeping the money they earned on their depressed wages in their own pocket. No matter who the tax is levied on, ultimately the money comes right out we the people's pockets. We are taxed for every thing we do except maybe having sex, why would anyone want another damn tax even on something they particularly dislike, just so the oppressors can get more powerful? That's how we ended up strangling under so many taxes, somebody found something like smoking disagreeable so they supported taxing the heck out of those who partake. I personally loathe smoking and loathe some religions, but I loathe controlling people's behavior via taxation even more.

As for this situation in Germany, I'm shocked to learn of it. It's very effed up. Even though I just ranted against taxing churches, I could better understand doing that, than directly having people account for their religious affiliation and taxing them on it. It's a penalty for having a religion. I know some here would applaud that. I'm not a fan of organized religion myself but I'm glad we have the system here in USA that we do, keeping religion largely a private matter, with the occasional ceremonial acknowledgement of it. Unfortunately it means we have to tolerate some obvious rackets...cough cough...Xenu...but we have freedom of religion and when need be, freedom from religion.

reply to post by SheeplFlavoredAgain


What's wrong with making churches pay property tax just like everyone else?

How is this oppressing you in any way?

reply to post by TheComte


Church's are supported by teh congregation with AFTER TAX DOLLARS. And they are oversupported already. No one has to pay a penny to go to church its a contribution. Its freely given.

The Government has zero right to any property tax to begin with. We co-own earth and that in itself is EVIL BEYOND, that people allow slavery and homelessness and abuse. If everyone was like me, we'd be living in eutopia years ago. And Im wiling to die for what is right, not kill mind you, but would stand up in any group, that is large enough to change things, but not to martyr myself for a bunch of heartless confused minions for the dark side who support inequality.

This tax is not about property tax, its about FORCING PEOPLE TO PAY TITHES TO THE CHURCH.

Again the money donated is after tax dollars. And property tax is peanuts, compared to the tithing. A few thousand a year. We're talking about buying your position in Church by giving to the Church a huge chunk of your income that first of all belongs to you, for most people are not well off, and second of all to the world feeding the poor.

The CHurch's need to pour out their money into eco farms and equality world wide, wells, water solution.

But I suspect they use congregation moneys to support NWO and mercenaries.

But the reason Church's don't pay property tax is so that you can't charge people to attend it.

You know, religions should be free and for all people equally. I don't believe in charging any taxes to any religion, but then I don't believe in money or bartering to begin with.

From everything I can see, the Church is playing along with the NWO themes, and are very corrupt at the top.

Humanity has given so much in charities every year, that every few years they've pretty well equalized the world and provided enough funds to establish eco farms and running water, off grid electricity and aquaponics for every man, woman and child on this planet.

So where is the money really going?

Is it propping up corruption?

I've been told that if we all went on a general strike, the majority in every country and refused to sit back down until we had the Venus Project, freedom and equality and abundance world wide with no corruption and no kings at the top, people power instead, that they would never step down.

So that means we cant change it, that means we need to ask for help under the stars of the Family above, Love and Goodness/God and also, all the positive cosmic citizens to come in and help free and progress this school.

BUT, under the current scenario, there is a plan apparently to make the Church turn into the beast and do away with it.

Not on my watch. The Church is not the corrupt leaders, its the people. Our bodies are the temples indwelling the Light and Soul, and Holy Spirit/Source as well.

And people actually like their Church's and their children being taught real values, not just video game values.

So, we need to reform the Church's to be for the people, equal and like unto Christ's ministry and the early Christians.

But they'll all be different, for no two people think alike.

But I don't recommend giving NWO what it wants, but stand up and take back the night.

People can't be forced to give money either, and also they should darn well make sure the money is actually helping the poor and providing, food, eco farms, water solutions and aquaponics world wide, and when they uncover the blocks to this, (AND THERE ARE MAJOR ONES), then they need to tackle the corrupt governments and the corrupt corporations that preventing abundance for all. And keeping this starvation in place.

Because the truth is, if you did donate cheap land in abundance in third world, (remember the dollar buys a lot more there), and had water, off grid energies, food, etc, They Would Shut Them Down, Burn Them Down and Kill everyone.

They don't want pockets of prosperity growing bigger, with more and more seeing this and wanting real solutions. That's why Rwanda happened, and they killed the middle class group there. Can't shine that light.

And if your non profit organizations aren't corrupt enough and really do good, they would imprison, set up or target the people here.

People really know whats going on, and make sure their contributions are accomplishing real solutions that help many people, not just bandaids that make them look good.

And uncover and then tackle fully head on with bullhorns, the real blocks that will prevent that.

No, you can't force people to pay money to attend. And as far as the money being misused, well that also requires real people waking up and insisting changes occur.

Or start a reformed Catholic type church with female married priest an option, no inequality, that really makes a difference in the world.

reply to post by christina-66


I don´t see the news/problem.
You cannot fail to pay church tax in Germany. It is not possible. Church Tax is a % of your loan tax. The only way to opt out is to leave the church. They can´t excommunicate me when I already left before law ;-) And when they do, well I think GOD will not be amused by this greedy move.

I think there's a lot of confusion on what the church tax is. It's a Tax collected by the state/country, and then payed to the church minus administrative fees.

So while yes, the countries do benefit from the tax, it's still a tax imposed by the church but collect by the state/country.

The things that comes with one's religious belief, marriage death rights etc, shouldn't be based on how much you donate to the church. I can see a pastor charging for his time if you're not part of his church though.

So let me get this straight. The German gov is trying to get some more money from people by taxing their faith. The only way to opt out of this is to say that you are not of that faith. If you deny that faith, then why would you fear being excomunitcated? Being Catholic, I know that perjury is a sin. Taking an oath that you are not Catholic and then expecting to take communion with the Church confounds me. I believe that German Catholics need to start demonstrating in the street against this tax instead of denying their faith and tell the German gov to shove it.

Almost everybody in this thread jumped on the bandwagon that is here at ATS that the Catholic Church is always to blame, even in this situation where it has been proven that the Catholic Church is actually fighting with the German gov AGAINST this tax as they feel its unfair and puts its members of the congregration in an unfortunate spot. I think this just goes to show the hatred for the Church because of some of its flawed ways in the past and the present. Its actually sad that people cant look at the individual issues of something before they cast judgement and instead see "Catholic..." and immediately go to railing against us.