Wealthy Welfare...UK to Freeze Benefits as Inflation Bites?

The current government seems to be doing its best not to make cuts while they are in power. If you ask me it's a brilliant idea..

I don't think they will cut benefits.. A freeze?? maybe...

We were stuck in a vicious circle of Labour spending and Conservative wealth creation.

The conservatives while in power would bring the country back to life then Labour would come in the next term and spend it all and bankrupt us.

Of course its the political party that takes power after the spending that takes all the blame for it, because people are too stupid to see the truth.

This time Labour will be left with the task of fixing it and it will be Labour that finally gets the blame..

Good plan, I love it.

These are only plans and it isn't even a freeze that is being promoted, but rather cutting the link to inflation and instead linking them to rises in average earnings.

To be honest, as someone who hasn't had a pay rise in 3 years despite inflation shooting up, I can understand this. While workers have seen their relative take home decreasing due to inflation, those on benefits have seen their relative income keep pace with inflation, which a lot of people actually think is unfair.

There are also nuances to the plans to limit the "freeze" to those of working age only and not to affect the disabled or elderly. Here is a link to a Guardian article, so it can't be accused of being pro-Tory and it covers the proposals quite well

By freeze they mean no cost of living increase for two years right, not that they're going to stop them?

In the US SSI didn't get an increase for 2 years, last one was 2009, and then it was increased 3.6% this year.
Which btw does not cover the last 3 years increase in prices due to inflation. So in reality it didn't increase, it was cut.

There's no propaganda in that report is there - "The millionaire George Osborne..."

In other words this rich man is about to punish the poor - how unfair.

Reminds me of Mrs Merton talking to Debbie Magee - "So Debbie, what first attracted you to the millionaire Paul Daniels?"

There are too many people in this country deciding to not bother working and live off the state, or rather the backs of other hard working people.

Unfortunately there are some in my own family and I despise them.

Of course there are many faults with our benefit system and whilst it has become a lifestyle choice for some I assure you that it can also be most unfair on many new claimants who find it very hard to receive any payments.
The benefit system needs a radical overhaul.

But vindicating freezing benefit payments in accordance with the governments austerity cuts is just another step closer to Cameron's goal of dismantling the whole Welfare System.
Yes, it will make a saving - but a very small one - in fact almost negligible in the grander scale of things.

Clegg has recently announced his proposals for a 'wealth tax'.
More popularist policies from a lame duck leader who knows that his party's brief taste of power will come to an end at the next election.
A 'wealth tax' as he proposes wouldn't raise that much really.
What we do need is a major clampdown on the £120billion this country misses out on through tax evasion and tax avoidance by the highest earners - all with apparent impugnity.
The government would rather focus on the £2billion that benefit fraud costs this country and use deflection tactics like this proposed 'wealth tax' which in reality amounts to very little.

It's revealing that under this 'we're all in it together' Prime Minister the gap between the wealthy elite, who just happen to make up the bulk of all of our politicians and business leaders, and the even the average working man is widening at an alarming rate - quite clearly we aren't all in it together.

And I personally find it quite galling that all this moralising and lecturing comes from a group of people who systematically embezzled literally thousands of taxpayers money for years without the slightest concern or regard.
Some of the worst offenders we now see being rewarded with high profile positions within Camerons cabinet.

I understand and agree that this country could not continue wasting money as it was but these austerity cuts target the weakest and poorest within society whilst the wealthiest find it pretty much painless.
Yes, we need urgent and radical reform of the benefit system and the NHS - but this is excessive without addressing core issues and problems.

We need to be investing money back into this country's infrastructure instead of allowing the vast majority of money to be syphoned off by foreign companies or an already obscenely wealthy elite.

Apologies for yet another rant like post - it has been a long day, and not the best.

reply to post by Freeborn


Yes Freeborn you have hit it bang on the head. 120 billion tax evasion by the riches people in our society. Yet the poorest have to take the brunt of the cuts. The benifits system was the reward us plebs got, for dying in the trenches. In wars created by the banksters. Other people got independance and others, were even given some one elses land. But we brits, were rewarded with a health servise and free schools. The gas water and electric companys were owned by us. Until they decided to take it back and sell it to who ever they could get the most money from. The problems in this country were caused by the the govt, not the people. So why the hell should we have to bite the bullet?

reply to post by jude11


maybe it will force those rich millionaires to give their employees a raise!!! just so they can eat and have a roof over their head...

oh, wait a minute, the employers aren't really the rich millionaires, are they, they are the small struggling small business owners who are faltering for the same reason as thier employees are....rising inflation is cutting into their profit...

rising inflation because the reserve banks have been working overtime pumping god only knows how much money out to the banks, so that those millionaires can remain millionaires!!!

at least that is how I see it in the US....

maybe great britain is different and yous are not as screwed???

Originally posted by Freeborn
What we do need is a major clampdown on the £120billion this country misses out on through tax evasion and tax avoidance by the highest earners - all with apparent impugnity.
The government would rather focus on the £2billion that benefit fraud costs this country and use deflection tactics like this proposed 'wealth tax' which in reality amounts to very little.

It's revealing that under this 'we're all in it together' Prime Minister the gap between the wealthy elite, who just happen to make up the bulk of all of our politicians and business leaders, and the even the average working man is widening at an alarming rate - quite clearly we aren't all in it together.

And I personally find it quite galling that all this moralising and lecturing comes from a group of people who systematically embezzled literally thousands of taxpayers money for years without the slightest concern or regard.
Some of the worst offenders we now see being rewarded with high profile positions within Camerons cabinet.

I absolutely agree with everything you've said.

I also think there needs to be some reform of the social welfare system though, if for no other reason than to placate many who see it is a vastly unfair. It is a issue of social tension, and that will probably grow. We've all heard Cameron attack those on benefits whenever he has the chance, almost reluctantly adding the rider that "not all claimants" are scroungers.

Unfortunately, many listen to his BS and see the welfare system as constantly abused by the majority of people.

This would be partially solved if they changed the system to one of tokens or vouchers. We all have National Insurance cards, so why can't they be developed to include a weekly allocation of food?

My problem is that there is little motivation to get people out there looking for work while they are given cash to do with as they please. The social welfare system is supposed to be for emergency aid, temporary and for essentials. But I regularly see people who claim these benefits drinking in the street, smoking, going out every weekend... This is because they live off of the kindness of families too for everything else, or they're involved in criminality. If all they had access to was what they actually need to live, they would have to work for their luxuries.

I'll agree that there needs to be some effort put into creating jobs too. That goes without saying. There are a lot of people who simply cannot find a job. But there are also a hell of a lot of people who refuse to do a job because they think it's below them.

I have a family member who manages to find agency work when he actually NEEDS money. He's one of those who only does it when he really wants something though. He'll work for three or four shifts, then he'll stop, sit back and wait for his pay. He'll do whatever he wants to do with the money and be back claiming benefits again until he decides he wants another gadget or to repaint his bike. Then he'll be back begging an agency to give him another chance - rinse and repeat.

If all he could do with his benefits is buy actual food, he would be out there working right now, because there are a lot of other things that he wouldn't be able to get.

Anyway, I'll climb down off my soap box now

reply to post by detachedindividual

We've all heard Cameron attack those on benefits whenever he has the chance, almost reluctantly adding the rider that "not all claimants" are scroungers.

And that gradually seeps into the public consciousness - but the reality is somewhat different.

There are many vagaries and loopholes in the benefit system which far too many exploit thus enabling them to choose benefits as a lifestyle choice.
And most of these people have paid very little, if anything, into the benefit system.

But I know many people who receive little or no assisitance despite paying into the system for years and the vast majority of claimants would much prefer to earn a living working.
Unfortunately the bankers, industrilaists and politicians have screwed this country up to such an extent that there are very jobs, especially those that pay an honest and fair wage.

This would be partially solved if they changed the system to one of tokens or vouchers. We all have National Insurance cards, so why can't they be developed to include a weekly allocation of food?

Got to disagree with you on this one - I personally would find that degrading and humiliating - and I haven't got a National Insurance Card.

I'll agree that there needs to be some effort put into creating jobs too.

Some effort?
That must be the priority!
Working for a living and earning a decent wage not only gives an individual a sense of self worth and self-esteem etc it also provides discernable income which is spent on various things thus stimulating growth etc - it's not hard at all.

Unfortunately there is an obsession with profit that enables the already obscenely wealthy elite to squirrel away even more wealth, mostly on the back of the hard graft of their employees.
I'm no naive idealist, I recognise that society needs to generate wealth and the need for employers and employees.
And I don't begrudge smaller employers their rewards for their endeavours.
It's the corporate whores / bankers etc who are bleeding this country dry.

The thing is, there is more than enough money generated in this country to make things better all round for all of us.
But the British people seem brainwashed into accepting that it's ok for a small minority to continue amassing grossly obscene amounts of wealth and to do relatively little with it.

As someone far more eloquent than me has said previously here on ATS, Britian needs a full system re-boot.

reply to post by jude11


This is BS but you know who's to blame?

The Scroungers who come here hoping to get benefits and live off the benefits like the Bulgarian Family who I read about recently.... she came with 3 children so got put up in a hostel until on bed flat came up but then another 6 kids came over and she needed a bigger house so she got one.... gets about £35,000 a year in benefits!!

These are the ones who need benefits stopped and all the others who come over.... once this is sorted, you will see a huge saving in benefits handouts!!

I see its a Millionaire who has come up with this proposal while he is most likely saving his cash up in an overseas account and not paying tax!!

Originally posted by TruthxIsxInxThexMist
reply to post by jude11

 

This is BS but you know who's to blame?

The Scroungers who come here hoping to get benefits and live off the benefits like the Bulgarian Family who I read about recently.... she came with 3 children so got put up in a hostel until on bed flat came up but then another 6 kids came over and she needed a bigger house so she got one.... gets about £35,000 a year in benefits!!

These are the ones who need benefits stopped and all the others who come over.... once this is sorted, you will see a huge saving in benefits handouts!!

edit on 24-9-2012 by TruthxIsxInxThexMist because: (no reason given)

Yeah thats right, lets blame the person pursuing a better life. Yes they should get a job and add to our economy but weigh it up in their eyes - Britain's giving it so they came and got it.

You are misdirecting your hate, my friend.

Our government is creating this, its them letting this happen. Nobody is stopping them from doing this - they welcome it and in turn create division of hate through the manipulation of the matter.

reply to post by Freeborn

As someone far more eloquent than me has said previously here on ATS, Britian needs a full system re-boot.

Every nation on the planet needs a full system reboot. Beginning with telling the reserve banks to go get fked.

reply to post by CthulhuMythos


you can blame Mrs Thacher for that, she decided the UK should be a service industry nation, (banking, tourism)
a really stupid woman at times, and her 'advisers'

I wrote a rather long and very detailed thread about the "welfare" (as you Americans call it) society and structure in the UK the other day. Some how I managed to erase it all, so I give up! Aha.

I think it's ridiculous that they just want to freeze benefits, any one who's been jobless for a little while knows full well the effects of inflation have had in regards to even the most basic commodities, such as phone boxes and bus fairs. 7 years ago it cost me 20p one way on the bus, today it costs £1.90. 5 years ago use of the BT phone box cost 20p today it's 60p. 5 years Ago, a bar of chocolate cost 30p, today they are 70p.

Doesn't sound like a lot at first does it? But that's not taking into account the gas bills consume 4 times as much as previously, as with electricity, and certainly not taking food and VAT inflation.

Many of us are below the poverty line, and that includes a majority of the working class.

So no. It's not good that they want to freeze benefits whilst inflation continues to rise, and this is coming from some one in work, but I know full well what it's like to stretch your budget to the limit just for the basics.

There is only one aspect I completely loath and detest about the social structures, and that's how they encourage and support teen parents. I mean, they encourage it!!!

I'm in an apprenticeship, as after over 200 applications it's the only place I heard back from, I have no choice in the matter. I earn £606 a month (I'm very lucky as most earn around 300). As from the end of the month I'll be renting a room from a stranger at £220 a month. By bus pass is £45 pm, my fathers funeral costs £25 per month, gas and electric, £40pm, food, £70pm (if I eat crap), phone 15pm, toiletries, £15 pm.... Leaving me £170 for non- necessities, don't suppose clothes fall into that category??? Aha.

So that's my life for the next 18 months. No hopes of driving, no holidays, no fancy nights out. Just rolling like a stone. Actually they ducked my pay for a week this month, due to being Ill, so I'll be lucky to cover all that.. Hmm.

Now... If I were 16 years old and up the duff, life would be treating me much better. I'd have my own flat, and at least £200 pw coming In.

I know, because that's the route all the girls I went to school took. They are loaded compared to me, and have somewhere to call home. They've never worked a day in their in lives, and live pretty darn comfortably, some even drive!!

It's like I'm fighting a loosing battle. I might just give up and join the club, any one want to make a baby? Ahaha.

reply to post by dawnstar


take a look at English history, those poor sod's have been screwed since 1066! some laws passed by William the bastard have yet to be repealed, "disturb a deer while it is feeding, you will be killed" nice one William!

Originally posted by n00bUK

Originally posted by TruthxIsxInxThexMist
reply to post by jude11

 

This is BS but you know who's to blame?

The Scroungers who come here hoping to get benefits and live off the benefits like the Bulgarian Family who I read about recently.... she came with 3 children so got put up in a hostel until on bed flat came up but then another 6 kids came over and she needed a bigger house so she got one.... gets about £35,000 a year in benefits!!

These are the ones who need benefits stopped and all the others who come over.... once this is sorted, you will see a huge saving in benefits handouts!!

edit on 24-9-2012 by TruthxIsxInxThexMist because: (no reason given)

Yeah thats right, lets blame the person pursuing a better life. Yes they should get a job and add to our economy but weigh it up in their eyes - Britain's giving it so they came and got it.

You are misdirecting your hate, my friend.

Our government is creating this, its them letting this happen. Nobody is stopping them from doing this - they welcome it and in turn create division of hate through the manipulation of the matter.

I agree with the pair of you.

It's no secret that if you are an immigrant (even better if your Asian) you will receive a lot more help from the British government than our home grown nationals would.

Some one in the housing department confided in me that Asian immigrants get first prioriy on the housing list, Leeds job centre advertises jobs for "minorities" only, and in MY job, we run the "back to work" program" helping people who have been job seekers for over 12 months find work. 90% of them are Asian immigrants and 30% cannot talk English, which can make my life hard aha.

As far as I'm concerned, I never venture from south Birmingham, because the north east is owned by Asians, and is not a pleasant or welcoming place for a 21 year old white girl.

Pakistani groups for instance are responsible for 80% of gang rape in the UK and ONLY target white girls, because they are forbidden to commit crimes against other Asians.

As I say, I hate this country And the government that ARE creating THIS society.

I can't wait to bloody leave.

reply to post by detachedindividual


Good answer there, agree with most of what you say (which may surprise you considering some of our sparring on other threads!).

Welfare should be paid in line with inflation to those that qualify. However, there really has been wide spread welfare fraud over the years. It isn't as bad as it was but it is still far worse than it should be. In theory, there should be plenty in the kitty to pay those that qualify. The reality though is that there isn't - this therefore tells its' own story.

My view is that those found guilty of benefit fraud should be banned from any welfare payments for a 10 year period. "Harsh" i hear some of you cry but that is exactly my point. Make it harsh on those found to cheat and the numbers of those willing to cheat will fall. No unemployment payment, no housing benefit, etc.

As an example, my sister is a housing manager with one of the UK's local authorities (nowhere near my location). She regularly has to go round collecting back rent (rent arrears) from tenants in heavily subsidised housing. She is permanently annoyed at the sheer numbers of people with new cars in the drive, going on holidays, new 40 plus inch tv's that claim they cannot afford to pay what they owe for cheap housing. I have to agree with her wholeheartedly - it makes me sick. Examples should be made - people should lose houses.

However, after that rant, may i just remind everyone that i actually support benefits for those entitled!

Originally posted by stumason
To be honest, as someone who hasn't had a pay rise in 3 years despite inflation shooting up, I can understand this. While workers have seen their relative take home decreasing due to inflation, those on benefits have seen their relative income keep pace with inflation, which a lot of people actually think is unfair.

As a hard working individual i can certainly see how easy it is to feel (or be manipulated to feel) this way. But this is the wrong argument to use, unless you never want your wage to rise.

You are arguing for other people to suffer because you are suffering....

What you should be arguing is for your wage to rise - for your (and everyone else's) wage to be tied to inflation. Not for the poor's to be untied from inflation and set adrift like a mob hungry people in an adjacent lifeboat.

You're falling for the divide & conquer strategy.

The TPTB, supported by the MSN give us these divisive scenarios: That the poor are getting too good a deal, while the hard working have to suffer - that it's not fair and the poor's suffering should increase as we do. And what do you know, there's blood lust and spite for the poor....

In the movies there's always a greedy, selfish and scared guy who builds contempt for the needy - raises a mob to demand this burden on rations in the adjacent lifeboat be set adrift. Don't be one of that mob - tell the bad guy he's wrong, because sure enough that bad guy always has a secret stash of rations hidden for himself, which could mean survival for everyone.

You're playing into their hands. Don't play their game. Untying welfare from inflation will make the poor poorer (in real hand-to-mouth terms).

We should reply "NO…! Be fairer to the hard working and tie wages to inflation."

For the vast majority who do not abuse the system, welfare allows them to just scrape by. For those arguing that this is not a 'cut' in welfare - just a cut-in-ties from inflation - you do not understand.

Untying welfare from inflation IS a cut in welfare, since inflation will continue to raise the basic cost of living, whilst welfare will not rise at the same rate, if any at all (if it were to rise at the same rate, then there would be no point in this proposal).

Welfare is calculated to just about meet the most basic living standards in the UK. Since those standards are directly tied to inflation, if this policy goes ahead it will mean welfare can no longer support the most basic living standard.

...Well, if you thought the 2011 riots were bad, just wait 'til this welfare-cut begins to bite - i would not like to be in the vicinity.

It's almost as if TPTB want a situation that requires Martial Law.... Hmmm!

Well at least the UK doesn't have FEMA camps to stash the poor in... Oh wait a minute!!!

reply to post by Flavian


I think its also key to remember that welfare fraud has been overly exaggerted by the government since the recession.

Blame the evil dole dossers your country has no money!

"Benefir fraud, we're one step ahead of you, exspect a knock on your door at any second!!"

Muahahaha.

Yea, never mind those pesky bankers and MPs that rob MILLIONS each year, and get off scott free! Slap 14 months jail time to those who scammed £20 quid or for robbing a chocolate bar!! Aha. Makes me laugh.

I nicked £50 quid off them last year, just changed a few dates round on my "starting work when?" Form.

I'm not guilty. I payed 7 times more in taxes the same year than what I took of them, and I'm paying a funeral.

Big woop. I've got to pay it back of course, I hope they choke on it.

reply to post by Sinny


How badly has it been over exagerrated though? Lots or not so much?

Reason i ask is because if am honest i know at least 3 people involved in regular benefit fraud. Now, as much as it annoys me and i want them catching out, i personally wouldn't blow the whistle on them (i have a very strange moral code!). I am fairly sure i am not the only person from the UK who is in the position either - if we are totally honest i would suggest that many of us know of people engaged in this sort of activity. Even if it is only low level, that is still a hell of a lot of money that could be clawed back and spent elsewhere.

I have to say though, i really want the super rich and corporations to pay proper tax. I don't agree with Hollande over in France - 75% is ridiculous unless your nation has services like Scandinavia! 50% with no exceptions for the wealthy is very fair though.

Procurement was and is still the biggest drain on resources over here though. "If selling to the NHS, whack a 100% surcharge on it" seems to be a popular mantra for example. Things like this could easily be cracked down on. Again, as a little example, years and years ago i had a summer job whilst at uni for a cleaning supplies firm. One of the contracts was with the NHS supplying fluff attracting cleaning mops (kind of a cross between a mop and a cloth). The static build up on them meant that all the little bits of fluff were attracted to them, quite a nifty bit of kit but they cost the company next to nothing to buy in. A box of those on this NHS contract sold every time for £4000 - and that is around 20 years ago. One of my friends on that degree course is now a senior civil servant attached the Health Department. I am realiably informed by him that in terms of procurement, things have got worse rather than better. Sort that out and we solve most of our problems in one fell swoop. The sad thing is though that i can't see that happening as their are too many fingers in the pie now for any decent reform.